9.0 General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

Well that ship already sailed with Cataclysm so it's hardly relevant.

I think the biggest point of a timeskip is to create an evergreen world like the world of classic which is unspecific rather than being tied to a specific expansion. For example I started in TBC with a Draenei character. After questing through the Myst Isles I moved onto Kalimdor. Now technically my character was moving back in time, but that didn't matter because Classic Kalimdor and EKdoms feature broad, unspecific stories that could fit in anywhere. Contrast that to Cataclysm where it's jarringly obvious that the timeline is moving about. A timeskip where loose ends from past expansions have long since been tied up and new stories have begun allows us to go back to that sort of world.

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Who said it would be doing nothing?



But what does "retaking Gilneas" consist of in gameplay terms? There are no enemies there anymore, there's no battle for gilneas. I agree that it's disappointing not to see Gilneas retaken but BFA basically resolved the plot line offscreen.



A year or two doesn't change anything though.

I am still not sure why you need a timeskip to create said evergreen world.
Felwood is not less rooted because the things there happened in Reign of Chaos. Neither are the Plageulands.

Take my dream scenario of the new Westfall story concering a giant Legion dreadnaught crash landing near Moonbrook and being taken by Defias.
Yes, it would be tied to Legion, but you wouldnt need to know about the Legion-pre-patch to understand what is happening. The Burning Legion has attacked Azeroth, and this is a well-known fact, just because it is referencing a specific point in time doesnt mean it cannot be unrooted from things that happen afterwards.

Similarly I do no think any of the zones require a timeskip to make them timeless zones, they just need someone going in with the intention of making them timeless.
Botani escaped Draenor during the Mag'har campaign, you could easily create a timeless story set right after Shadowlands where they invade Feralas. Maybe the Ankoan or Jinyu are trying to settle around Vashj'ir, and that could be the story of that zone. Or Vulpera caravans travelling Kalimdor.

None of these stories require a timeskip, but they are nonetheless ungrounded from any overarching story if you want them to be.


Reatking Gilneas in gameplay terms consists of travelling there, possibly by ship, travelling back to Gilneas city and Genn making a speech.
It doesnt have to be fancy, but it is a large enough event it deserves its time to shine.


A year or two doesnt change much on its own, no. But if you add it up to all the previous years we have not spent in the relevant zones then you could easily add it up to a decade if you want.
As I said, there are very few zones that would "require" a timeskip to explain how things have changed, and pretty much all of those do not need to change.
Yes, it would be neat to have a New-Shattrath city on Azuremyst, but it isnt needed, you could just as easily have some basic houses and roads and I would be just as happy with the new Draenei capital. Same with the Nelves and Nordrassil.

[Makabreska]

just fyi, expecting anything from a time skip is gonna end in disappointment, blizzard's writing hasn't exactly gotten better, I would expect another WoD if they did that shit.

That WoD? There was no time skip there.

I don't know why we're fighting so hard for a time skip. I mean yeah I get it, having yearly threats could get tiresome for Azeroth but... I don't see that changing.

Not to mention, it wouldn't change shit for us. Lore-wise Azeroth wouldn't have a yearly threat, but players would.

[huth]

That is the thing though. A time skip is meaningless. We could just assume the interesting stuff happens right after we return, having a timeskip is just adding extra pressure on the world design that would be difficult, if not impossible ot pay off.
Take the kids running around in Stormwind arguing about a toy gorilla. It is already silly that they have not changed despite the years of time they have been there, but with a timeskip you are implicitly promising that all such onconsistencies will be fixed, and that is just not realistic, no matter how thorough the revamp. A timeskip would only be feasible if this was actually WoW 2

You say you want a timeskip. But why? What stories are important enough for the writers and designers to cripple themselves to tell? What stories would even require the timeskip anyways? As I said, it has been years since we were last in the zones relevant for a world revamp, just say things happened there while we were not looking, much easier than commiting to a timeskip for no reason.

Because to much is happening in to short a timeframe. We went through multiple potentially or actually world-shattering events in a timeframe that is barely long enough for one of them. I'm not in favour of a world revamp, though, as that's mostly a waste of time and resources. Your arguments do not truly work for that reason, as you keep taking issue with things i don't consider relevant, most importantly you're to stuck on how this affects the actual game world over the lore.
Those kids haven't been arguing over the gorilla for years now. That particular part of the world is just stuck in a groundhog loop for game design reasons, i.e. the effort of changing it not being remotely worth the benefit.

