Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Schizoide]

My problem with LFR is that it isn't fun. I have no problems with allowing people to see the content, experience the story, etc. It just isn't fun.

[kaminaris]

My problem with LFR is that it isn't fun. I have no problems with allowing people to see the content, experience the story, etc. It just isn't fun.

For you, people who can't otherwise see raids, probably have it fun for couple of runs.

[Sesto]

I don't raid Mythic (or raid at all, really) and I hate LFR.

Raiding has always been about both the journey and the destination to me, and the destination is actively cheapened by LFR's existence. I don't enjoy LFR normally and I don't feel motivated to raid seriously if a watered down version is so easily accessible.

Whereas with the old system, knowing that I could only face those raid bosses by improving my character actually made the experience exciting.

[Awsyme]

It's regarded as a dumbed down 'cheap' way to get loot. Which... eh... look. The loot is garbage. That's a bad reason unless you're trying to use it as a stepping stone for an alts ilvl. And even then mythic+ and world quests/pearls are FAR superior.

What I would agree on though is it helps splits the raiders into 4 tiers. WoW probably only needs 2 tiers. A raid tier for ordinary folk and one for mythic raiders. Not four. Now we're in a situation where you might theoretically feel compelled to run LFG, Normal, Heroic and Mythic - if you want to get everything from a raid. Which is a pain. So there's that.

Raiding as a whole used to be regarded as endgame. Getting to see the inside of a place was a goal a lot of us aspired to. I get why a sort of... tourist mode... exists but it kind of defeats the purpose of forming a regular social group of people to play with. Yes higher levels are harder and more rewarding - but for a LOT of the player base they'll just see something like the Eternal Palace, do it a few times on LFG and never bother trying anything else.

And it IS tourist mode. It's boring. No real challenges as nothing really good drops. Kind of a waste.

[tyrlaan]

It is what lfr changed forever with its conception people remember. LFR is terrible but it's true problem is wlthe knock on effect it has had since release and what it paved the way for.

It is why we sit here today. A 15 year old version of the game crushing what is current. Accessibility is poison it kills every game it touches.

So you replied with an example of one of those "no justifiable reasons". Good job.

If someone does LFR, how is this killing the game? Answer: it isn't.

If someone does LFR, how does it affect you? Answer: it doesn't.

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Every aspect of the game affects everyone even if you don't touch it. The existence of LFR changes people's mind about raiding in general even if it's unconscious, there's always this "why put in time and effort when I can do the same content but in easy mode?", being in a raid should feel special, it should not make you feel like AFKing or playing like shit is fine.

Nonsense.

LFR gets you two things: the basic completion achievements that just award achievement points and gear that is subpar to what you can get from world content.

Meanwhile, anyone who thinks you can AFK in a normal raid is a) an idiot and b) soon to get kicked from the raid. Hell AFKers get kicked from LFR. Your hyperbole is flat out wrong.

It doesn't take away from "real" raiding in any measurable way other than people who really want us to think it does.

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The problem is the fact it destroys the social aspect by having things so easily accessible through the menu.

Also nonsense.

This is presumably also an argument against LFD or any other grouping functionality in the game. You know what these tools replace? Spamming "LF2M for VC" in general chat. There's no "social aspect" being destroyed here.

[tyrlaan]

I don't raid Mythic (or raid at all, really) and I hate LFR.

Raiding has always been about both the journey and the destination to me, and the destination is actively cheapened by LFR's existence. I don't enjoy LFR normally and I don't feel motivated to raid seriously if a watered down version is so easily accessible.

Whereas with the old system, knowing that I could only face those raid bosses by improving my character actually made the experience exciting.

Why? Why does this alter your motivation in any way?

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It's regarded as a dumbed down 'cheap' way to get loot. Which... eh... look. The loot is garbage. That's a bad reason unless you're trying to use it as a stepping stone for an alts ilvl. And even then mythic+ and world quests/pearls are FAR superior.

Exactly.

