Did the inclusion of Demon Hunters effect the Monk class?

[Raisei]

I am not sure if the reason for removing the option to dual-wield was because of DHs. Probably it was more that the class fantasy required a spec that used a staff with the inclusion of Fuzan.

I do agree that it is a bit of a shame tho. Would love to tank excluively with Martial Arts. Just give Blackout Kick the abilities of Blackout Strike and give it to the tank spec. Perfect.

Thanks to the new Transmog rules I can finally do a weaponless mog in Windwalker at least, by just using the invisible fistweapon that is exclusive to Monks. It looks a ton better then all the other oversized fistweapons.

[Ielenia]

Uh, there's a lot of threads in multiple forums asking for Jab to come back. While I agree there isn't an outcry, that doesn't mean that it's good for a class to lose options simply because a new class enters the game and infringes on its design space.

You mind producing some of those threads, then?

You have a shoddy memory. Jab allowed you to actually attack with your equipped weapon, and in the case of Brewmasters it allowed you to choose from a wider variety of weapons than what they have now. How is having more choice a bad thing? Currently, Brewmasters can only really use staves and polearms, whereas in MoP and WoD they could DW 1h weapons to tank with as well. Additionally you could still do unarmed combat with Jab since it also allowed you to use fist weapons.

It's not about having a "shoddy memory". Jab was, indeed, the only ability that allowed you to use your equipped weapon. And I never said having more options is a bad thing. I just said that the loss of the Jab ability was inconsequential, while you're acting as if the loss of Jab is somewhat comparable to the demonology warlocks losing Metamorphosis. And Monk doesn't have the "option" to do unarmed combat. Monks are about unarmed combat.

Yeah, but my issue with DHs is that they infringed on Monk turf to begin with. Monks could have/should have gotten Double Jump for example. Now the Monk class is pretty much sandwiched between Demon Hunters and Rogues.

If anything, it's the demon hunters who are sandwiched between rogues and monks, in terms of mobility.

[Teriz]

What? Especially the brewmaster lock to 2h weapons is the direct equivalent of frost DK's being forced to dual wield. They pigeonholed all melee speccs into 1 general weapon type, only casters can pick and choose, because their weapons are purely additive stat sticks. Of course it should have ended after legion, but this is more than just some litte cosmetic change, it was part of a streamlining (read: redesigning) of the class mechanics and obviously stayed for the no-effort mess that BfA was class wise. This has nothing to do with DH taking some niche from Monks, this is just some half assed class/loot balancing and misguided class fantasy.

Brewmasters aren't locked to 2H weapons. They're locked to only staves and polearms. DKs can still equip 2H weapons, and have a 2H DPS option in Unholy. No such alternatives exists in the Monk class. They were removed.

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I am not sure if the reason for removing the option to dual-wield was because of DHs. Probably it was more that the class fantasy required a spec that used a staff with the inclusion of Fuzan.

I do agree that it is a bit of a shame tho. Would love to tank excluively with Martial Arts. Just give Blackout Kick the abilities of Blackout Strike and give it to the tank spec. Perfect.

Thanks to the new Transmog rules I can finally do a weaponless mog in Windwalker at least, by just using the invisible fistweapon that is exclusive to Monks. It looks a ton better then all the other oversized fistweapons.

Well again, it wasn't just the removal of the option of DW tanking for Brewmasters, it was also the complete removal of weapon attacks within the DPS spec as well. There is also the case of DHs getting there own version of Gift of the Ox and Guard, and Monks losing Elusive Brew right when Demon Hunters came in with Blur.

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You mind producing some of those threads, then?

Google is your friend.

It's not about having a "shoddy memory". Jab was, indeed, the only ability that allowed you to use your equipped weapon. And I never said having more options is a bad thing. I just said that the loss of the Jab ability was inconsequential, while you're acting as if the loss of Jab is comparable to the demonology warlocks losing Metamorphosis. And Monk doesn't have the "option" to do unarmed combat. Monks are about unarmed combat.


If anything, it's the demon hunters who are sandwiched between rogues and monks, in terms of mobility.