Essentially, the time skipped future would be its own "continent" while the old world remains as is.

[Sondrelk]

Because to much is happening in to short a timeframe. We went through multiple potentially or actually world-shattering events in a timeframe that is barely long enough for one of them. I'm not in favour of a world revamp, though, as that's mostly a waste of time and resources. Your arguments do not truly work for that reason, as you keep taking issue with things i don't consider relevant, most importantly you're to stuck on how this affects the actual game world over the lore.
Those kids haven't been arguing over the gorilla for years now. That particular part of the world is just stuck in a groundhog loop for game design reasons, i.e. the effort of changing it not being remotely worth the benefit.

Essentially, the time skipped future would be its own "continent" while the old world remains as is.

How is poor storytelling in the plast an excuse for poor storytelling in the future though? Is the argument that since the world changing events should have happened with more room back then that we should fill that time in now? Are you implying the world changing events will be reacted to in turn? That the people of Tanaris cannot both be dealing with the demon invasion that happened in Legion as well as the Old God invasion that happened just recently?

Time has passed, and things have happened. Just because it wasnt realistic to have it all happen so quickly before doesnt mean that we should skip over the reacting part.
Nothing in a timeskip so far has convinced me it is actually necessary. Noone has yet given me an example of a pressing story that actually requires a timeskip.

If we get no world revamp then a timeskip is even more pointless. As there would be no reason to add an artifical time in-between we did not experience just so the devs could pretend like it mattered.
Besides, if we do get one and it isnt a world revamp. Then are we to expect one after every expansion now? Wouldnt that be a nightmare for the model designers.

[Protar95]

I am still not sure why you need a timeskip to create said evergreen world.
Felwood is not less rooted because the things there happened in Reign of Chaos. Neither are the Plageulands.

I mean there was a time skip between WCIII and WoW, albeit not a huge one. But the same purpose was served - to separate WoW so it wasn't just dealing with the direct aftermath of WCIII. The story of the RTS's became lore as opposed to current story.

Take my dream scenario of the new Westfall story concering a giant Legion dreadnaught crash landing near Moonbrook and being taken by Defias.
Yes, it would be tied to Legion, but you wouldnt need to know about the Legion-pre-patch to understand what is happening. The Burning Legion has attacked Azeroth, and this is a well-known fact, just because it is referencing a specific point in time doesnt mean it cannot be unrooted from things that happen afterwards.

Similarly I do no think any of the zones require a timeskip to make them timeless zones, they just need someone going in with the intention of making them timeless.
Botani escaped Draenor during the Mag'har campaign, you could easily create a timeless story set right after Shadowlands where they invade Feralas. Maybe the Ankoan or Jinyu are trying to settle around Vashj'ir, and that could be the story of that zone. Or Vulpera caravans travelling Kalimdor.

None of these stories require a timeskip, but they are nonetheless ungrounded from any overarching story if you want them to be.

Reatking Gilneas in gameplay terms consists of travelling there, possibly by ship, travelling back to Gilneas city and Genn making a speech.
It doesnt have to be fancy, but it is a large enough event it deserves its time to shine.

So the big event would just consist of talking to Genn? To me that sounds like a waste of time, just skip to a restored Gilneas.

A year or two doesnt change much on its own, no. But if you add it up to all the previous years we have not spent in the relevant zones then you could easily add it up to a decade if you want.
As I said, there are very few zones that would "require" a timeskip to explain how things have changed, and pretty much all of those do not need to change.
Yes, it would be neat to have a New-Shattrath city on Azuremyst, but it isnt needed, you could just as easily have some basic houses and roads and I would be just as happy with the new Draenei capital. Same with the Nelves and Nordrassil.

I mean most of your argument seems to be that yes, seeing new towns and cities built would be cool, but we don't need that so let's just have some new tents and huts instead. I'd much rather a large timeskip which gives time for kingdoms to rise or fall or be rebuilt. I don't want a revamp that puts races like the Worgen and the Night Elves in intermediate spots.

[huth]

Time has passed, and things have happened. Just because it wasnt realistic to have it all happen so quickly before doesnt mean that we should skip over the reacting part.
Nothing in a timeskip so far has convinced me it is actually necessary. Noone has yet given me an example of a pressing story that actually requires a timeskip.

