9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

Do we already know that the Jailer objective is to wipe out the universe?

BTW the whole Sylvanas theme, even if her point is for the "greater good", is a "Means justify the ends" dilemma, and we know that the answer for that is No.

Unless Bolvar is lying then Sylvanas and/or the Jailer intends on breaking the cycle of life and death in such a way that would likely destroy the universe. And even if they don't intend to do exactly that then they are still breaking the Shadowlands in a way that is heavily implied at this point to have devastating consequences.

[Yarathir]

No amount of mental gymnastics will ever be able to justify Sylvanas, your entire argument is dependent on unconfirmed speculation at best.

What you're saying is the equivalent of saying Illidan would be a saint if he fed souls to Sargeras in order to break the cycle of the cosmos and reforge it without the void.

Even if your speculation is correct, it still does not even remotely make Sylvanas a hero.

Why do you even bother anymore..

[Sondrelk]

So Tyrande got a "power-up" and they didn't bother actually showing it actually making her more powerful, but they do want to emphasize the risks and probably depower her again as soon as possible.

Laughable.

At least they likely won't just kill her off. I guess we should count our blessings that Blizzard at least didnt just have Tyrande die at the end of BfA because her mission was complete or some such bullshit.

[therumblings]

Why do you even bother anymore..

Meh, currently getting bored of playing WoW and just farming gold, it's strangely entertaining to debate and post facts and logic to see how people react.

[Maxilian]

They are not evil though, despite their actions in TBC clearly being shown as such, meaning that one some level Blizzard decided that what happened in TBC wasnt important.
And yes, Kael is in Revendreth, which is essnetially purgatory. But he seemed quite content being evil in TBC, seeling his people out twice for power.
So yes, not quite a retcon per se, but when you look at it overall it is pretty clear that Blizzard at some point realized that TBC was a hot mess.

I mean... he was clearly evil, that's why he was send to Revendreth, we are even pointed out that mostly evil people are send to Revendreth in the questline, with the example of the King that we are to torment cause he abused his power, lived a happy life as a tyrant with all the pleasures in the world while his people where suffering, and how the Accuser was an assassin that killed anyone for money and lived till the end like that till she killed her own daughter by mistake, etc...

So at least for Kael, his afterlife show that he was indeed evil in life, but may have the chance of redemption as many others.

[Sondrelk]

Why is it such a hard concept to grasp that Sylvanas is blatantly evil? She commits genocide for no reason other than to feed her evil master souls in order to throw the Shadowlands off balance and free the most horrific and evil beings in all of cosmic existence from hell.

At this point i would assume that the cult mentality has set in, the fanboys are so used to defending Sylvanas that they are no longer capable of thinking rationally about it, instead devolving into more and more inane arguments to support their side.

[Raetary]

So Tyrande got a "power-up" and they didn't bother actually showing it actually making her more powerful, but they do want to emphasize the risks and probably depower her again as soon as possible.

Laughable.

You mean her only "show of power", which was struggling to kill Nathanos and 2 rando Val'kyr was not enough to prove her (literal) god given strength?

What a ludicrous statement.
CLEARLY you are wrong!

[Maxilian]

Unless Bolvar is lying then Sylvanas and/or the Jailer intends on breaking the cycle of life and death in such a way that would likely destroy the universe. And even if they don't intend to do exactly that then they are still breaking the Shadowlands in a way that is heavily implied at this point to have devastating consequences.

Hmmm, didn't know of Bolvar comment, but yes, regardless of it, the outcome of Sylvanas plan would break the shadowlands and have big implications, is it that bad? Who knows.

But be it bad or not, i do agree that Sylvanas is anything but a Hero.

[shoc]

I can hear this armor set.

[Maxilian]

One day.. one day we'll get more lenient transmog rules that will allow hunters to use leather armor.

And it will be great.

At least dreams have not cost

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Out of context voices...always entertaining.

[Sondrelk]

I mean... he was clearly evil, that's why he was send to Revendreth, we are even pointed out that mostly evil people are send to Revendreth in the questline, with the example of the King that we are to torment cause he abused his power, lived a happy life as a tyrant with all the pleasures in the world while his people where suffering, and how the Accuser was an assassin that killed anyone for money and lived till the end like that till she killed her own daughter by mistake, etc...