I never said it was on an equal level with Metamorphosis, but it was still a significant loss to the class' identity. The entirety of the Monk concept isn't just unarmed martial arts, but also being able to use a multitude of weapons with martial prowess. Again, it sucked when I started Legion and the beautiful 1h swords and Warglaives I had equipped on my WW Monk weren't able to be used. Instead, the only think my Monk could do was punch, severely lessening my enjoyment of the spec and the class.

The overall point is this; The inclusion of Demon Hunters damaged multiple classes when it entered the game. Hopefully Blizzard won't repeat their mistake with the next class.

[scubi666stacy]

We all know that Blizzard moved Metamorphosis out of the Warlock class in order to allow the introduction of the Demon Hunter class pre-legion, but one class alteration tends to fall under the radar; The change in the DPS and Tanking spec of the Monk class.

In MoP and WoD, the Brewmaster spec had the distinction of being the tank that could dual wield. This included the ability to wield warglaives and other 1h weapons. This was changed in Legion, where the Demon Hunter became the DW tank, and Brewmasters were forced to only be able to wield staves. While that was more fitting of the Brewmaster lore, the Monk class lost a very distinct feature that set their tanking spec apart from other tanking specs, and the Monk class lost a little flair as well.

The Windwalker spec was also altered in Legion. While still being able to equip 1h weapons, their weapon-based attack animations were removed so that regardless of the weapon equipped, the Monk would only attack with fists. Again, while more fitting of the class lore, it felt incredibly cheap, disappointing, and just plain weird to get a beautiful pair of butterfly swords that remained on your back while you attacked.

Additionally Monks lost a few other abilities and distinctions with the arrival of Demon Hunters; In MoP and WoD Monks were regarded as the "mobile class" thanks to their abilities Roll and Flying Serpent Kick. However, Demon Hunters took that mantle with their dashing abilities and double jumps. Demon Hunters got abilities very similar to Guard and Gift of the Ox, which further eroded the distinctiveness of the existing Monk class.

The point? This is why it is important to push for truly distinct classes in WoW. Potential classes which are too similar to existing classes will only cannibalize existing classes and make them worse off than what they were before. Hopefully, the inclusion of the Demon Hunter is the last time we see Blizzard bring in a class with such a limited amount of design space that took abilities and concepts away from multiple existing classes.

Well, I cannot say much because I took quite some time to level my monk and only played him properly in Legion. But, in this regard, my monk was definitively a very mobile tank. You have double roll and transcendence, and you can skill additional movement. Honestly, if monk would not be mobile, I would never ever have been able to do the Brewmaster Mage Tower scenario (and I completed this twice). It's just a different type of mobility compared to the jumping / gliding DH.

I played both classes in Legion and did not had the feeling that one has been intruding on the other. Though I was a bit sad to lose metamorphosis from my Warlock - which in my PoV is a bit more than what monks could have lost to DH. It was a completely different playstyle, being able to tank as a clothie.

[OokOok]

in a way, yes.
this entire issue stems from the lack of cumulative development.
DH's also effected warlocks by motivating them to remove warlock's ability to track demons and see invisible objects to maintain the illusion of class diversity.
so instead of adding things to make classes unique, they remove them to make them special.

Or it just makes more sense for a Demon hunter who's lore says they track demons, to have track demons? lol
Kids man.....

[Ielenia]

Google is your friend.

No.

You made the claim:

Uh, there's a lot of threads in multiple forums asking for Jab to come back.

So it falls on you to provide the evidence.

I never said it was on an equal level with Metamorphosis, but it was still a significant loss to the class' identity.

I never said you said it's on equal level. Only that you act like it's comparable. And, lo and behold, you indeed are.

The entirety of the Monk concept isn't just unarmed martial arts, but also being able to use a multitude of weapons with martial prowess.

No, that's not it. That is completely false. Only the "Jab" skill ever used your equipped weapon, and you're acting as if that single skill also meant that monks are "masters of weapon combat" as well, as if warriors having Heroic Throw makes them "masters of ranged combat."