That's the reason we need one to begin with. There hasn't even been any time to react to anything before they get hit with the next disaster. But most of those reactions won't be interesting to watch progress unless you're the type that enjoys watching grass grow and paint dry.

We also have constant timeskips in BfA. Or did you think sailing a ship from Zandalar to Boralus really only takes one loading screen worth of time?

[Sondrelk]

I mean there was a time skip between WCIII and WoW, albeit not a huge one. But the same purpose was served - to separate WoW so it wasn't just dealing with the direct aftermath of WCIII. The story of the RTS's became lore as opposed to current story.


So the big event would just consist of talking to Genn? To me that sounds like a waste of time, just skip to a restored Gilneas.



I mean most of your argument seems to be that yes, seeing new towns and cities built would be cool, but we don't need that so let's just have some new tents and huts instead. I'd much rather a large timeskip which gives time for kingdoms to rise or fall or be rebuilt. I don't want a revamp that puts races like the Worgen and the Night Elves in intermediate spots.

We are not just going to be dealing with the direct aftermath of solely Shadowlands though. There are loads of expansions in-between Cata, and even those are set at the very beginning of the expansion, not really dealing with what happened in whatever year or two the expansion story was ongoing.


No, it wouldnt be much, but it would be something. Retaking Gilneas is one of the most significant lore events that have yet to happen. Just skipping over it because it didnt have enough explosions and setpieces in it is pretty insulting to those who have been looking forward to it for years.


My argument is that a timeskip is not needed, partially because it would require Blizzard dedicating themselves to quite a lot when they could just as easily not have a timeskip and get most of the intended effect anyways.
Again, what you are suggesting is just not feasible in an MMO like WoW. This is not a game that supports such massive changes in such short notice.

If Blizzard does a timeskip of say 5 years, then they have to consider that every single relevant NPC that you encounter has to somehow show a noticeable difference or people will accuse you of being lazy. and while cities could be built, it is just as likely they wouldnt be anyways, in which case the timeskip was wasted.

Again, I have yet to be told a great story that needs to be told that requires an actual timeskip. Most of them could be told just as easily if you say that 2 years passed while we were in the Shadowlands.

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That's the reason we need one to begin with. There hasn't even been any time to react to anything before they get hit with the next disaster. But most of those reactions won't be interesting to watch progress unless you're the type that enjoys watching grass grow and paint dry.

We also have constant timeskips in BfA. Or did you think sailing a ship from Zandalar to Boralus really only takes one loading screen worth of time?

The thing is, if we go by the conservative assumption that an expansion takes place over a year in Azeroth, then that still leaves plenty of time for characters to have gotten over the initial shock, started rebuilding and in a sense being ready for the next happening.
Take Gadgetzan, if we assume that 1 year span for each expansion then it will have been 3 years since the Legion attacked it at the end of Shadowlands. Is it really needed to bolt another 5-10 years on that?

Also, of course I know that the loading screens are not in real time, but neither is going back there after 8.1 anyways. Small skips happen all the time, but that does not mean it is hte same thing if Blizzard decided declare that we have jumped 10 years into the future.

[Halfaheart]

Blizzard updated their official post with all of the abilities if you want to check it out

That's actually super helpful. Im building a table for my character's classes/armor type/covenant so I can visualize which toons are going where. Thanks for the heads up!

[huth]

The thing is, if we go by the conservative assumption that an expansion takes place over a year in Azeroth, then that still leaves plenty of time for characters to have gotten over the initial shock, started rebuilding and in a sense being ready for the next happening.
Take Gadgetzan, if we assume that 1 year span for each expansion then it will have been 3 years since the Legion attacked it at the end of Shadowlands. Is it really needed to bolt another 5-10 years on that?

Well, yes. By that time, they shouldn't even have fully recovered from the Legion attack, which followed the Cataclysm and the last HvA war. You're also calculating wrong. 3 years from the start of the attacks, only 2 years from the end. They didn't just magically disappear after we went to BI. On top of that, there's the events in nearby Uldum and soon an undead invasion.

5-10 years is probably needed at minimum at this point.

