9.0 General Discussion

[Queen of Hamsters]

I am confident it is Grand Empress Shek'Zara, nothing in 8.3 has come as close to melting my computer as a raid group engaging her does. And you can feel the effects halfway across the zone. Even looking in her general direction when she is pulled freezes up the game.

Now that you mention it, I don't experience that kind of lag in the Vale when the world boss isn't up... Not to mention, I don't experience nearly that amount of lag in Uldum even when IT has the world boss up...

That Grand Empress sounds like the culprit.

[Edward Wu]

The real trump card of the latest mantid Swarm - weaponized lag.

[Taeldorian]

The thing with lag is that it is a very subjective experience. And all it takes is for a single person to complain about lag for someon to start an echo chamber of a moment where they experienced lag. This coupled with player perception near constantly filtering out small annnoyances like past problems with lag leads to a situation where the lag problems can easily be blown out of proportion.

That being said, i have experienced lag. Though mostly just in Vale, and again, i am confident it is a problem with Shek'zara melting the servers.

Have you done battle for Nazjatar at all? It’s completely unplayable. You hit a button and wait ~10-15 seconds for it to go off. There’s a massive delay because the servers can’t handle so many people in one zone. Same goes for the 40v40 brawl. I can get you evidence of this if needed but it’s been a consistent problem all expansion. There’s been random spikes of lag too, sometimes randomly in drustvar and everyone in general will ask if the game is lagging (because it is).

Again the video details things pretty nicely. Though I have no idea if his assumption of what causes the lag is correct or not.

I’m not blaming sharding for the lag to be clear, I just don’t believe that it has any place in an mmorpg. Logging in and seeing Boralus completely empty on Stormrage is not a good experience. Sometimes it’s completely packed and I can’t see my own nameplate, sometimes it’s a ghost town (log in times being the same from my end), which is due to how sharding functions (as blizzard has explained). I don’t know if layering is the solution, but the effort to conserve the community feel is why I’d prefer to have that.

[Merryck]

Try playing the ongoing TM vs SS brawl and tell me if it's playable.

Preach is right - all the layers of RNG and procs are breaking the game. Too many dice rolls.

That said, it should be better in Shadowlands without azerite gear, essences, corrupted gear (though it will be present in some rendition, hopefully with less procs.)

It's hilarious that up to 60% of your damage can come from RNG procs from the aforementioned sources. Good riddance.

[Sondrelk]

Have you done battle for Nazjatar at all? It’s completely unplayable. You hit a button and wait ~10-15 seconds for it to go off. There’s a massive delay because the servers can’t handle so many people in one zone. Same goes for the 40v40 brawl. I can get you evidence of this if needed but it’s been a consistent problem all expansion. There’s been random spikes of lag too, sometimes randomly in drustvar and everyone in general will ask if the game is lagging (because it is).

Again the video details things pretty nicely. Though I have no idea if his assumption of what causes the lag is correct or not.

I’m not blaming sharding for the lag to be clear, I just don’t believe that it has any place in an mmorpg. Logging in and seeing Boralus completely empty on Stormrage is not a good experience. Sometimes it’s completely packed and I can’t see my own nameplate, sometimes it’s a ghost town (log in times being the same from my end), which is due to how sharding functions (as blizzard has explained). I don’t know if layering is the solution, but the effort to conserve the community feel is why I’d prefer to have that.

Only ever done Battle ofr Nazjatar a couple times, didnt particularily remember much lag, though it might have been a small group for all i know.
Often the problem is very definitely a massive influx of players. You notice it more often in Warmode for this reason. A large group of players will enter the shard for a large group, either for PvP or for world bosses, which will decrease performance in the relevant area.

For the ghost town problem, i don't think Layering will work much differently from Sharding in that regard. Given the way it supposedly works is by filling one layer at a time, which means your layer might be the most recent. Not ot mention what can easily happen as well, all the players simply being somewhere else, like Stormwind.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Try playing the ongoing TM vs SS brawl and tell me if it's playable.

Preach is right - all the layers of RNG and procs are breaking the game. Too many dice rolls.

That said, it should be better in Shadowlands without azerite gear, essences, corrupted gear (though it will be present in some rendition, hopefully with less procs.)