Monks are not about "martial weapon prowess", not even a little bit. They're about unarmed martial arts.

Again, it sucked when I started Legion and the beautiful 1h swords and Warglaives I had equipped on my WW Monk weren't able to be used.

You didn't have any warglaives on your WW monk, unless you were intentionally gimping yourself by using Illidan's warglaives from TBC, since those were the ONLY warglaives in the game at the time, and are classified as "swords" and therefore used by any class that could dual-wield. All the other warglaives are classified "warglaives" and only DHs can wield.

Instead, the only think my Monk could do was punch, severely lessening my enjoyment of the spec and the class.

Then the monk class isn't for you, if you were playing the class for the weapon-based abilities. That's like playing Warrior because of Heroic Throw.

The overall point is this; The inclusion of Demon Hunters damaged multiple classes when it entered the game. Hopefully Blizzard won't repeat their mistake with the next class.

And your overall point is false, as the demon hunter did not "damage multiple classes" as you claim it does. At best, you can argue the warlocks. But the warlocks, and only the warlocks, does not equal "multiple classes".

[Teriz]

No.

You made the claim:
So it falls on you to provide the evidence.

And I did. Use google.

I never said you said it's on equal level. Only that you act like it's comparable. And, lo and behold, you indeed are.

Well it IS comparable. Both classes lost abilities to a new class. That is a comparable occurrence. Scale and impact are pretty irrelevant.

No, that's not it. That is completely false. Only the "Jab" skill ever used your equipped weapon, and you're acting as if that single skill also meant that monks are "masters of weapon combat" as well, as if warriors having Heroic Throw makes them "masters of ranged combat."

Yeah because that single ability allowed Brewmaster Monks for example to tank with a multitude of weapons. When it was removed, they went from multiple options (swords, maces, fist weapons, axes) to just 2 types of weapons.

Monks are not about "martial weapon prowess", not even a little bit. They're about unarmed martial arts.

Again, I said martial arts prowess. There are a ton of weapons in Martial Arts, especially the Chinese martial arts that the Monk class is largely based on. MoP and WoD fulfilled that fantasy. Legion snuffed it out.

You didn't have any warglaives on your WW monk, unless you were intentionally gimping yourself by using Illidan's warglaives from TBC, since those were the ONLY warglaives in the game at the time, and are classified as "swords" and therefore used by any class that could dual-wield. All the other warglaives are classified "warglaives" and only DHs can wield.

Transmog. And only Monks, DKs, Warriors, Rogues, and DHs can use them.

Then the monk class isn't for you, if you were playing the class for the weapon-based abilities. That's like playing Warrior because of Heroic Throw.

I was playing the class partially because I liked the look of weapons on the back of my character, and being able to actually use that weapons when fighting. Guilty as charged.

And your overall point is false, as the demon hunter did not "damage multiple classes" as you claim it does. At best, you can argue the warlocks. But the warlocks, and only the warlocks, does not equal "multiple classes".

Existing classes losing abilities and options in favor of a new class is damage because there are people who enjoy those lost options and abilities.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Brewmasters aren't locked to 2H weapons. They're locked to only staves and polearms. DKs can still equip 2H weapons, and have a 2H DPS option in Unholy. No such alternatives exists in the Monk class. They were removed.

Sometimes I wonder what is wrong with you..

[jellmoo]

Gotta be honest, this feels like a non issue given how little interaction Monks and their weapons really have. And if we're being honest, Fu Zan is probably one of the most awesome artifacts in the game. Any weapon I pick up gets transmogged to it right away.

The change for Demonology Warlocks was massive when Legion came around and yoinked Metamorphosis away. The change to Monks is largely negligible in comparison.

[Triceron]

Except it didn't feel the same with the Monk class. The loss of Jab really took a lot of the character out of the class, because originally you could choose from multiple weapon types, and Jab provided animation showing you actually attacking with the equipped weapon. In Legion, Brewmasters could only use staves, and regardless of weapon choice, Windwalkers could only punch. This was a pretty glaring omission in Windwalker especially because they gave you two 1h swords that remained on your back the entire time you're attacking. After Legion, the two non-healing Monk specs are still stuck in those two types of attacks, and there's really no reason for it outside of doing it to make Demon Hunters feel more unique.

