9.0 General Discussion

[Nyel]

the easiest way to describe it is

one ability
gems that give bonuses
3 trees per covenant with mostly generic buffs or useless abilities

venthyr soulbind ability OP for all specs using a certain stat?? well you can nerf it but doing so then nerfs the players who arent OP due to it

the execute buff from the night fae soulbind OP for everybody??? ok rework it to not exist thus having a useless buff

healing buff from kyrian soulbind make all HoT healers OP?? ok nerf it but then you nerf it for the tanks that use it


they really did make it harder for themselves

The problem is that you have to choose a spec you want to play and continue from that place.

Sure this might sound like another min-max thing, but it’s more than that.

One example: Covenant A offers you the best ability for Spec 1. On the other hand Covenant A does offer really underwhelming Soulbinds for Spec 1. Covenant B offers an underwhelming ability, but very good Soulbinds. What are you going to choose?

And this is just the most obvious issue everybody has to think about. Now imagine you’re raiding and play two specs at the same time, e.g. tank/healer (in dungeons/raids) + DPS (in solo content/PvP/whatever). Everything from the example above is now twice as meaningful to consider, especially due to the case that you cannot swap Conduits on the go.

These choices are a nightmare for players that usually tend to play more than just one specialization. On top of this come the Legendaries, which had this exact same problem in Legion as well, where your first spec was always ahead due to the acquisition of Legendaries back then.

I am usually playing a healer main spec and DPS if needed. What’s the solution for me? Choose a Covenant that’s best for my healing spec but mediocre for DPS? Choose a Covenant that is okay-good for both healing and DPS at the same time?

All these implications make the Covenant system overly complex and yes, it’s systems over systems that make Shadowlands in that regard problematic, even if some players in this thread don’t want to acknowledge it. This is the thing beta players were most concerned about.

Blizzard is going to pull the ripcord, the question is if they do it before launch or continue their path of waiting out several content patches to fix a progression system that’s inherently flawed / problematic from the beginning.

[Sondrelk]

The problem is that you have to choose a spec you want to play and continue from that place.

Blizzard is going to pull the ripcord, the question is if they do it before launch or continue their path of waiting out several content patches to fix a progression system that’s inherently flawed / problematic from the beginning.

This speaks more to how ridiculously easy minmaxing has become in WoW though. It used to be, and still is in most games, that minmaxing is what you do if you have the time and are willing to put in the effort to figure out how to optimize, not something the game just gives you.

If you want to play at a really high level then you should have no problem putting in the effort to figure this stuff out.

Think of it this way. Blizzard has now essentailly made it so players are naturally grouped into different subsets based on their skill level or general level of effort put into the game.
On the low end we have people who only look at the base minimum of what the covenant gives, which is mostly aesthetics and 2 abilities.
Then you have the healthy medium where you get people who choose weighing up different aspects like damage, and whether they want to specialize or just pick something in the vague ballpark of optimal.
Then on the high end you have the players who are willing to put all the effort into optimizing and picking the best covenant for all situations to the best of their abilities.

If you want to be in the final group then you have to accept a level of theorycrafting, and generally understanding the ins and outs of the system. However if you just want to play on the lower end, or even medium like the vast majority then you can just look at it on the surface level of "Unique ability+Generic ability+Soulbinds/Conduits"

[Eurhetemec]

Oh please. You could change your talents for money, which admittedly was more valuable than today, but the cost would also go down. So if you didn't change it twice a day you would hardly ever reach the cap of 50g. Also Blizzard never locked your character progression behind exclusive factions, that flat out didn't exist until BC to begin with, with aldor and scryer and even then that only ment a few crafting recipes and an enchant. Well unless you count the centaur factions that didn't matter at all, but I hope even you can agree that this would be a tad bid dishonest. The one thing that comes even remotely close were racial skills for priests, which were the only ones among the 9 classes that had such a feature and it caused them constant headache that prompted them to remove it.

