Pro-Tips for the developers for WoWs future game design

[Fred Skinner]

PvP has it's own rewards - pvp gear, pve has its own rewards - pve gear. Even pet battles have their own fitting reward: pets! Professions have their own reward: profession gear. Would i want to raid mythic for pets? NO. Would I want to pet battle for mythic raid gear? Heh? Why?

Well, imagine, you had a currency system, and could get reputation as well from all those activities. You would do pvp battles for a faction, do quests for them, or run dungeons or raids. While you do any of those activities, you gain an amount of currency, which you can use to buy equipment you need to progress or vanity items.

You also had faction vendors, who would sell faction specific items. Based on that, you chould simply chose whatever activity you would like to get your character geared. And whatever you play, it helps in character progression.

I thought you want different STORIES as you level up on alts, or decisions (player agency) with quests. THAT'S REPLAYABILITY. Lol turns out it all comes down to "shitty" rewards. How innovative... nope.

Well, replayability also is based on how many pathes you have available. If those quests become dull, just go and play some pvp. If pvp becomes dull, play dungeons. This offers way more diversity than the reward being locked to one single activity. Yet, you still work on the character progression your planned from start. No matter if you change your playstyle rapidly.

[Popastique]

*Balance does not matter in a RPG* - yeah, right ....
MMORPG without balance changes every now and then will be a chaotic mess.

[Lei]

Well, imagine, you had a currency system, and could get reputation as well from all those activities. You would do pvp battles for a faction, do quests for them, or run dungeons or raids. While you do any of those activities, you gain an amount of currency, which you can use to buy equipment you need to progress or vanity items.

You also had faction vendors, who would sell faction specific items. Based on that, you chould simply chose whatever activity you would like to get your character geared. And whatever you play, it helps in character progression.

This is MoP basically. Everything from pet battles to scenarios and raids gave valor points. It was a nice touch to the game but nothing ground breaking. Do you know what was groundbreaking? COMMENDATIONS for alts when you reached revered with a faction. Many dailies per factions that often changed spicing up your daily chores. Progressing reputations that had small stories as you gained rep.

Well, replayability also is based on how many pathes you have available. If those quests become dull, just go and play some pvp. If pvp becomes dull, play dungeons. This offers way more diversity than the reward being locked to one single activity. Yet, you still work on the character progression your planned from start. No matter if you change your playstyle rapidly.

I completed battlemaster in 2010. Haven't touched bgs (or pvp) ever since. With 8.2, alterac valley got a new toy that you can purchase in the preparation phase from a vendor. So me, the big battle master thought, okay, AV as alliance is easy right? So let's go. 5 battles and 5 pathetic loses later (horde basically mopped the floor with us) when all my playtime was stunned stunned stunned feared stunned you're dead, and never getting into a fresh alterac valley I was like fuck this. This whole parade took me 2 hours, and got ZERO thing out of it. Not even a mark of honor, probably not a single conquest point either. But I'm sure this pvp is enjoyable for some (the mopping side), as I hear pvp is in the best place it's ever been? So these "choices" of yours are very shortsighted. Because I'm guessing if I were to pick PvP instead of dailies I would only get reward if I win? For that, a whole lot of things have to change that is so much deeper - and probably unfixable at this point - than "Just do what you want!" *rainbowspongebob*.

[Fred Skinner]

So these "choices" of yours are very shortsighted. Because I'm guessing if I were to pick PvP instead of dailies I would only get reward if I win?

I would change the reward system for pvp to getting more for a win, but still something for a lose. Currently, you only get rewards if you win, which is a rather bad solution, correct.

Mastering a challenge will always give you more currency. While losing would never let you gain nothing. A mythic raid boss will yield a large amount of currency, while an lfr boss would yield a small amount.

Time effort would be honored. And skill even more.

For that, a whole lot of things have to change that is so much deeper - and probably unfixable at this point - than "Just do what you want!" *rainbowspongebob*.

I think "Just do what you want" when you gain almost the same result for time played is a key change for the future of world of warcraft.

[Alydael]

I assembled some guidelines for the WoW developers for their future work.

Let's start:

1.) Most of the players which play the game are no mythic raiders and will never become such
2.) Most of the players which play the game are no rated PVP players and will never become such
3.) Most of the players give a shit about competetive gameplay
4.) Only a small niche amount of players ever watched eSports.
5.) Balance does not matter in a RPG
6.) Streamers like Asmongold and their followers who want to make WoW hardcore are a small but loud minority
7.) Most of the players do not play high key mythic dungeons
8.) Most of the players are not in organized raiding or PVP guilds
9.) Most of the players give a shit about the question which pro-gamer group won the Arena finals
10.) Gaming is thought to be fun and not to be about chores. Sending the same turtles into the water every day is not fun.
11.) The level of engagement is more interesting than the reward
12.) People who have to play in groups or either they would not get the best rewards and who are introverts play against their nature and become toxic at some point
13.) World of Warcraft destroyed the relationship of thousands of couples
14.) World of Warcraft is addictive, and made people unemployed. Less today, as the game allows anyone to progress somehow without the need to give up real life. Yet, that is still existent at high endgame level.
15.) Games are something you do in your sparetime, after work, and for most of us nothing that should replace real life
16.) The skinner box effect creates even more addicts. The question is why Blizzard utilizes it that massively?
17.) The blood of the game are not 13 hours playing addicts, but the people who play 3 hours every 2 days doing some content. That is who the game should cater to. Entirely.
18.) Noone who plays LFR to see the content wants a challenge in LFR or even wipe there.
19.) People who play solo want to play solo, and not in matchmade groups.
20.) MMORPG does not mean "Massive enforced organized Group role playing game".