Yeah but that can't just be blamed on the Demon Hunter. Like I said, factors like the very niche Artifact system affected all classes across the board. Death Knights had their specs rigidly defined by weapon choice; Frost is DW while Unholy is 2H. You say they at least have options, but that's not an option, that's a completely different spec. Which is like if I said yeah if you want to play DW you have an option too - play a different class. Not exactly what you want to hear if you are in favour of the 2H Frost or Frost Tanking playstyles. I mean the same for Warlocks who say they want Meta back; I wouldn't just say 'Well you have a Single target Nuke Spec option'. That doesn't cover the loss.

And frankly in Legion so many classes got this change that it didn't really matter if Demon Hunters were added or not, they were all affected. I really didn't like the Guardian Druid changes, but like I said earlier, Artifacts more than made up for any losses. For all classes.

So Monks did lose something. But I wouldn't say they lost it to any other class, they lost it because Artifacts were a very rigid system, and they wanted to promote class identity through those weapons. Monks and staves go hand-in-hand, that's a huge part of their identity. And yeah, I would say the Monk is a let-down visually because like casters, they never use their weapons in battle. And there's really nothing to replace that loss, as their hand-to-hand combat visuals are completely lackluster. If anything, I think if they improved their visuals and gave it more 'Oomph', the Monk class would be more popular.

Aesthetics matter.

[Teriz]

Gotta be honest, this feels like a non issue given how little interaction Monks and their weapons really have. And if we're being honest, Fu Zan is probably one of the most awesome artifacts in the game. Any weapon I pick up gets transmogged to it right away.

The change for Demonology Warlocks was massive when Legion came around and yoinked Metamorphosis away. The change to Monks is largely negligible in comparison.

Yeah like I said, it wasnt just the removal of Jab and weapon animations, it was also the removal of abilities like Elusive Brew, Guard, and Blizzard giving DHs a better version of GotO.

Is it a huge issue for the community as a whole? Not really. However it caused certain players like myself to drop the class ( which also occurred with some Demonology players), which shouldn't have happened.

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Yeah but that can't just be blamed on the Demon Hunter. Like I said, factors like the very niche Artifact system affected all classes across the board. Death Knights had their specs rigidly defined by weapon choice; Frost is DW while Unholy is 2H. You say they at least have options, but that's not an option, that's a completely different spec. Which is like if I said yeah if you want to play DW you have an option too - play a different class. Not exactly what you want to hear if you are in favour of the 2H Frost or Frost Tanking playstyles. I mean the same for Warlocks who say they want Meta back; I wouldn't just say 'Well you have a Single target Nuke Spec option'. That doesn't cover the loss.

And frankly in Legion so many classes got this change that it didn't really matter if Demon Hunters were added or not, they were all affected. I really didn't like the Guardian Druid changes, but like I said earlier, Artifacts more than made up for any losses. For all classes.

So Monks did lose something. But I wouldn't say they lost it to any other class, they lost it because Artifacts were a very rigid system, and they wanted to promote class identity through those weapons. Monks and staves go hand-in-hand, that's a huge part of their identity. And yeah, I would say the Monk is a let-down visually because like casters, they never use their weapons in battle. And there's really nothing to replace that loss, as their hand-to-hand combat visuals are completely lackluster. If anything, I think if they improved their visuals and gave it more 'Oomph', the Monk class would be more popular.

Aesthetics matter.

Yeah, I simply can't agree with this assessment, because the change to the Monk class was more restrictive, and really made no sense. Artifacts are no longer an issue, yet the limitations persists. Demon Hunters are still around though, and that probably explains why the Monks could no longer be a DW agility tank, or mobile DW agility DPS.

[Triceron]

Yeah, I simply can't agree with this assessment, because the change to the Monk class was more restrictive, and really made no sense. Artifacts are no longer an issue, yet the limitations persists. Demon Hunters are still around though, and that probably explains why the Monks could no longer be a DW agility tank, or mobile DW agility DPS.