Raiding as a whole used to be regarded as endgame. Getting to see the inside of a place was a goal a lot of us aspired to. I get why a sort of... tourist mode... exists but it kind of defeats the purpose of forming a regular social group of people to play with. Yes higher levels are harder and more rewarding - but for a LOT of the player base they'll just see something like the Eternal Palace, do it a few times on LFG and never bother trying anything else.

And it IS tourist mode. It's boring. No real challenges as nothing really good drops. Kind of a waste.

I challenge the notion that these people in LFR would be raiding normally if it didn't exist.

[Sesto]

Why? Why does this alter your motivation in any way?

I literally explained why in the last sentence.
Killing Illidan Stormrage (Mythic) for the first time would never be as satifying as killing THE Illidan Stormrage. It's the same reason I don't play most video games on their hardest difficulties, but love the Soulsborne series.

Also I find it hilarious you're disagreeing with someone who believes some people won't raid higher difficulties if LFR exists while simultaneously talking to someone in that exact situation.

[Awsyme]

[QUOTE/]
I challenge the notion that these people in LFR would be raiding normally if it didn't exist.[/QUOTE]

Let's say... back in the day there was more incentive at least to raid. A LOT more incentive.

[Relapses]

raiding is is just as bad to the mmorpg experience as battlegrounds and arenas.
everytime you guys pull the mmo card against lfr it just show that you think isolationalism is fine as long as it occurs in your preferred bubble.

it's supposed to be about adventuring together in an open world not warping into various instances.

Raiding is the one thing WoW offers that is unable to be achieved in any other game out there. There other MMOs, sure, but only WoW has raiding the way that it is. Most MMOs can provide world content but only WoW has raiding. With WoW's singular defining feature being raiding it makes sense that there has to be an easily accessible version of raiding available to its playerbase. Debates can be had on whether the current difficulty is beneficial for the game (I think it's too easy) but the fact of the matter is that it's here to stay whether we want it or not. IMO, the question that we should be asking is if the LFR were removed, what would we replace it with? Is there a viable alternative to easily accessible raiding that wouldn't involve a queue?

[glowpipe]

I honestly don't understand why this is even a subject. If you don't like LFR, its not for you, so just don't do it. I have never done a lfr, it has never effected me in any way, shape or form. Let people who want to do lfr do lfr, and if you don't like it, go do normal, heroic or mythic. It has no impact on the game what so ever

[Lex Icon]

Raiding is the one thing WoW offers that is unable to be achieved in any other game out there. There other MMOs, sure, but only WoW has raiding the way that it is. Most MMOs can provide world content but only WoW has raiding. With WoW's singular defining feature being raiding it makes sense that there has to be an easily accessible version of raiding available to its playerbase. Debates can be had on whether the current difficulty is beneficial for the game (I think it's too easy) but the fact of the matter is that it's here to stay whether we want it or not. IMO, the question that we should be asking is if the LFR were removed, what would we replace it with? Is there a viable alternative to easily accessible raiding that wouldn't involve a queue?

there's plenty of options(in other games). the only reason wow has the budget for it's currrent state of affairs is because of it. remove that and see what happens.

[tyrlaan]

I literally explained why in the last sentence.
Killing Illidan Stormrage (Mythic) for the first time would never be as satifying as killing THE Illidan Stormrage. It's the same reason I don't play most video games on their hardest difficulties, but love the Soulsborne series.

Also I find it hilarious you're disagreeing with someone who believes some people won't raid higher difficulties if LFR exists while simultaneously talking to someone in that exact situation.

I didn't clarify that I was speaking in general terms, but presumably that could have been inferred. Speaking in absolutes when millions of people play is guaranteed to be wrong. I imagine you are in the minority and not the majority.

Let's say... back in the day there was more incentive at least to raid. A LOT more incentive.

The only incentive raiding had pre-LFR that it doesn't have post-LFR is that the only way to see raid content was to raid. And arguably, quite easily, LFR is raiding, just watered down.

What else was there that is gone now?