[Halfaheart]

People are arguing the semantics of a timeskip when the DK's literally have a conversation regarding this in their order hall. Time is accelerated in the shadowlands. the text said something along the lines of "although its been years for you its only been mere minutes for me". It's a very real possibility that we could see a reshaped azeroth in 10.0. Just because it doesn't fit in with your headcanon doesn't mean there isnt a chance. It baffles me how many people just say "mm, nope. don't like it. fuck you" to any and everything that other people find interesting

[Sondrelk]

People are arguing the semantics of a timeskip when the DK's literally have a conversation regarding this in their order hall. Time is accelerated in the shadowlands. the text said something along the lines of "although its been years for you its only been mere minutes for me". It's a very real possibility that we could see a reshaped azeroth in 10.0. Just because it doesn't fit in with your headcanon doesn't mean there isnt a chance. It baffles me how many people just say "mm, nope. don't like it. fuck you" to any and everything that other people find interesting

I don't mind the concept. It would be interesting to have one. I just doubt it will happen, because the narrative benefits of such a move does not necessarily outweight the drawbacks of it, especially when you consider that most of the timeskip stories could work just as well if you placed them after a regular amount of time had passed.


Secondly, as has been discussed to death before. It is far more likely that the time dilation effect will be used to explain why nothing has changed between the time we left for the Shadowlands and once we leave it. The Scourge attacks especially is one of those things that might be difficult to explain away unless we actually defeat them completely. With Legion it worked because we were specifically beating them back to the Broken Shore for strategic reasons, the feral Scourge presumably does not function in this way, so the developers have ot either contrive a reason for them to not be an ongoing threat once we leave, or risk completely undercutting teh supposed threat they were supposed to show.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The only thing that makes me skeptical is in terms of work involved with a time skip not that "OMG SO UNBELIEAVABLE"

I'm sure Blizzard can will it if they want to. Thats more important "If they want"

[Protar95]

We are not just going to be dealing with the direct aftermath of solely Shadowlands though. There are loads of expansions in-between Cata, and even those are set at the very beginning of the expansion, not really dealing with what happened in whatever year or two the expansion story was ongoing.

Right but the expansion would be still be set in the direct aftermath of Bfa/SL. I want a revamp to essentially be the start of a new chapter in WoW's lore. I think that needs time.

No, it wouldnt be much, but it would be something. Retaking Gilneas is one of the most significant lore events that have yet to happen. Just skipping over it because it didnt have enough explosions and setpieces in it is pretty insulting to those who have been looking forward to it for years.

I've been looking forward to it to years too but at this point Blizzard has squandered any potential in actually seeing Gilneas retaken. At this point skipping to a Gilneas restored to its former glory would be more satisfying than just getting a speech and then phasing into a partially rebuilt Gilneas.

My argument is that a timeskip is not needed, partially because it would require Blizzard dedicating themselves to quite a lot when they could just as easily not have a timeskip and get most of the intended effect anyways.
Again, what you are suggesting is just not feasible in an MMO like WoW. This is not a game that supports such massive changes in such short notice.

If Blizzard does a timeskip of say 5 years, then they have to consider that every single relevant NPC that you encounter has to somehow show a noticeable difference or people will accuse you of being lazy. and while cities could be built, it is just as likely they wouldnt be anyways, in which case the timeskip was wasted.

Again, I have yet to be told a great story that needs to be told that requires an actual timeskip. Most of them could be told just as easily if you say that 2 years passed while we were in the Shadowlands.

I think this just comes down to our expectations of how big a revamp 10.0 might be. I think and hope that 10.0 will be more than an expansion, essentially be WoW2. Still the same game, but majorly overhauled in the same vein as Overwatch 2. I think it's quite possible that Blizzard has been working on this behind the scenes since Legion. Since Legion we've seen new versions of a lot of old world creatures and architecture which would save work on a world revamp. If they've been working behind the scenes for three expansions and if 10.0 is being worked on as functionally a new game as opposed to a new xpac that would give them the time and resources for a large scale revamp. I see little point in half measures.

[Sondrelk]

Right but the expansion would be still be set in the direct aftermath of Bfa/SL. I want a revamp to essentially be the start of a new chapter in WoW's lore. I think that needs time.



I've been looking forward to it to years too but at this point Blizzard has squandered any potential in actually seeing Gilneas retaken. At this point skipping to a Gilneas restored to its former glory would be more satisfying than just getting a speech and then phasing into a partially rebuilt Gilneas.