Have you played many other classes since Legion?

The restrictive gameplay exists across the board. Especially the case after Artifact Talents were removed!

If anything, this is a byproduct of homogenization more than a restriction of gameplay, because all Classes are given the same amount of things to press, just that the feeling is it's not as fun for some classes than others because of personal preference, like aesthetics or a new direction for gameplay.

And here, it just sounds like you're more disappointed that they've lost more options than it being attributed to some other class taking those things away. You just happen to equate the loss to the inclusion of another class, but to be honest this was something that was going to happen anyways considering if you look at all specs, there is no 'option' of Dual Wield vs 2H. There is only one style of gameplay per spec, and sadly the Windwalker gameplay was one of those who got hit by the changes. So were Shamans and DK's.

To be fair to your argument, if the Monk was the only class that got affected by this change I would be inclined to agree. But it's pretty clear that in Legion, even classes that didn't need any change like Guardian Druids went through a paradigm shift. Most of these changes were absolutely unwarranted and unnecessary from a Player's POV. This applies to Survival Hunters, Demonology Locks, Discipline Priests, All Monk specs and more. And I mean honestly I could go and place the blame on DH's taking away the Druid's Dodge Tank niche, but in truth even the DH isn't that much of a Dodge Tank and frankly neither is the Monk. The truth is it's all been homogenized. Since Legion, each Tank Spec has the same type of 'Generate Resource, press Defensive button' style of gameplay; just different flavours of it like Parries or Dodges or Armor boosts or Health Regen.

Which is my point about classes that come in the future. Whatever we get, it's gonna fit into WoW Madlibs style, and not be as 'creatively expressive' as classes once were. Even the Demon Hunter, as cool as it is, is highly derivative of existing play. And a creatively expressive class like the DK with multiple specs filling multiple roles or the Monk having many options of gameplay have all been homogenized into singular styles of play. Any new class will have to fit the same standard 'generate resource, spend for damage/heals/mitigation' gameplay.

[jellmoo]

Yeah like I said, it wasnt just the removal of Jab and weapon animations, it was also the removal of abilities like Elusive Brew, Guard, and Blizzard giving DHs a better version of GotO.

Is it a huge issue for the community as a whole? Not really. However it caused certain players like myself to drop the class ( which also occurred with some Demonology players), which shouldn't have happened.

Let me pose a hypothetical. Let's assume that the whole reason these changes were made is to accommodate the inclusion of the Demon Hunter (and to be honest, it may not actually be the case). If so, does the reason make a massive difference?

Classes and specs have changed greatly over the years. Demonology is a great example, but also look at Survival. It probably had the biggest change of all. Or even Death Knights going from all specs can dual wield and tank to specific weapon setups and only Blood can tank. Or splitting Druids into separate specs for Feral and Guardian. Enhancement going from two handers to dual wield. Hunters moving from mana to focus. These are all massive changes that fundamentally changed the way these classes played. Changes that had a much larger impact than the changes the Monk has gone through.

Does the reason in this case matter a whole lot? Previous reasons range from balance issues, class fantasy, spec identity, to offering better success at a role. Does the reason of fitting in a new class make the situation fundamentally worse?

[TigTone]

Monk gameplay is still very different from a demon hunters.

[Ielenia]

And I did. Use google.

Dude, it doesn't work that way. You need to provide the evidence for your claim. The legwork is yours to do. Because otherwise I can just claim that I searched on google but nothing showed up.

Well it IS comparable. Both classes lost abilities to a new class. That is a comparable occurrence. Scale and impact are pretty irrelevant.

No, scale and impact are very relevant, in this case. Metamorphosis was the defining ability of the spec it belonged to, in the warlock class, while the Jab ability was just one single ability that did not define the spec in the monk class. To say both are comparable is to downplay the removal of any ability from the game, especially the prunes.

Yeah because that single ability allowed Brewmaster Monks for example to tank with a multitude of weapons. When it was removed, they went from multiple options (swords, maces, fist weapons, axes) to just 2 types of weapons.