Thats all for now. Probably i add more later.

Edit: To make this a discussion, what do you guys think about those tips? What are your tips for the developers?

I do agree with you that WOW Devs make the mistake of wasting time developing content for a small variety of players. It's funny, because they gave that speech where they basically said "There may be some 7ft people, but you don't design airline seats for 7ft people." Which is entirely correct and a great point! Yet they still do it.

I have two small tips for the devs that I think will encompass all your points:

1) Collect data on what players are doing! You run the game- you should know exactly what content players are doing, how long they are doing it, etc. Make your plans based on that data. The data always tells the story. Don't make your plans based on what players "say" they want (they are mostly lying).

2) You don't have to reinvent the wheel with all your systems every xpac. A system players like (like the Legion system) could "evolve"- it doesn't have to be completely scrapped and replaced with something players might or might not like.

[Fred Skinner]

I do agree with you that WOW Devs make the mistake of wasting time developing content for a small variety of players. It's funny, because they gave that speech where they basically said "There may be some 7ft people, but you don't design airline seats for 7ft people." Which is entirely correct and a great point! Yet they still do it.

I have two small tips for the devs that I think will encompass all your points:

1) Collect data on what players are doing! You run the game- you should know exactly what content players are doing, how long they are doing it, etc. Make your plans based on that data. The data always tells the story. Don't make your plans based on what players "say" they want (they are mostly lying).

2) You don't have to reinvent the wheel with all your systems every xpac. A system players like (like the Legion system) could "evolve"- it doesn't have to be completely scrapped and replaced with something players might or might not like.

Good points. Thank you for adding them.

[Lollis]

I assembled some guidelines for the WoW developers for their future work.

Let's start:

1.) Most of the players which play the game are no mythic raiders and will never become such
2.) Most of the players which play the game are no rated PVP players and will never become such
3.) Most of the players give a shit about competetive gameplay
4.) Only a small niche amount of players ever watched eSports.
5.) Balance does not matter in a RPG
6.) Streamers like Asmongold and their followers who want to make WoW hardcore are a small but loud minority
7.) Most of the players do not play high key mythic dungeons
8.) Most of the players are not in organized raiding or PVP guilds
9.) Most of the players give a shit about the question which pro-gamer group won the Arena finals
10.) Gaming is thought to be fun and not to be about chores. Sending the same turtles into the water every day is not fun.
11.) The level of engagement is more interesting than the reward
12.) People who have to play in groups or either they would not get the best rewards and who are introverts play against their nature and become toxic at some point
13.) World of Warcraft destroyed the relationship of thousands of couples
14.) World of Warcraft is addictive, and made people unemployed. Less today, as the game allows anyone to progress somehow without the need to give up real life. Yet, that is still existent at high endgame level.
15.) Games are something you do in your sparetime, after work, and for most of us nothing that should replace real life
16.) The skinner box effect creates even more addicts. The question is why Blizzard utilizes it that massively?
17.) The blood of the game are not 13 hours playing addicts, but the people who play 3 hours every 2 days doing some content. That is who the game should cater to. Entirely.
18.) Noone who plays LFR to see the content wants a challenge in LFR or even wipe there.
19.) People who play solo want to play solo, and not in matchmade groups.
20.) MMORPG does not mean "Massive enforced organized Group role playing game".

Thats all for now. Probably i add more later.

Edit: To make this a discussion, what do you guys think about those tips? What are your tips for the developers?

So, you want a game with.
1. No difficult raids
2. No rated PvP
3. Competitive gameplay (or is this supposed to be 'don't give a shit'?)
4. Nothing esportsy
5. No balancing
6. No opinions
7. No dungeons other than standard difficulty.
8. No raids or pvp other than pugs.
9. More spam about who won arenas (or is this supposed to be 'don't give a shit'?)
10. Less repeatable content.
11. More things to do but the reward can be dogshit.
12. Ability to gear to the max through solo play.
13. Free couples counselling
14. Nothing to make people want to play.
15. Do very little and be godlike by playing an hour a day.
16. No identifiable rewards for doing something. Ie no grind whatsoever?
17. See 15.
18. No trash in LFR and bosses do zero damage.
19. Everything can be done on your own.
20. Um, okay.