I'd rather wait for more official information on that. Preach is loud...but he aint heelsbabyface. I don't hear much lag from things like that except maybe one Nazjatar battle(Guildie mentioned it) and well the Vale.

[Taeldorian]

Only ever done Battle ofr Nazjatar a couple times, didnt particularily remember much lag, though it might have been a small group for all i know.
Often the problem is very definitely a massive influx of players. You notice it more often in Warmode for this reason. A large group of players will enter the shard for a large group, either for PvP or for world bosses, which will decrease performance in the relevant area.

For the ghost town problem, i don't think Layering will work much differently from Sharding in that regard. Given the way it supposedly works is by filling one layer at a time, which means your layer might be the most recent. Not ot mention what can easily happen as well, all the players simply being somewhere else, like Stormwind.

“Instead of balancing players around shards of zones and combining players from multiple realms, layering will allow realms to create a separate instance of themselves to balance their own population. However, unlike sharding, once in a layer, players won't leave this layer in favor of a better one whenever they move or change zones, removing the awkward phasing present in retail. The only way to change a layer will be to enter a group, which will have all players from the group in the same layer.”

This is why I believe it would be an upgrade over sharding. This was taken from their explanation of Layering. Sharding is a fair bit different when you compare their explanations for both systems. A “better shard” means more empty, so not necessarily better if you actually want to see players.

[Sondrelk]

“Instead of balancing players around shards of zones and combining players from multiple realms, layering will allow realms to create a separate instance of themselves to balance their own population. However, unlike sharding, once in a layer, players won't leave this layer in favor of a better one whenever they move or change zones, removing the awkward phasing present in retail. The only way to change a layer will be to enter a group, which will have all players from the group in the same layer.”

This is why I believe it would be better. This was taken from their explanation of Layering. Sharding is a fair bit different when you compare their explanations for both systems.

That's the thing though. They are not self-balancing. Meaning that while you are likely to be in a layer with loads of people, you could easily end up in a layer with extremely few. And then you are stuck there until either more people join it or you join a different group.


That being said, if Blizzard deems it a better solution i could see it being used in Shadowlands over Sharding. It is after all a relatively new technology, the reason we migth not have seen it in BfA might be because it is generally bad practice to change a core system in the middle of an expansion.

[George Costanza]

The lag in the Vale of EB is so bloody annoying, I don't know what causes it but....its pushing my patience.

It is honestly the worst thing about this patch. And its Always Vale. It makes the GCD feel like its a 3 sec delay instead of 1 for me .

[Taeldorian]

That's the thing though. They are not self-balancing. Meaning that while you are likely to be in a layer with loads of people, you could easily end up in a layer with extremely few. And then you are stuck there until either more people join it or you join a different group.


That being said, if Blizzard deems it a better solution i could see it being used in Shadowlands over Sharding. It is after all a relatively new technology, the reason we migth not have seen it in BfA might be because it is generally bad practice to change a core system in the middle of an expansion.

Unless you’re on a dead server, most layers will fill up even if you originally end up in a dead one. They cap layers, so in classic there were 4 or 5 layers on high pop servers. With that being the case, if they continued that and capped the amount of layers we have on each server, they’d eventually all fill out. Keep in mind though I’m speaking as a player from Stormrage which is an insanely busy server. They also slowly took away layers and merged them together which is something they could do in the case of dead layers.

Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking as well. I highly highly doubt they’d even make an effort to remove sharding or anything tech related mid expansion, that’d be a big undertaking (I assume) and could potentially cause big issues. It’s something they’d have to do way ahead of time I think.

[Sondrelk]

Unless you’re on a dead server, most layers will fill up even if you originally end up in a dead one. They cap layers, so in classic there were 4 layers on high pop servers. With that being the case, if they continued that and capped the amount of layers we have on each server, they’d eventually all fill out. Keep in mind though I’m speaking as a player from Stormrage which is an insanely busy server.

Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking as well. I highly highly doubt they’d even make an effort to remove sharding or anything tech related mid expansion, that’d be a big undertaking (I assume) and could potentially cause big issues. It’s something they’d have to do way ahead of time I think.