The only one revising history is you and your delusional crowd that swallowed Ion's bullshit about RPG elements. Choice is but one of these elements and the choice presented here is hardly the only choice one should have in an RPG. Also it can't be said enough that WoW has always been a themepark, especially once they commited to PvP and PvE as different endgame models. Not to mention that they even doubled down on those after they split PvE/P into large and small group variants each and the solo open world version. If Blizzard wants to bring back RPG elements they could do alot of things like
... reintroducing more classical stats,
... actually allow players to have PERSISTENT character progression instead of resetting it all 2 years,
... stop deactivating items for no reason other than to force people to get new ones of the latest "season",
... actually make crafting good and allow it to be part of the endgame again,
... stop disabling crafted items at certain levels like they did with alchemy,
... allow players some actual agency in the story,
... etc.

Dying on this RPG-hill only because Ion said so and you have deluded yourself that it makes you special is just utterly laughable. They chose the easiest , yet most detrimental way for the majority of the playerbase that will inadvertedly hamstrung people's enjoyment and sabotages many of the good aspects about covenants. They couldn't even get their writers to cough up a good reason for the covenant feuds when everyone is forced to help one another as a primary means of keeping the shadowlands running. The abilities are also hardly unique enough in theme that they couldn't be restyled to fit the other covenants. Who in their right mind wants to be locked into an unfun ability for the 5 minutes of RPG that WoW offers every now and then when the rest of your time is spend actually just playing your class in some kind of combat scenario? I would make changing covenants even harder tbh, but I also wouldn't force people into using a shitty ability that does nothing for a spec.

Uhhhh, nice rant that has nothing to do with what I was saying. You're the only one dying on a hill, mate.

If your idea of role-playing elements is limited to "how much respec'ing costs" and whether exclusive factions "locked character progression" (which they don't in SL - you progress in your covenant, you're choosing what you get from progression, not being prevented from progressing - you can't even argue otherwise), then I don't think you're going to convince anyone. And the ol' "Everyone but me is delusional!" is always funny to see.

Blizzard is going to pull the ripcord, the question is if they do it before launch or continue their path of waiting out several content patches to fix a progression system that’s inherently flawed / problematic from the beginning.

As someone who doesn't watch WoW youtubers, what does this "ripcord" deal mean? Is it just a weird-as-fuck way of saying "make changing covenants easy"?

[Sondrelk]

As someone who doesn't watch WoW youtubers, what does this "ripcord" deal mean? Is it just a weird-as-fuck way of saying "make changing covenants easy"?

Pretty much. The term I believe came from a relatively recent dev post on why they consider covenants being difficult to change important and mentioning how they are not going to pull the ripcord. Which I guess led players to believe that the devs having thought about meant they were definitely going to do it if they yelled and whined enough.

[huth]

And the ol' "Everyone but me is delusional!" is always funny to see.

Radio: "Caution, there is a wrong-way driver on the Interstate 43."
Driver: "One? Hundreds!"

Yeah, i'd like to to walk the rest of the way, thank you.

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Pretty much. The term I believe came from a relatively recent dev post on why they consider covenants being difficult to change important and mentioning how they are not going to pull the ripcord. Which I guess led players to believe that the devs having thought about meant they were definitely going to do it if they yelled and whined enough.

Nah, it came from an earlier post where they did mention they could always just make it easier as a last-resort ripcord.

[Gorsameth]

Dumb question. When the pre-patch hits, are our character all going to be scaled from 1-50?

Pre-patch is shadowlands in all things except being able to actually go to the new zones.

[Eurhetemec]

Nah, it came from an earlier post where they did mention they could always just make it easier as a last-resort ripcord.

I see. That was probably an ill-advised thing to mention because the amount of pissing and moaning from WoW players goes up by like 4000% when Blizzard mention something could be changed.

[Sondrelk]

Radio: "Caution, there is a wrong-way driver on the Interstate 43."
Driver: "One? Hundreds!"

Yeah, i'd like to to walk the rest of the way, thank you.

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Nah, it came from an earlier post where they did mention they could always just make it easier as a last-resort ripcord.

Now that you mention it I do remember that was how they described it.

Regardless, most of the talk about the Ripcord came from players who have convinced themselves whining incessantly will get them what they want.

