Dow and S&P 500 hit all-time highs as Street ends record week on a high note

[Themius]

Wages are growing, but they are barely keeping up with inflation. Decades ago people were making more than people do now. A raw number doesn't mean shit when everything else is outpacing wages.

But spectral says they use bls cpi, you know the thing that has caused quite a bit of issues over the years with people constantly saying it needs updating and changing to properly capture the way people spend money but yeah...

[Independent voter]

Wages are growing, but they are barely keeping up with inflation. Decades ago people were making more than people do now. A raw number doesn't mean shit when everything else is outpacing wages.

With a 3% unemployment rate, it's much easier for an employee to quit and get a better job, than to wait for his current employer to give him a raise. This is what all those news articles leave out. People are quitting and getting better jobs.

[Themius]

Why are you dodging? you are smarter than this housing, debt, loans, family fortune etc. college and grad school aren't free /facepalm.

Which means you have to take out loans something Spectral seems to be ignoring... the price of school is up 300% from the 90s let alone the 80s with cost going up past inflation every year.



Gotta love that.

[Spectral]

Why are you dodging? you are smarter than this housing, debt, loans, family fortune etc. college and grad school aren't free /facepalm.

I don't know what you think I'm dodging. Are you looking for me to provide a fully itemized breakdown of every penny I had at the time? Those items:

Housing: ~$500/month for rent
Debt: Student loan debt, ~$15K, only interest payments required during grad school, pretty small amount
Other loans: ~$8K for a car
Family fortune: lol, sharply negative at that time
College expense: Partly covered by scholarship, partly financial aid, partly student loans (see the ~$15K above)
Graduate school: Actually is free, receive a stipend. Graduate research programs have tuition waivers.

[Draco-Onis]

I don't know what you think I'm dodging. Are you looking for me to provide a fully itemized breakdown of every penny I had at the time? Those items:

Housing: ~$500/month for rent
Debt: Student loan debt, ~$15K, only interest payments required during grad school, pretty small amount
Other loans: ~$8K for a car
Family fortune: lol, sharply negative at that time
College expense: Partly covered by scholarship, partly financial aid, partly student loans (see the ~$15K above)
Graduate school: Actually is free, receive a stipend. Graduate research programs have tuition waivers.

So basically you have no relations to the average person who went to college and then grad school, glad we cleared that up.

[Spectral]

Wages are growing, but they are barely keeping up with inflation. Decades ago people were making more than people do now. A raw number doesn't mean shit when everything else is outpacing wages.

I linked a pair of federal research data sets showing median inflation adjusted wages. I really don't get how so many of you can just keep repeating "inflation" as though anyone that gives a shit about the data hasn't already considered and adjusted for it.

[Themius]

I don't know what you think I'm dodging. Are you looking for me to provide a fully itemized breakdown of every penny I had at the time? Those items:

Housing: ~$500/month for rent
Debt: Student loan debt, ~$15K, only interest payments required during grad school, pretty small amount
Other loans: ~$8K for a car
Family fortune: lol, sharply negative at that time
College expense: Partly covered by scholarship, partly financial aid, partly student loans (see the ~$15K above)
Graduate school: Actually is free, receive a stipend. Graduate research programs have tuition waivers.

$500 really gets you nothing in my area, not even a room.

average debt is about 37k for 2016

As far as graduate school you were in a particular program most aren't... so very little relation to the average.

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I linked a pair of federal research data sets showing median inflation adjusted wages. I really don't get how so many of you can just keep repeating "inflation" as though anyone that gives a shit about the data hasn't already considered and adjusted for it.

Because there have been issues relating to CPI and the way they calculate things for many years...

[Spectral]

So basically you have no relations to the average person who went to college and then grad school, glad we cleared that up.

It's honestly hard for me to believe that you think this is a good retort.

Yes, my experience is quite a lot different than that of people that insist on living Brooklyn while getting journalism degrees from private schools they can't afford, I suppose.

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$500 really gets you nothing in my area, not even a room.

average debt is about 37k for 2016

As far as graduate school you were in a particular program most aren't... so very little relation to the average.

We're meandering at this point - I would not suggest that people who are planning to make 40th percentile incomes (which was what was being discussed) should rack up $40K in debt or that they should live in your area. People want to do a bunch of weird nitpicking about individual circumstances and try to make things deeply personal because they don't actually have any meaningful data to back their claims.

[Draco-Onis]

It's honestly hard for me to believe that you think this is a good retort.

Yes, my experience is quite a lot different than that of people that insist on living Brooklyn while getting journalism degrees from private schools they can't afford, I suppose.

The vast majority of people don't go to college and then grad school for practically free, the fact that you do not understand that you were the exception including your other numbers is mind boggling to me.

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We're meandering at this point - I would not suggest that people who are planning to make 40th percentile incomes (which was what was being discussed) should rack up $40K in debt or that they should live in your area. People want to do a bunch of weird nitpicking about individual circumstances and try to make things deeply personal because they don't actually have any meaningful data to back their claims.

But the point of this is to show the experience of most people not you there's the rub.