So at least for Kael, his afterlife show that he was indeed evil in life, but may have the chance of redemption as many others.

You don't really get the point though.

There were 3 Warcraft heroes that were straight evil in TBC, Illidan, Vashj and Kael. Now Vashj made sense, but Illidan and Kael seemed perfectly reasonable until TBC where they seemingly jumped straight off the deep end.
In Legion Illidan was redeemed, not in a way that actually tried to explain what he was doing in TBC that required him to lay siege to Shattrath, but just in a way that tried to convince us he is completely good now.
Vashj is seemingly also redeemed, no good reason is given just yet considering the last time we saw her she attempted to drain Outland of water and establish a black market of sorts, at least it seemed that way.
Kael was as i said willing to sell out his people twice for greater power, any mention of him doing good was obscured by painting him as insane.

Now all 3 of those have been, or shortly will be, redeemed. And it just so happens all 3 were villains in an expansion that have been bashed before for misrepresenting favorite characters. So i don't think it is that far a leap to assume Blizzard has just decided that characters in TBC are for all intents and purposes not canon, at least not in a way that cannot be swerved out of like Illidan.

- - - Updated - - -

One day.. one day we'll get more lenient transmog rules that will allow hunters to use leather armor.

And it will be great.

Most every new expansion i look at gear givne to leather users and think:
"I wonder why my hinter cannot transmog this piece of animal hide, seems like the exact thing a hunter should wear"
The most egregious case of this was likely with Antorus, where druids had the bearmantle set with that amazing bearskin head which Blizzard clearly thought looked enough like a hunter piece that they gave it to a survival hunter NPC in Boralus, and i am convinced they did it to spite me.

[Maxilian]

You don't really get the point though.

There were 3 Warcraft heroes that were straight evil in TBC, Illidan, Vashj and Kael. Now Vashj made sense, but Illidan and Kael seemed perfectly reasonable until TBC where they seemingly jumped straight off the deep end.
In Legion Illidan was redeemed, not in a way that actually tried to explain what he was doing in TBC that required him to lay siege to Shattrath, but just in a way that tried to convince us he is completely good now.
Vashj is seemingly also redeemed, no good reason is given just yet considering the last time we saw her she attempted to drain Outland of water and establish a black market of sorts, at least it seemed that way.
Kael was as i said willing to sell out his people twice for greater power, any mention of him doing good was obscured by painting him as insane.

Now all 3 of those have been, or shortly will be, redeemed. And it just so happens all 3 were villains in an expansion that have been bashed before for misrepresenting favorite characters. So i don't think it is that far a leap to assume Blizzard has just decided that characters in TBC are for all intents and purposes not canon, at least not in a way that cannot be swerved out of like Illidan.

Very well.

And yes, i do agree that is likely Blizzard trying to push under the rug TBC storyline.

Ah, now that we got Lady Vashj working with Morgraine, i wonder if we will see the other members of the 4 Horsemen? If so i expect to see Sir Zeliek in Bastion, the rest are questionable after that, though i would put Lady Blaumeux in Revendreth having in mind her attitude and Thane Korth'azz to Maldraxxus with Morgraine

[Sondrelk]

Very well.

And yes, i do agree that is likely Blizzard trying to push under the rug TBC storyline.

Ah, now that we got Lady Vashj working with Morgraine, i wonder if we will see the other members of the 4 Horsemen? If so i expect to see Sir Zeliek in Bastion, the rest are questionable after that, though i would put Lady Blaumeux in Revendreth having in mind her attitude and Thane Korth'azz to Maldraxxus with Morgraine

I could see that, though it might get a bit crowded considering Blizzard might want ot give room to some of the new horsemen as well, and Morgraine is possibly the only previous horseman who has a story worth dedicating time to. Zeliek i could see as more of an easter egg character, or at most someone who wanders around the Bastion covenant area, i don't think the 2 others are interesting or memorable enough to dedicate time and effort to.

[Maxilian]

I could see that, though it might get a bit crowded considering Blizzard might want ot give room to some of the new horsemen as well, and Morgraine is possibly the only previous horseman who has a story worth dedicating time to. Zeliek i could see as more of an easter egg character, or at most someone who wanders around the Bastion covenant area, i don't think the 2 others are interesting or memorable enough to dedicate time and effort to.