Hopefully Blizzard decides to stick to their guns and put gameplay before convenience. At least until maybe the final patch or something when iit really doesnt matter anymore, similar to flying.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Usually the animations are hidden secrets. Things like the Jaina Warbringers animation being hidden on a ship in the Siege of Boralus raid. Or the Sylvanas Warbringer one being available if you go to where Delaryn died in Darkshore.

The Draka one plays during the introduction to the house of champions. As @Valysar mentioned one does play in Bastion as well when dealing with the memory shrine there, and maybe I got that wrong, but I thought the fallen Kyrian there was a different one than the one in the clip, which is why I thought it wouldn't fit there.

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Uhhhh, nice rant that has nothing to do with what I was saying. You're the only one dying on a hill, mate.

If your idea of role-playing elements is limited to "how much respec'ing costs" and whether exclusive factions "locked character progression" (which they don't in SL - you progress in your covenant, you're choosing what you get from progression, not being prevented from progressing - you can't even argue otherwise), then I don't think you're going to convince anyone. And the ol' "Everyone but me is delusional!" is always funny to see.

No, the ones dying there are Blizzard and your ilk. Also my post clearly lined out that this kind of "RPG element" has never been part of WoW before, hence why I tackled everything that was remotely similar, because this exact case has never been seen before. I even gave you a list of other RPG elements that would actually signify a return of said elements to the game, because betting all on this one system is not going to do what you guys think it will do, hence your collective delusion of RPG grandeur that just isn't there. All you do is make a bad descision that limits your potential for no gain what so ever and you somehow have bought this BS that this is the one and only way to bring RPG back; a rather narrow(minded) definition of RPG if I may say so..

And you definitely are locked. While can somewhat easily catch up on other covenants, it is still an incredible amount of extra work compared to just having your character progression as it should usually be. Not to mention that once you cycled through once you can only switch on short notice if you happen to do it near the weekly reset, as otherwise you will have to wait for up to 1 full ID and what ever time you need after the reset. All that just so that you can have fun with the obvious PvP covenant ability in PvP instead of your AoE one form your M+ build, because this game is still an MMOrpg.

[Sondrelk]

The Draka one plays during the introduction to the house of champions. As @Valysar mentioned one does play in Bastion as well when dealing with the memory shrine there, and maybe I got that wrong, but I thought the fallen Kyrian there was a different one than the one in the clip, which is why I thought it wouldn't fit there.

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No, the ones dying there are Blizzard and your ilk. Also my post clearly lined out that this kind of "RPG element" has never been part of WoW before, hence why I tackled everything that was remotely similar, because this exact case has never been seen before. I even gave you a list of other RPG elements that would actually signify a return of said elements to the game, because betting all on this one system is not going to do what you guys think it will do, hence your collective delusion of RPG grandeur that just isn't there. All you do is make a bad descision that limits your potential for no gain what so ever and you somehow have bought this BS that this is the one and only way to bring RPG back; a rather narro(minded) definition of RPG if I may say so..

And you definitely are locked. While can somewhat easily catch up on other covenants, it is still an incredible amount of extra work compared to just having your character progression as it should usually be. Not to mention that once you cycled through once you can only switch on short notice if you happen to do it near the weekly reset, as otherwise you will have to wait for up to 1 full ID and what ever time you need after the reset. All that just so that you can have fun with the obvious PvP covenant ability in PvP instead of your AoE one form your M+ build, because this game is still an MMOrpg.

It isnt a question of whether this exact kind of meaningful choice has been a part of the game before. The important matter is that this is a definitive RPG style system that attempts to add depth to the game.
The addition of this bodes well for the players that want the game to focus more on the more generic PvE, instead of just instanced content, raids and dungeons specifically.

As I have explained before. This is more in the vein of when Blizzard removed flying for WoD. It didnt necessarily change the game completely, but the removal of an ultimate option in traversing the landscape meant they could experiment with things like Nagrand giving you 100% movement speed, or Aviana's feather.
In short it was a decision that definitely came at the expense of those who wanted the game to be convenient and cater to them, but in return made the world feel more real, and made the very act of traversing the landscape somewhat of a challenge, no matter how minor.