I am on a mostly dead server though, one with an extremely unbalanced leaning towards Horde. And i dread the possibility of my experience leaning ever more heavily towards having to compete against Horde for World Quests while being surprised each time i see an Alliance player.

And that is the main problem with Layering compared to Sharding. Whereas Sharding is a catchall fix to a plethora of server balancing isseus, layering is mostly a fix to a single problem that Classic had at launch.

[huth]

From what i remember it is a build that can be used for promotional materials. More specifically it is on given to those in charge of advertising to use because it is considered moderately stable and posessing a reasonable amount of stuff to show off.


That being said i could be completely wrong, been such a long time since i read up on this. But i am pretty damn sure it is something to that effect.

IIRC, it's the build that goes out to hardware manufacturers et al for testing and such.

[Sondrelk]

IIRC, it's the build that goes out to hardware manufacturers et al for testing and such.

I feel like i was pretty close.

[Ticj]

I suppose the main difference that makes Sharding more appealing ot Retail compared to Layering is that while superficially similar, the problem they attempt to fix are slightly different.

Layering is a bandaid fix to servers being too full at any one given time.
Sharding is a solution to servers being unbalanced, realms being too empty or realms being too large.

Just because something is a solution doesn't mean it is a good one. Sharding fixed issues of unbalanced/empty realms at the cost of making nearly every player you meet in the world faceless.

I will never understand why they completely abandoned the idea of connected realms. It fixed these issues while allowing for a continuous world.

[Eurhetemec]

Have you done battle for Nazjatar at all? It’s completely unplayable. You hit a button and wait ~10-15 seconds for it to go off. There’s a massive delay because the servers can’t handle so many people in one zone. Same goes for the 40v40 brawl. I can get you evidence of this if needed but it’s been a consistent problem all expansion. There’s been random spikes of lag too, sometimes randomly in drustvar and everyone in general will ask if the game is lagging (because it is).

This has been going on in WoW since Vanilla. It's super-fucking-weird to act like it's a BfA thing.

I’m not blaming sharding for the lag to be clear, I just don’t believe that it has any place in an mmorpg. Logging in and seeing Boralus completely empty on Stormrage is not a good experience. Sometimes it’s completely packed and I can’t see my own nameplate, sometimes it’s a ghost town (log in times being the same from my end), which is due to how sharding functions (as blizzard has explained). I don’t know if layering is the solution, but the effort to conserve the community feel is why I’d prefer to have that.

Lag has no place in an MMORPG?

That's a bit like saying "CRIME HAS NO PLACE IN A CITY!!!!". It's like, yeah, in an ideal world, in a fantastical utopia, there will be no crime. In a fantastical utopia of an MMO, there will be no lag. But fuck me mate, one of the defining traits of MMOs has been lag. Acting like it's some sort of new, horrifying thing is just nutso. It may be new on your server, but it isn't new to WoW.

Also, what you're describing does not sound like lag, it sounds like you're loading from HDD or something.

[Taeldorian]

This has been going on in WoW since Vanilla. It's super-fucking-weird to act like it's a BfA thing.



Lag has no place in an MMORPG?

That's a bit like saying "CRIME HAS NO PLACE IN A CITY!!!!". It's like, yeah, in an ideal world, in a fantastical utopia, there will be no crime. In a fantastical utopia of an MMO, there will be no lag. But fuck me mate, one of the defining traits of MMOs has been lag. Acting like it's some sort of new, horrifying thing is just nutso. It may be new on your server, but it isn't new to WoW.

Also, what you're describing does not sound like lag, it sounds like you're loading from HDD or something.

Lmao you read my post and thought I said lag has no place in an mmorpg? Are you blind man? I said separating players to the extent of placing them in completely dead zones that -should- be extremely populated with players has no place in an mmorpg. The fact you even thought that’s what I said blows my mind. I’m not even sure I want to respond to the rest of this garbage, imagine misreading a post and acting like this much of an ass while doing so. Jesus man.

And no, I’m not loading the game from an HDD, every example I gave of lag resulting in unplayable content is a widespread and well known issue within the game. The game has always had a huge problem when a large amount of players are in a single zone, hence why ashran/battle for Nazjatar are two well known lag related issues that lead to an unplayable experience. Not my fault your ears/eyes are closed, I can provide evidence of these issues as well like I said before.