The concept of the class never changed, though. Nor did its playstyle. The brewmaster monk was still the "drunk kung-fu master" spec. It did not change with the restriction to 2H weapons only.

Again, I said martial arts prowess. There are a ton of weapons in Martial Arts, especially the Chinese martial arts that the Monk class is largely based on. MoP and WoD fulfilled that fantasy. Legion snuffed it out.

The monk class is based on the RPG archetype of the oriental martial artist, which is a character that fights bare-handed.

Transmog.

BS. The Warglaives of Azzinoth were never transmogable. And in Legion, only DHs could do it.

And only Monks, DKs, Warriors, Rogues, and DHs can use them.

Which just happen to be the only classes that can dual-wield. And, no, other than the Warglaives of Azzinoth, which are classified as swords in the game, no class other than DHs can wield warglaives.

I was playing the class partially because I liked the look of weapons on the back of my character, and being able to actually use that weapons when fighting. Guilty as charged.

Then, like I said, the monk class is not for you.

Existing classes losing abilities and options in favor of a new class is damage because there are people who enjoy those lost options and abilities.

Again, this is an argument you can use for the warlock class only. And like I pointed out, one class is not "multiple classes".

[Teriz]

Let me pose a hypothetical. Let's assume that the whole reason these changes were made is to accommodate the inclusion of the Demon Hunter (and to be honest, it may not actually be the case). If so, does the reason make a massive difference?

Yes, because unlike changes for balance, or for making existing classes more distinct, it's a change to create design space for a class that lacks inherent design space.

Classes and specs have changed greatly over the years. Demonology is a great example, but also look at Survival. It probably had the biggest change of all. Or even Death Knights going from all specs can dual wield and tank to specific weapon setups and only Blood can tank. Or splitting Druids into separate specs for Feral and Guardian. Enhancement going from two handers to dual wield. Hunters moving from mana to focus. These are all massive changes that fundamentally changed the way these classes played. Changes that had a much larger impact than the changes the Monk has gone through.

Survival was changed because the three Hunter specs played too similar to each other coming off of WoD. Rogues had a similar issue with their specializations. Change done for that purpose makes a bit more sense, because it makes the class better. Demon Hunters cannibalizing concepts from Warlocks, Monks, and other classes is a different matter entirely.

Does the reason in this case matter a whole lot? Previous reasons range from balance issues, class fantasy, spec identity, to offering better success at a role. Does the reason of fitting in a new class make the situation fundamentally worse?

Again, yes, because it is a bad precedent to set. Despite design space being made for the Demon Hunter class for example, its inclusion only increased the feeling of homogenization within the classes because it didn't feel all that different than current classes. We already had a class that can turn into a Demon. We already had a class who was mobile and could equip two 1h weapons. We already had a class that combined magic and melee. We already had a class that could hunt demons and other creatures. In the end, it's better to bring in diverse classes instead of classes that are nothing more than retreads of what we already have.

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Have you played many other classes since Legion?

The restrictive gameplay exists across the board. Especially the case after Artifact Talents were removed!

If anything, this is a byproduct of homogenization more than a restriction of gameplay, because all Classes are given the same amount of things to press, just that the feeling is it's not as fun for some classes than others because of personal preference, like aesthetics or a new direction for gameplay.

And here, it just sounds like you're more disappointed that they've lost more options than it being attributed to some other class taking those things away. You just happen to equate the loss to the inclusion of another class, but to be honest this was something that was going to happen anyways considering if you look at all specs, there is no 'option' of Dual Wield vs 2H. There is only one style of gameplay per spec, and sadly the Windwalker gameplay was one of those who got hit by the changes. So were Shamans and DK's.

To be fair to your argument, if the Monk was the only class that got affected by this change I would be inclined to agree. But it's pretty clear that in Legion, even classes that didn't need any change like Guardian Druids went through a paradigm shift. Most of these changes were absolutely unwarranted and unnecessary from a Player's POV. This applies to Survival Hunters, Demonology Locks, Discipline Priests, All Monk specs and more. And I mean honestly I could go and place the blame on DH's taking away the Druid's Dodge Tank niche, but in truth even the DH isn't that much of a Dodge Tank and frankly neither is the Monk. The truth is it's all been homogenized. Since Legion, each Tank Spec has the same type of 'Generate Resource, press Defensive button' style of gameplay; just different flavours of it like Parries or Dodges or Armor boosts or Health Regen.