Covenants are similarly at the expense of those who like, or at least have gotten used to swapping builds on a whim, whereas making swapping difficult makes it so players will have to make a choice on what kind of damage they want to be best at. They cannot pick whatever makes them completely dominant at AoE whenever there is an AoE centric boss fight, nor can they go all in on Single Target for that one boss, instead they now have to make those decision at least on a per week basis.

It isnt exactly the deepest system, talents are still swappable and you can still have different legendaries or swap between different soulbinds with different conduits, not to mention the covenant abilities themselves not always being clear cut in what they are best at. But the point is that it is some depth, which hopefully gets expanded on in the future.

[Cosmic Janitor]

As I have explained before. This is more in the vein of when Blizzard removed flying for WoD. It didnt necessarily change the game completely, but the removal of an ultimate option in traversing the landscape meant they could experiment with things like Nagrand giving you 100% movement speed, or Aviana's feather.
In short it was a decision that definitely came at the expense of those who wanted the game to be convenient and cater to them, but in return made the world feel more real, and made the very act of traversing the landscape somewhat of a challenge, no matter how minor.

See, I already disagree with your assumption that the removal of flying is a good thing. There is another way to make puzzles interesting or non-cheatable in a world with flying, to make even flying interesting. Blizzard just chose the lazy way that also happens to to boost their time spend metrics because everything is more tedious. They could easily make flying more than just high-speed-air-swimming for one. They even had alot of these systems back in TBC but somehow forgot about them, like the AA defenses. That way their alternatives to the walter walking mount upgrades would also make sense, because then you'd actually have a choice and something like the parachute had a purpose.

[Eurhetemec]

No, the ones dying there are Blizzard and your ilk.

Like I said, the ol' "everyone but me is crazy".

And you definitely are locked. While can somewhat easily catch up on other covenants, it is still an incredible amount of extra work compared to just having your character progression as it should usually be. Not to mention that once you cycled through once you can only switch on short notice if you happen to do it near the weekly reset, as otherwise you will have to wait for up to 1 full ID and what ever time you need after the reset. All that just so that you can have fun with the obvious PvP covenant ability in PvP instead of your AoE one form your M+ build, because this game is still an MMOrpg.

Being locked INTO a specific progression is not the same as being locked FROM progressing at all.

The comparison point here would be Goblin vs. Gnomish engineering - whichever you picked, your engineering skill could still go up, but you were locked into certain recipes being available.

If that's all your saying, that you're locked into a specific progression, that's arguable, sure. But you appeared to be saying you were being prevented from progressing if you chose certain covenants, which is just not true.

And your point of complaint is what, that you can't use a specific PvP ability from another Covenant, then switch back to your old Covenant? Seems like an incredibly minor complaint to me. I very much doubt a single PvP ability is going to make much difference to your gameplay, let alone to whether you win or lose BGs. But the RP aspect of actually picking a covenant is likely to appeal to a lot of players.

To me it looks like this is someone who is hopelessly obsessed with the most trivial kind of min-maxing, and doesn't understand that sometimes, using the less-than-ideal ability, or dealing with restrictions in general, can actually be fun. It really can. I've seen this in all sorts of games (computer, tabletop, and so on) over the decades.

[Sondrelk]

See, I already disagree with your assumption that the removal of flying is a good thing. There is another way to make puzzles interesting or non-cheatable in a world with flying, to make even flying interesting. Blizzard just chose the lazy way that also happens to to boost their time spend metrics because everything is more tedious. They could easily make flying more than just high-speed-air-swimming for one. They even had alot of these systems back in TBC but somehow forgot about them, like the AA defenses. That way their alternatives to the walter walking mount upgrades would also make sense, because then you'd actually have a choice and something like the parachute had a purpose.