I think this just comes down to our expectations of how big a revamp 10.0 might be. I think and hope that 10.0 will be more than an expansion, essentially be WoW2. Still the same game, but majorly overhauled in the same vein as Overwatch 2. I think it's quite possible that Blizzard has been working on this behind the scenes since Legion. Since Legion we've seen new versions of a lot of old world creatures and architecture which would save work on a world revamp. If they've been working behind the scenes for three expansions and if 10.0 is being worked on as functionally a new game as opposed to a new xpac that would give them the time and resources for a large scale revamp. I see little point in half measures.

I felt that Cata managed to feel like a new chapter despite not having a massive timeskip. The feeling of a brand new world comes more from buildup, not so much how long time has passed. For most players it would feel like a return to a world at peace regardless of whehter you claim it is 10 years later or not.


Well on that one we will just have to disagree then. I would prefer anything symbolic, no matter how lacking in substance over nothing.


A world revamp is already a massive undertaking, even if we go by the assumption that there are no new zones, and instead just revamped old ones. The timeskip would be extra work on top of that.
I want loads of stuff as much as you do, but we have to be eralistic about it. No amount of Draenor and Argus pieces Blizzard have stored will make it less of an undertaking to create a whole new city.

[Protar95]

Well on that one we will just have to disagree then. I would prefer anything symbolic, no matter how lacking in substance over nothing.

How is actually getting to see Gilneas restored to its full power nothing? Let's give Gilneas the focus it deserves, a quick speech and a half rebuilt gilneas would be the real insult to gilneas fans.

A world revamp is already a massive undertaking, even if we go by the assumption that there are no new zones, and instead just revamped old ones. The timeskip would be extra work on top of that.
I want loads of stuff as much as you do, but we have to be eralistic about it. No amount of Draenor and Argus pieces Blizzard have stored will make it less of an undertaking to create a whole new city.

The timeskip would not be extra work on top of a revamp if the revamp was done with the timeskip in mind. Regardless of if we get a timeskip of five years, fifty years or no timeskip at all I'd still expect any revamp of the old world to be a huge undertaking. I suspect that a revamp would involve rebuilding all the zones with updated graphics anyway, so they might as well go all in and make some major changes.

[Sondrelk]

How is actually getting to see Gilneas restored to its full power nothing? Let's give Gilneas the focus it deserves, a quick speech and a half rebuilt gilneas would be the real insult to gilneas fans.



The timeskip would not be extra work on top of a revamp if the revamp was done with the timeskip in mind. Regardless of if we get a timeskip of five years, fifty years or no timeskip at all I'd still expect any revamp of the old world to be a huge undertaking. I suspect that a revamp would involve rebuilding all the zones with updated graphics anyway, so they might as well go all in and make some major changes.

what you are saying is basically the same as saying that since we are going to the Shadowlands we should get at least an additional zone and covenant, since extra work is not as significant compared to the groundwork.

[Protar95]

what you are saying is basically the same as saying that since we are going to the Shadowlands we should get at least an additional zone and covenant, since extra work is not as significant compared to the groundwork.

In no way does that have anything to do with what I said. A timeskip would not be extra work on top of a revamp, because the timeskip and the revamp would be the same thing. A revamp will be the same amount of work regardless of what time period it is set in.

[Beefhammer]

what you are saying is basically the same as saying that since we are going to the Shadowlands we should get at least an additional zone and covenant, since extra work is not as significant compared to the groundwork.

It's entirely possible that they have been planning a time skip from the moment BfA went live and are pulling a WoD/Legion and revamping the world while SL main team is working on SL. They could have had a team redoing old zones the entire time after the warm welcome Arathi was given for the redo for the warfront.

[Sondrelk]

It's entirely possible that they have been planning a time skip from the moment BfA went live and are pulling a WoD/Legion and revamping the world while SL main team is working on SL. They could have had a team redoing old zones the entire time after the warm welcome Arathi was given for the redo for the warfront.

I imagine they have been planning a world revamp for a while now, possible even since Legion launched, or possibly even before that. Partly becaause while it is a massive investment, I think they realize that it could be worth it if they do it correctly. And also because they have to do a revamp eventually. The pool of available continents and large islands is not infinite, eventually they have to make use of an older area, whether that means Northrend, Pandaria or the old world.

[huth]

The pool of available continents and large islands is not infinite, eventually they have to make use of an older area, whether that means Northrend, Pandaria or the old world.

Given that we've been to multiple other planets and next expansion, a different plane of existence that is itself infinite... yes, the pool is in fact infinite, only limited by their ability to come up with new places. It's World of WarCraft, not World of Azeroth, after all.