Please tell me of something removed in the Druid class or any other class that equals the Monk losing the ability to use 4 out of the 6 available weapon types in its Brewmaster spec, or being able to use weapons period in the Windwalker spec. Swinging weapons isn't a huge deal in the Druid class, but in a class where your weapon is visible at all times, it kind of sucks to have a pair of swords and only being limited to only being able to hit with your fists.

Which is my point about classes that come in the future. Whatever we get, it's gonna fit into WoW Madlibs style, and not be as 'creatively expressive' as classes once were. Even the Demon Hunter, as cool as it is, is highly derivative of existing play. And a creatively expressive class like the DK with multiple specs filling multiple roles or the Monk having many options of gameplay have all been homogenized into singular styles of play. Any new class will have to fit the same standard 'generate resource, spend for damage/heals/mitigation' gameplay.

That's an entirely different argument though. The argument here is that when a class enters the game with too similar thematics to existing classes, existing classes lose abilities and players of those classes are effected by it.

[iosdeveloper]

I actually feel like monks were a mistake. Weak adaptation of diablo class with funky animations.
Could work but really doesn't, imo. Lots of players don't even bother checking out their abilities.

DHs are a pretty popular fantasy and turn the game into Action game.
Feels like next gen class to me, like it's from WoW 2.0

[Teriz]

Dude, it doesn't work that way. You need to provide the evidence for your claim. The legwork is yours to do. Because otherwise I can just claim that I searched on google but nothing showed up.

Like I said, Google.com. Take it or leave it.

No, scale and impact are very relevant, in this case. Metamorphosis was the defining ability of the spec it belonged to, in the warlock class, while the Jab ability was just one single ability that did not define the spec in the monk class. To say both are comparable is to downplay the removal of any ability from the game, especially the prunes.

The point of comparison is that both classes lost something to the Demon Hunter class. If I was making the argument that one lost more than the other, then yes scale and impact would be relevant. However in this case, the only point is that both the Monk and Warlock class lost abilities to Demon Hunters. That's even the title of the thread.

The concept of the class never changed, though. Nor did its playstyle. The brewmaster monk was still the "drunk kung-fu master" spec. It did not change with the restriction to 2H weapons only.

The loss of 4 out of 6 available weapons is a significant loss in play style. What if you don't like using Staffs or Polearms?

The monk class is based on the RPG archetype of the oriental martial artist, which is a character that fights bare-handed.

Is that why 2/3 specs use a staff?

Then, like I said, the monk class is not for you.

Thanks to Demon Hunters.

Again, this is an argument you can use for the warlock class only. And like I pointed out, one class is not "multiple classes".

Considering that my Monk is forever stuck on level 100, it applies to that class as well. I'm sure I'm not the only Monk player who dropped the class because of the changes.

[zlygork]

Oh yes, another Teriz vs. Ielenia productive, never ending argument to see who is better at ignoring and twisting each other's arguments and what is canon or not in order to convince blizzard to officialize whatever they want!

Seriously, do you guys still expect to change each other's minds?

OT: The inclusion of demon hunter doesn't seem to have affected monks at all from what I can think of; it affected demo for the better (imo), but I don't see anything in the monk that might have been changed to not clash with the DH... Except perhaps the fact that monks deserve double jump more.

[Teriz]

OT: The inclusion of demon hunter doesn't seem to have affected monks at all from what I can think of; it affected demo for the better (imo), but I don't see anything in the monk that might have been changed to not clash with the DH... Except perhaps the fact that monks deserve double jump more.

You don't think Monks losing the ability to be DW tanks, and Windwalkers losing the ability to use all DW weapons except fist weapons had anything to do with the inclusion of DHs? That's an interesting take.

I'm also a little disappointed that DHs got a superior version of GotO.