How exactly would you make flying work then? The only way I could see it work as something you get from the start, or at least during the endgame is if the entire way the game functions was changed. It would require not just a rework of the mechanics of flying, but also how the world is designed. Not just in hiding treasures or placing enemies in building so you cannot dropbomb them, but so that the satisfaction of climning a mountain you thought impassable in game is not undercut by the knowledge that you have essentially hamstrung yourself.

See, I am of the belief that simply asking those who don't want flying to not fly is a meaningless argument, because if it was then you could say the same for any challenge in the game, and I sincerely doubt that the satisfaction gotten from defeating N'zoth on Mythic would still be as sweet if everyone had the option of turning on godmode.

[huth]

See, I already disagree with your assumption that the removal of flying is a good thing. There is another way to make puzzles interesting or non-cheatable in a world with flying, to make even flying interesting. Blizzard just chose the lazy way that also happens to to boost their time spend metrics because everything is more tedious. They could easily make flying more than just high-speed-air-swimming for one. They even had alot of these systems back in TBC but somehow forgot about them, like the AA defenses. That way their alternatives to the walter walking mount upgrades would also make sense, because then you'd actually have a choice and something like the parachute had a purpose.

None of those systems ever actually stopped anybody, that's why they "forgot" about them. Them being able to make flying more than air swimming is just a baseless claim, as well. They may very well have to completely redesign how movement works in the game to do that, which simply wouldn't be worth it.

[Sondrelk]

Also, you specifically mention a parachute being useful. Which is in fact true for Shadowlands, the reason being that flying is not a thing, thereby making something like Zerekriss, the flying necropolis that floats around Maldraxxus a tantalizing prospect for those who choose that covenant. Parachutes are now useful, or you can be a DH and use your infinite glide.

See, this is the kind of thing that we wouldnt get with flying, because the existence of it would be pointless if you can do everything it does but better with a flying mount.

[Nyel]

As someone who doesn't watch WoW youtubers, what does this "ripcord" deal mean? Is it just a weird-as-fuck way of saying "make changing covenants easy"?

As I did understand it, pulling the ripcord eventually means they are removing all the restrictions and implications from Covenants so that are you free in your choice overall and don’t have to worry about cosmetics, player power etc. It‘s a term used by Ion in one of the more recent posts about Shadowlands and players‘ concerns with Covenants in general.

He basically said if it’s not working out as intend, they still have this emergency iteration of Covenants where many of the problems addressed by players get resolved (he didn’t say how that would work though).

And it really hasn’t to do much with whining. Covenants are not well designed in general. The idea is neat, but several classes have game changing abilities that make them incredibly strong (Warlocks come to mind) whereas other classes have Covenants so bad that using their ability results in a net loss or just completely ruins your core rotation (Priest comes to mind). If they had well designed Covenants for each class, people would worry less. But it’s very, very obvious in which classes was put a lot of thinking when it comes to Covenants and other classes where basically none of the devs ever played them while designing the Covenant abilities.

[Sondrelk]

And it really hasn’t to do much with whining. Covenants are not well designed in general. The idea is neat, but several classes have game changing abilities that make them incredibly strong (Warlocks come to mind) whereas other classes have Covenants so bad that using their ability results in a net loss or just completely ruins your core rotation (Priest comes to mind). If they had well designed Covenants for each class, people would worry less. But it’s very, very obvious in which classes was put a lot of thinking when it comes to Covenants and other classes where basically none of the devs ever played them while designing the Covenant abilities.

This sounds more like a problem with the abilities though, not exactly the covenants themselves.

Besides, undermining the strong impactful choice you get from Covenants just because the abilities are not all that well tuned seems like a gross case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, similar to arguing that flying should be available form the start because of an inconveniently placed hill or something.

[Toybox]

I can't wait for the wider playerbase to get their hands on covenants. I think quite a few people will be in for a shock...

[plz delete account]

Prepatch is still coming on the 29th, based on the heaps of evidence.

The Cinematic will most likely drop during October (if it exists) if they wanna emulate BFA.

the heaps of evidence that fooled even me

[MadamSerenity]

The Bastion one plays on an out of the way conversation with an NPC that has nothing to do with the Bastion campaign at all. I will try to find the NPC.