Sound great. A game you can login a few times per week, has zero challenge, you get the best gear possible practically straight away meaning the gear might as well all be the same ilevel anyway. There is no PvP whatsoever unless you are alone, same with PvE, guilds and communities are non existent. There is a ton of completely unique quests that you can only do once but they don't give you anything for your time or money. Amazing game.

Have you tried Guild Wars 2?

Your game would be dead on arrival. If you want a linear story game that you play alone, where gear doesn't really matter and everything is trivial as fuck, AND you can play a couple of hours at most per week, maybe play something like Mass Effect.

[Xath]

If they are aware of it, why did they add the same kind of chores again in 8.2?

And why is the best gear still available from organized gameplay only?

Better question why do you need the best gear if you aren't partaking in the content it's needed for. My pear diver army was half sub 340 alts and managed to clear naz quests pretty dang easy.

[kaminaris]

Tell me please, when is blizzard going to start to respect their customers as smart individuals?

When people actually act smart. Average players are just that, average. For example you know why gem minigame was nerfed? Well, because for some, it was impossible to line up 5 gems of same color.

[Lei]

When people actually act smart. Average players are just that, average. For example you know why gem minigame was nerfed? Well, because for some, it was impossible to line up 5 gems of same color.

And maybe it didn't worth to fuck around with it for that long for 3 manapearls / 50 war resources / 75 reps. You kinda forget how beta testing happens on live nowadays.

[toffmcsoft]

Except Classic doesn't address even a single "point". It's 10 times more casual unfriendly than BfA.

And that's the problem with BFA, it's too friendly for Casual players.
You could sign on for 2 hours a week and be perfectly okay.

Retail wow has turned into a casino, it's a joke.

[Elias01]

If they are aware of it, why did they add the same kind of chores again in 8.2?

And why is the best gear still available from organized gameplay only?

Becouse it is not and you dont need best gear if you dont do organized stuff? You should never get better gear for sake of progressing you should get it becouse you overcome challenge.

- - - Updated - - -

I do agree with you that WOW Devs make the mistake of wasting time developing content for a small variety of players. It's funny, because they gave that speech where they basically said "There may be some 7ft people, but you don't design airline seats for 7ft people." Which is entirely correct and a great point! Yet they still do it.

I have two small tips for the devs that I think will encompass all your points:

1) Collect data on what players are doing! You run the game- you should know exactly what content players are doing, how long they are doing it, etc. Make your plans based on that data. The data always tells the story. Don't make your plans based on what players "say" they want (they are mostly lying).

2) You don't have to reinvent the wheel with all your systems every xpac. A system players like (like the Legion system) could "evolve"- it doesn't have to be completely scrapped and replaced with something players might or might not like.

What are you guys talking about? Everything he listed is 100% BFA expansion.

[Sithalos]

I got a stomach ulcer reading this. Thanks OP.

TLDR: The ramblings of a shit player.

Pretty much, yeah.

[Alydael]

Becouse it is not and you dont need best gear if you dont do organized stuff? You should never get better gear for sake of progressing you should get it becouse you overcome challenge.

- - - Updated - - -



What are you guys talking about? Everything he listed is 100% BFA expansion.

1) Collecting data is independent of what expansion it is. You can collect data at any time. If I was running the game, I would know exactly what activities get me the most bang for my Dev time bucks, and which ones get very little (or no) participation.

2) They reinvent the wheel every x pac. They scrap the systems (and the gear becomes basically worthless) and they try something new that they think players will love. It just flopped spectacularly with BfA because everyone loved the Legion system.

They don't have to do that though....... Player feedback was extremely positive on the Legion system- there is no way they should have scrapped it. The truth of that is- they didn't know how to add to it (evolve it) without making it too powerful or too much work for themselves. I think all the players realized that (while telling them not to scrap it) that is why there was so much backlash on it.

Also, to your first point, why should there not be other challenging, gear worthy game play outside of organized play? the Mage tower was a smashing success (as well as the Brawlers club), why not give the players what they want actually.......

[Sansnom]

Sound great. A game you can login a few times per week, has zero challenge, you get the best gear possible practically straight away meaning the gear might as well all be the same ilevel anyway. There is no PvP whatsoever unless you are alone, same with PvE, guilds and communities are non existent. There is a ton of completely unique quests that you can only do once but they don't give you anything for your time or money. Amazing game.

Not necessary. The poster did not state to remove mythic or hard content, merely, suggesting the content being developed should reflect the current player base. If 99% of the players do not raid mythic then there is an argument of why make it. If it requires 1% of the resources, fine, if it requires 40% resources, then is this justifiable? Not suggesting those are real numbers, just examples.

The game is not entirely for the casual players, but neither it is entirely for the more dedicated players.

[Izzyfurious]

I love opinion biased posts like this, they always shows how self entitled some people that play this game is.