I do agree, i was not thinking of having them as actual story character, just NPC that are around that we actually recognize by name.

BTW... i have always wondered, why a Bread?

[Sondrelk]

I do agree, i was not thinking of having them as actual story character, just NPC that are around that we actually recognize by name.

BTW... i have always wondered, why a Bread?

I figured i needed aa profice pic when i decided to get a bit more active in this and the 8.3 thread, and seeing as i had no creativity i decided t ogo with a piece of white bread to symbolize my lack of effort and creativity. I originally planned to go with a sourdough bread since i love baking, but i figured that might make me too pretentious, so white bread it was.

It was also the only picture i found on Google that i thought might look decent and not too detailed as a profile pic when i searched google.

[Yarathir]

You mean her only "show of power", which was struggling to kill Nathanos and 2 rando Val'kyr was not enough to prove her (literal) god given strength?

What a ludicrous statement.
CLEARLY you are wrong!

You don't get it man. Nathanos was like.. a super awesome ranger. Even the High Elves were impressed!

And then there are like 2 WoTLK trash mobs with him. He's basically invincible.

Especially if the world's strongest Archdruid besides her who can summon natural disasters prefers to play out his furry fantasies by staying in bear form.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Especially if the world's strongest Archdruid besides her who can summon natural disasters prefers to play out his furry fantasies by staying in bear form.

Malfy is always screwed over.

[serra2]

You don't really get the point though.

There were 3 Warcraft heroes that were straight evil in TBC, Illidan, Vashj and Kael. Now Vashj made sense, but Illidan and Kael seemed perfectly reasonable until TBC where they seemingly jumped straight off the deep end.
In Legion Illidan was redeemed, not in a way that actually tried to explain what he was doing in TBC that required him to lay siege to Shattrath, but just in a way that tried to convince us he is completely good now.
Vashj is seemingly also redeemed, no good reason is given just yet considering the last time we saw her she attempted to drain Outland of water and establish a black market of sorts, at least it seemed that way.
Kael was as i said willing to sell out his people twice for greater power, any mention of him doing good was obscured by painting him as insane.

Now all 3 of those have been, or shortly will be, redeemed. And it just so happens all 3 were villains in an expansion that have been bashed before for misrepresenting favorite characters. So i don't think it is that far a leap to assume Blizzard has just decided that characters in TBC are for all intents and purposes not canon, at least not in a way that cannot be swerved out of like Illidan.

- - - Updated - - -



Most every new expansion i look at gear givne to leather users and think:
"I wonder why my hinter cannot transmog this piece of animal hide, seems like the exact thing a hunter should wear"
The most egregious case of this was likely with Antorus, where druids had the bearmantle set with that amazing bearskin head which Blizzard clearly thought looked enough like a hunter piece that they gave it to a survival hunter NPC in Boralus, and i am convinced they did it to spite me.

Except she isn't redeemed? Like, at all. The only place that cares about "redemption" is the Vampire place. Maldraxxas is really only concerned with how good of a fighty person you were in life. The only thing that matter there is strength, the strength to seize what you want. If she is in the position to direct us towards her own ends in the Shadowlands, it's because she beat the shit out of everyone between her and her current position.

Vashj does not need to be good, or redeemed to be a main player on our side in the story, just someone interested in maintaining or improving her stake in the Necrolords by bumping off a few of her rivals.

[Maxilian]

You don't get it man. Nathanos was like.. a super awesome ranger. Even the High Elves were impressed!

And then there are like 2 WoTLK trash mobs with him. He's basically invincible.

Especially if the world's strongest Archdruid besides her who can summon natural disasters prefers to play out his furry fantasies by staying in bear form.

Lets be fair, Mehfurion is only powerful in SOME books and comics, after that he's just a glorified DND 5E Moon Druid with only 3 spells.

Note: I do think that Malfurion should be shown more with his actual powers, heck... it doesn't have to be something that destructive, he could just make a giant wall of vegetation that separates Azshara and Ashenvalle that attacks anyone or anything that tries to cut it, or cast a giant spell to uproot and burn down all the corrupted flora of Felwood and revitalize the zone, etc...