9.0 General Discussion

[therumblings]

This is how it's been for 8 years, and until now, people have never lost their minds over it.

No one is losing their minds over it. The Cataclysm was shoved down our throats during leveling. Teldrassil which is a vital plot point and Horde warcrime, seemingly vanished from the sight of players. I'd like to believe Blizzard did this just to make leveling easier and non-story dependant since Kul Tiras and Zandalar mostly have their own contained stories, although the bitterness in me wants to believe they are sweeping it under the rug.

[Blayze]

The Fourth War was not caused due to buildup from WoW's history. The War of Thorns and Teldrassil's destruction are vital to the story of BFA. Regardless of your fanatical defense of blizzard's garbage writing, it is a necessary plot point for the entirety of BFA, nor is it exposition. I guess you think it's cool to play Cataclysm without knowing what the Cataclysm is? Cool.

What even was the Cataclysm, anyway?

Most zones took no damage at all, and some even took negative damage, that's how little of an impact Deathwing actually had.

[Yarathir]

What even was the Cataclysm, anyway?

Most zones took no damage at all, and some even took negative damage, that's how little of an impact Deathwing actually had.

You want a laughably little impact for how much a being's destructive capabilities were touted?

Look no further than N'Zoth, who kindly limited his invasion to Uldum and Vale of Eternal Blossoms and maybe the Heart Chamber sometimes. What a good guy.

[therumblings]

What even was the Cataclysm, anyway?

Most zones took no damage at all, and some even took negative damage, that's how little of an impact Deathwing actually had.

Deathwing's cataclysm literally broke the boundaries between Azeroth and the elemental planes when he broke forth from Deepholm, Deathwing breathing fire on zones was nothing compared to what the Shattering actually was. Like The Wound, Azerite, the Legion Invasion and Visions of N'zoth, it was poorly portrayed in game, and mostly showed Deathwing breathing fire on zones.

[Sondrelk]

No one is losing their minds over it. The Cataclysm was shoved down our throats during leveling. Teldrassil which is a vital plot point and Horde warcrime, seemingly vanished from the sight of players. I'd like to believe Blizzard did this just to make leveling easier and non-story dependant since Kul Tiras and Zandalar mostly have their own contained stories, although the bitterness in me wants to believe they are sweeping it under the rug.

It very much seems like Blizzard decided th throw out most of BfAs story wholesale, begin the hero of Azeroth makes sense to remove for new players, but Teldrassil is integral not just to teh plot of BfA but to Shadowlands. So now new players will go through BfA completely unaware of the caused it only to learn in Shadowlands that it was actually caused by Sylvanas killing all the Nelves we will likely encounter in the Maw.
Removing that plotline only makes sense if we were to assume Teldrassil and the Nelves would never be a plotpoint ever again.

[Yarathir]

It very much seems like Blizzard decided th throw out most of BfAs story wholesale, begin the hero of Azeroth makes sense to remove for new players, but Teldrassil is integral not just to teh plot of BfA but to Shadowlands. So now new players will go through BfA completely unaware of the caused it only to learn in Shadowlands that it was actually caused by Sylvanas killing all the Nelves we will likely encounter in the Maw.
Removing that plotline only makes sense if we were to assume Teldrassil and the Nelves would never be a plotpoint ever again.

Oh god, they probably want to pin it in its entirety on Sylvanas, I just realized.

[Sondrelk]

Oh god, they probably want to pin it in its entirety on Sylvanas, I just realized.

Implying they didnt do that already. Even Saurfang point blank stating in a cinematic that the Horde is equally to blame for allowing someone like Sylvanas wasnt enough to prevent all the blame being pinned on Sylvanas.

[therumblings]

Oh god, they probably want to pin it in its entirety on Sylvanas, I just realized.

I wouldn't even mind them retconning the entire thing to being just her.

[Yarathir]

Implying they didnt do that already. Even Saurfang point blank stating in a cinematic that the Horde is equally to blame for allowing someone like Sylvanas wasnt enough to prevent all the blame being pinned on Sylvanas.

Well, sure. But this time, it might be an actual retcon to push the idea in Shadowlands that the blame lies solely with her and that the Horde wasn't even complicit in the first place, which could be why it's removed from BfA.

[Sondrelk]

Well, sure. But this time, it might be an actual retcon to push the idea in Shadowlands that the blame lies solely with her and that the Horde wasn't even complicit in the first place, which could be why it's removed from BfA.

Again, you are saying this like BfA didnt already try to retcon the Horde being partly responsible for what Sylvanas did.

[Yarathir]

Again, you are saying this like BfA didnt already try to retcon the Horde being partly responsible for what Sylvanas did.

It tried to imply that "befehl ist befehl" is a valid defense and tried to muddy the waters for how far and to which extent a group can be held responsible for what a leader 'made them do.'

What I'm saying is that removing any mention of the Horde causing Teldrassil and sparking Lordaeron as a counteract which then leads into Battle for Azeroth might be done now so that for new players, they can literally say that it was literally, physically, only Sylvanas and Nathanos, and maybe a bunch of val'kyr, using Jailer powers to fight everyone off and cause the Burning of Teldrassil.