[Spectral]

The vast majority of people don't go to college and then grad school for practically free, the fact that you do not understand that you were the exception including your other numbers is mind boggling to me.

The undergrad price I cited hasn't changed much for in state tuition and need-based aid is still available. Nothing about what I cited isn't available, people just choose different paths. I certainly didn't choose a path that optimized for wealth - spending 11 years of life getting a B.S. and Ph.D. is low cost, but massive opportunity cost. Research doctoral programs pretty much all have tuition waivers though, I didn't luck into something special, it's the norm for research scientists.

Again though, I absolutely recognize that individual circumstances differ, which is why I prefer focusing on aggregated data. Living on $36K, which is the 40th percentile number for a full time worker, is absolutely feasible for an individual in most cities.

[Draco-Onis]

The undergrad price I cited hasn't changed much for in state tuition and need-based aid is still available. Nothing about what I cited isn't available, people just choose different paths. I certainly didn't choose a path that optimized for wealth - spending 11 years of life getting a B.S. and Ph.D. is low cost, but massive opportunity cost.

Again though, I absolutely recognize that individual circumstances differ, which is why I prefer focusing on aggregated data. Living on $36K, which is the 40th percentile number for a full time worker, is absolutely feasible for an individual in most cities.

The cost of college and grad school have increase significantly, there's literally trillions of dollars of debt proving you otherwise. Your experience in terms of over head cost is not the same as the average even back then again you seem disconnected from reality.

[Themius]

The undergrad price I cited hasn't changed much for in state tuition and need-based aid is still available. Nothing about what I cited isn't available, people just choose different paths. I certainly didn't choose a path that optimized for wealth - spending 11 years of life getting a B.S. and Ph.D. is low cost, but massive opportunity cost.

Again though, I absolutely recognize that individual circumstances differ, which is why I prefer focusing on aggregated data. Living on $36K, which is the 40th percentile number for a full time worker, is absolutely feasible for an individual in most cities.

It isn't far from poverty... you may qualify for some form of welfare with a 36k salary. For a single person I think it is hovering around 28-30k in my state.

Now imagine that you make 31k and don't qualify for any assistance.

Let's take into account the average rent here for a one bedroom is about 1300-1400 so that's about 15600 gone in rent

Take into account basic things such as a phone and internet plan is about 2100.

Factor in health insurance, I'll use my friend as an example who I think pays like 225 a month (through her employer) that's 2700.

factor in travel to New York and back on a monthly pass and you're talking about 1440 or so

Loan repayment average is 3360 a year (280 a month)

add in cost for food which averages about 250 a month for a single person and we have 3000

gas electric water, in my state is about 1896 a year

and we are at 30,096 without accounting for taxes, entertainment, buying clothes

In effect this person will be in debt... A single person after taxes will make about 26,086.

[Spectral]

It isn't far from poverty... you may qualify for some form of welfare with a 36k salary. For a single person I think it is hovering around 28-30k in my state.

Now imagine that you make 31k and don't qualify for any assistance.

Let's take into account the average rent here for a one bedroom is about 1300-1400 so that's about 15600 gone in rent

Take into account basic things such as a phone and internet plan is about 2100.

Factor in health insurance, I'll use my friend as an example who I think pays like 225 a month (through her employer) that's 2700.

factor in travel to New York and back on a monthly pass and you're talking about 1440 or so

Loan repayment average is 3360 a year (280 a month)

add in cost for food which averages about 250 a month for a single person and we have 3000

gas electric water, in my state is about 1896 a year

and we are at 30,096 without accounting for taxes, entertainment, buying clothes

In effect this person will be in debt... A single person after taxes will make about 26,086.

Yeah, people that insist on living in the NYC area making mediocre salaries, paying high rent, with big loans probably aren't going to do great.

I realize this is going to be hard to believe, but most people don't live in New York. I really wouldn't recommend to anyone that they should rack up student loans that they have no plan to afford and then move to NYC and live without roommates. People that make a series of bad choices are going to have bad outcomes. If you're seeking to individualize, one can just as easily flip this around to looking at a married couple with both people making $30K and not insisting on living in New York. A married couple in Des Moines with both people making $30K will live pretty well.

New York City being an unlivable shithole isn't a federal policy problem.

[Draco-Onis]

Yeah, people that insist on living in the NYC area making mediocre salaries, paying high rent, with big loans probably aren't going to do great.

I realize this is going to be hard to believe, but most people don't live in New York. I really wouldn't recommend to anyone that they should rack up student loans that they have no plan to afford and then move to NYC and live without roommates. People that make a series of bad choices are going to have bad outcomes. If you're seeking to individualize, one can just as easily flip this around to looking at a married couple with both people making $30K and not insisting on living in New York. A married couple in Des Moines with both people making $30K will live pretty well.

But that is false the vast majority of the US population lives in states like New York not lol Des Moines Iowa.

[Spectral]

But that is false the vast majority of the US population lives in states like New York not lol Des Moines Iowa.

New York state isn't expensive. The other moderate sized cities in New York (Rochester and Buffalo) are some of the cheaper decent sized cities in the country.