You need to read posts way better before responding and name calling. Super weird bud.

[Eurhetemec]

Try playing the ongoing TM vs SS brawl and tell me if it's playable.

Preach is right - all the layers of RNG and procs are breaking the game. Too many dice rolls.

No, he isn't, and this statement on your part is born out of ignorance, I'm afraid. Sorry, but it is. You every try that brawl in Legion? Mmmm? No? Because it was exactly the fucking same. Exactly as "unplayable" (except it is playable for anyone who has played MMOs since the dawn age, when they were all like this in large battles, except DAoC). Trying to blame RNG and procs and so on is just really ignorant. It's sad to hear a major YouTuber is so ignorant, frankly.

- - - Updated - - -

Lmao you read my post and thought I said lag has no place in an mmorpg? Are you blind man? I said separating players to the extent of placing them in completely dead zones that -should- be extremely populated with players has no place in an mmorpg. I’m not even sure I want to respond to the rest of this garbage, imagine misreading a post and acting like this much of an ass while doing so. Jesus man

Sorry I misread that bit, but the rest of your post is still super-weird. Lag isn't new with BfA, and you're acting like it is.

And the thing you're describing as lag? Well, that's a perfect description of me loading into Dalaran in Legion, before I got an SSD. You're running off an SSD right?

[Queen of Hamsters]

Just because something is a solution doesn't mean it is a good one. Sharding fixed issues of unbalanced/empty realms at the cost of making nearly every player you meet in the world faceless.

I will never understand why they completely abandoned the idea of connected realms. It fixed these issues while allowing for a continuous world.

Probably due to naming issues, and sharding being a better solution all-round.

As someone playing on a High pop server and before that, a low pop, I can't say I ever kept track of every player on my realm. Some I'd remember, but most were still faceless. Humans are able to comfortably keep track of about 150 people in a society. And that's IRL, where you meet people, learn their real names etc.

Nah, I much prefer the zones are as lively as they are now (and if I go into a fresh shard, it fills up eventually) rather than have the situation in leveling zones prior to Sharding. Although, I mostly see players from my server thanks to the pop count (as in no server tag to the names).

[Taeldorian]

No, he isn't, and this statement on your part is born out of ignorance, I'm afraid. Sorry, but it is. You every try that brawl in Legion? Mmmm? No? Because it was exactly the fucking same. Exactly as "unplayable" (except it is playable for anyone who has played MMOs since the dawn age, when they were all like this in large battles, except DAoC). Trying to blame RNG and procs and so on is just really ignorant. It's sad to hear a major YouTuber is so ignorant, frankly.

- - - Updated - - -



Sorry I misread that bit, but the rest of your post is still super-weird. Lag isn't new with BfA, and you're acting like it is.

And the thing you're describing as lag? Well, that's a perfect description of me loading into Dalaran in Legion, before I got an SSD. You're running off an SSD right?

I never said lag is anything new. Stop quoting me and telling me my post is super weird while putting your words in my mouth. That’s the only thing that’s super weird, no idea why you’ve done that twice in a row now. I said it’s gotten worse in BfA but lag has always, always been in the game. Maybe the reason I think it’s worse is because I’ve done more outdoor 40v40 shit so I noticed it more. However, WoD wasn’t too long ago, I can assure you I haven’t forgotten about it.

And yes, my SSD is actually new. 1 tb, 960 evo. I’m not sure why you have no idea these issues exist in the game but they’re well known issues. I’m not even remotely the first person to bring it up, and it’s really weird that youre acting like I am. Go look up “battle for Nazjatar lag”, you’ll find plenty of evidence. If you get two 40 man groups together in any zone it’ll lag heavily. It’s been an issue for a long time.

Edit- I just googled “battle for Nazjatar lag”. Yeah, there’s plenty of evidence that should show you it’s a game/tech issue, not a player issue. Why’re you arguing about something you haven’t even looked up?

[Izalla]

I don't think I've ever fought that dang bug queen where the game isn't lagged out multiple seconds behind. No wonder more than half the raid dies every time she does that AoE where you have to hide under the domes; I've died while standing inside the dome nearly every time because oopsie I'm only in it on my screen, and in reality I haven't made it there yet.