[Sondrelk]

It tried to imply that 'befehl ist befehl' is a valid defense and tried to muddy the waters for at which point a group can be held responsible for what a leader made them do.

What I'm saying is that removing any mention of the Horde causing Teldrassil and sparking Lordaeron as a counteract which then leads into Battle for Azeroth might be done now so that for new players, they can literally say that it was literally, physically, only Sylvanas and Nathanos, and maybe a bunch of val'kyr, using Jailer powers to fight everyone off and cause the Burning of Teldrassil.

But yes, you are seemingly onto something here. The story would still technically function if Blizzard pretends Teldrassil was an entirely solo operation and Sylvanas ran away right after. it certainly does remove all the complexity from the story that BfA didnt already take.

[Cazze]

Did you get a lore dump on who Illidan and his friends are in TBC? The whole story of Deathwing before cata? It is dumb to expect the whole plot to be shoved in the face of new players. You want them addressing the burning of Teldrassil. Then how about adressing the reason Sylvannas burned it, or why the Horde started the war at all? Do you explain their position of power after MoP? Do you then explain why they are in such a position, their civil war or why the Wrath-MoP war started at all? See you could make this argument for everything. Where do you stop in this rabbit hole.

Besides, it is not like it is removed or retconned, you are free to go and read short stories, books, play most past events or even read the damn wiki.

[Sondrelk]

Did you get a lore dump on who Illidan and his friends are in TBC? The whole story of Deathwing before cata? It is dumb to expect the whole plot to be shoved in the face of new players. You want them addressing the burning of Teldrassil. Then how about adressing the reason Sylvannas burned it, or why the Horde started the war at all? Do you explain their position of power after MoP? Do you then explain why they are in such a position, their civil war or why the Wrath-MoP war started at all? See you could make this argument for everything. Where do you stop in this rabbit hole.

Besides, it is not like it is removed or retconned, you are free to go and read short stories, books, play most past events or even read the damn wiki.

We also didnt need to know about who Deathwing really was, because who he was wasnt as important to the players as what he did, not ot mention Blizzard still showed us what he did, they didnt pretend it didnt happen.
For Teldrassil the entire story hinges on it, and that story leads directly into Shadowlands.

[Thenatural]

Did you get a lore dump on who Illidan and his friends are in TBC? The whole story of Deathwing before cata? It is dumb to expect the whole plot to be shoved in the face of new players. You want them addressing the burning of Teldrassil. Then how about adressing the reason Sylvannas burned it, or why the Horde started the war at all? Do you explain their position of power after MoP? Do you then explain why they are in such a position, their civil war or why the Wrath-MoP war started at all? See you could make this argument for everything. Where do you stop in this rabbit hole.

Besides, it is not like it is removed or retconned, you are free to go and read short stories, books, play most past events or even read the damn wiki.

Great points. It's almost like there is some ulterior motive. It's weird, I just logged into my level 71 mage and selected Wrath as a leveling expansion, not one cutscene, just told me to take a blimp to Northrend. Strange.

[Sondrelk]

Great points. It's almost like there is some ulterior motive. It's weird, I just logged into my level 71 mage and selected Wrath as a leveling expansion, not one cutscene, just told me to take a blimp to Northrend. Strange.

It's also important to remember that WotLK didnt have a massive plot point hinge on Arthas showing up in Outland and taking the soul of someone important. Shadowlands does with Teldrassil.

[huth]

It's also important to remember that WotLK didnt have a massive plot point hinge on Arthas showing up in Outland and taking the soul of someone important. Shadowlands does with Teldrassil.

No, it doesn't. You can start Shadowlands without knowing BfA at all. It helps understand some of the motivations, but it isn't needed.

[Sondrelk]

No, it doesn't. You can start Shadowlands without knowing BfA at all. It helps understand some of the motivations, but it isn't needed.

You seem to forget. Tyrande will have a large role in Shadowlands, and the reason for this is now entirely removed with Teldrassil being written out of the story.
Not that we need to have the entire song and dance over Tyrande becoming the Night Warrior in Darkshore and small details like that, but Teldrassil has absolutely massive implications for the future of the game.

[Yarathir]

No, it doesn't. You can start Shadowlands without knowing BfA at all. It helps understand some of the motivations, but it isn't needed.

This is about BfA leaving out the reasons for why BfA started.

[Cazze]

We also didnt need to know about who Deathwing really was, because who he was wasnt as important to the players as what he did, not ot mention Blizzard still showed us what he did, they didnt pretend it didnt happen.
For Teldrassil the entire story hinges on it, and that story leads directly into Shadowlands.

Yeah, i agree about Deathwing, I was using it just as an example.

On the other hand, if you play bfa leveling you are almost certain to watch the Saurfang cinematics which explicitly focus on the burning of Teldrassil. How is that pretending it didn't happen when Sylvanas basking in the screams of the burning elfs is the most demonstrative depiction of the burning you can get.

And while the burning of the tree is important, why it burned is just as important, but I don't see people complaining about that.