Most Americans actually do live in places that are more like Des Moines than New York City. Here's a good fact sheet on the topic:

The average population density of the U.S. is 87 people per square mile. The average population density of metropolitan areas (MSA) is 283 people per square mile; in New York City, the population density is 27,012 people per square mile. Guttenberg, New Jersey has the greatest density of housing units (24,195) per square mile of land area.6

The population density in Des Moines is 2,200 per square mile.

I do realize that for a New Yorker, even considering the possibility that life might actually be fine in Des Moines is really quite irrelevant though - those aren't people, they're what people fly over on the way to San Francisco!

[Themius]

Yeah, people that insist on living in the NYC area making mediocre salaries, paying high rent, with big loans probably aren't going to do great.

I realize this is going to be hard to believe, but most people don't live in New York. I really wouldn't recommend to anyone that they should rack up student loans that they have no plan to afford and then move to NYC and live without roommates. People that make a series of bad choices are going to have bad outcomes. If you're seeking to individualize, one can just as easily flip this around to looking at a married couple with both people making $30K and not insisting on living in New York. A married couple in Des Moines with both people making $30K will live pretty well.

New York City being an unlivable shithole isn't a federal policy problem.

Most people live around central city hubs... so this idea that "most don't live in New York" yes that is true but most do live around a central city hub and deal with similar issues.

For instance if you move further out in jersey say...30-80 miles away from the city you can easily find rent for about 800-1000 the issue then is that travel goes from being 1440 a year to about 5760, then if you want to cheapest rents you need to live away from the station which means you now require a car. note that I left out owning. car in my above example if you decide to own a car and drive say within about 5-10 miles of the station we are now talking about about 150 a month for the car plus 150-200 for insurance so now we have another 4200. (this is assuming a car about 7-8k)

So by moving further away from the city and not requiring a car we have just gone from spending 1440 in travel and spending an extra 300-500

to spending 5760 a month in travel + 4200 for owning a car and insurance (not even counting gas and maintenance) and we are now talking about spending an extra 8520 a year or 710 a month to move away from the city.

Now you can not own a car and instead use uber average $9 per trip so $18 a day so 2340 a year 195 ish a month and no insurance.

So you're spending 8100/675 a month to move away from the city.

[Spectral]

Most people live around central city hubs... so this idea that "most don't live in New York" yes that is true but most do live around a central city hub and deal with similar issues.

For instance if you move further out in jersey say...30-80 miles away from the city you can easily find rent for about 800-1000 the issue then is that travel goes from being 1440 a year to about 5760, then if you want to cheapest rents you need to live away from the station which means you now require a car. note that I left out owning. car in my above example if you decide to own a car and drive say within about 5-10 miles of the station we are now talking about about 150 a month for the car plus 150-200 for insurance so now we have another 4200.

For by moving further away from the city and not requiring a car we have just gone from spending 1440 in travel and spending an extra 300-500

to spending 5760 a month in travel + 4200 for owning a car and insurance (not even counting gas and maintenance) and we are now talking about spending an extra 8520 a year or 710 a month to move away from the city.

Dude, your entire perspective on this is warped by your world revolving around New York City. There's a big country out there. You don't have to spend hours a day commuting into NYC to make $30K. If someone does, they're probably going to live a shitty life.

On a side note, what in world did you do that your insurance costs that? I pay ~$45/month. I guess this might just be one of the perks of living in Jersey or something.

[Draco-Onis]

New York state isn't expensive. The other moderate sized cities in New York (Rochester and Buffalo) are some of the cheaper decent sized cities in the country.

Most Americans actually do live in places that are more like Des Moines than New York City. Here's a good fact sheet on the topic:

The population density in Des Moines is 2,200 per square mile.

I do realize that for a New Yorker, even considering the possibility that life might actually be fine in Des Moines is really quite irrelevant though - those aren't people, they're what people fly over on the way to San Francisco!

well most people like to be around well people not empty fields for miles on end.

[Spectral]

well most people like to be around well people not empty fields for miles on end.

Des Moines is home to a quarter million people and looks like this:



But please, keep telling me that I'm the one that's out of touch with how Americans live. It seems like your position really, sincerely is that there's no point living anywhere other than New York or San Francisco - I thought I was joking, but here we are.

[Themius]

Dude, your entire perspective on this is warped by your world revolving around New York City. There's a big country out there. You don't have to spend hours a day commuting into NYC to make $30K. If someone does, they're probably going to live a shitty life.

There are other factors to include that are also culture. I frankly do not feel comfortable not living in diverse areas. I would not feel at home in a more conservative red state as a gay minority around a bunch of Americans.

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Des Moines is home to a quarter million people and looks like this:



But please, keep telling me that I'm the one that's out of touch with how Americans live. It seems like your position really, sincerely is that there's no point living anywhere other than New York or San Francisco - I thought I was joking, but here we are.

Looks like a small city with a spread out suburbs... looks really small...

Mostly low rises terribly spacing, god if the city ever grows they need to not make the mistake of constantly spreading like LA and instead build up.