I honestly don't understand why this is even a subject. If you don't like LFR, its not for you, so just don't do it. I have never done a lfr, it has never effected me in any way, shape or form. Let people who want to do lfr do lfr, and if you don't like it, go do normal, heroic or mythic. It has no impact on the game what so ever

Exactly.

[Relapses]

there's plenty of options(in other games). the only reason wow has the budget for it's currrent state of affairs is because of it. remove that and see what happens.

I don't think Blizzard is any position to just remove the LFR and "see what happens."

[Alydael]

You can say whatever you want.

LFR saved this game. Many people that don't have time to raid, use LFR to get their little raid on. They don't have time to devout to a video game to raid the "proper" way (as defined by you guys on this forum).

Instead of shunning them (like the people in this thread that insult those people do), Blizz decided to still accept their money. Many of these players would unsub if they stopped LFR.

Look at all the stuff that happened at Activision/Blizz this year (business wise), not so sure WoW would be so healthy without those subs.

You know who really kills this game? All the elitist types that insult people that don't play the game the way elitists think they should. That is the "toxic WoW community" that many people cite when asked why they don't sub or play anymore. That is who is taking all the money out of WoW (money that could be used to make the game better). Toxic community can kill a game- just look at what happened at the start of Wildstar. The community literally killed that game (quickly too).

Blizzard makes a game. They charge you 15$ to access it and play for a month. Part of the beauty of this game is anyone can play and play the way they want to. You want to just log in and turn it into a Pokemon like game with Pet battles? Go ahead, knock yourself out. You want to just quest, sure! You want to go through all the work and time to make a raid team and raid? Go ahead. PvP more your speed? Do you want instanced, arena or world? We even have some PvP world quests if that's your niche.

I will never understand why people try to be such tyrants and enforce an extremely narrow view of how a game (a game they didn't make, never worked at and have nothing to do with in an official capacity) should be played and that others are somehow wrong for not playing it that way. Driving away players and funds from the game while doing it and then complaining there isn't enough content! Literally makes absolutely no sense.

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I don't think Blizzard is any position to just remove the LFR and "see what happens."

That would be the beginning of the end of the game. I think it got a little hairy business wise this year. They can't bleed a whole bunch of subs by removing a feature that takes almost no Dev resources to make.

[Chaelexi]

The first time I tried LFR I believe I summed it up to my friends in a few words, a cesspool. If I was a developer and I created any content that was that painful to experience, I'd purge it as soon as I could from existence. Leave the raids to people who want to spend the time to condition and be serious about that kind of content. I'd personally have entry level as the Heroic difficulty and implement similar to Ulduar hard modes (example, Mimiron Big Red Button) which would equate to a Mythic difficulty. All raids would be flex, 10-25.

Flex kills the ability to tune a raid to high difficulties and you get groups that figure out the optimal comp for each fight for the world first/progression where as set size for the top difficulty allows for stiff checks to be added that can not cheesed by swapping out a few players for a lower %.

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It's an unnecessary difficulty mode with a reward structure that doesn't encourage players to improve themselves or actually learn how to play as a team. It's detrimental to the game.

My $0.02.

I am a mythic raider so don't retort with you can not complete....content. You do not explain how it is detrimental, some players do not have the capability or time to improve themselves so LFR allows them to experience content in a reasonable method without having to arrange a group. The only thing I would like to see is TF gear be limited to the next tier of gear.

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Its not because "someone else also went to the same Metallica concert i went to" that the experience lost value.
Its not about what "others" do at all. Nobody cares about other people.
Its about ME having the option to pick the easy mode at any given time. The problem is me not facing any adversity.

What is happening in LFR is something similar to this (giving your example):

-There is a Metallica concert in Orlando next week
BUT
-I live in a city where Metallica gives concerts everyday (aka i have the LFR option at my disposal)

I dont want to go to Orlando to see Metallica, when I (me) can go to their concert everyday on my city.

But when Metallica gives the concert in Orlando they play preblack album and the everyday Concert is just Reload tracks.

[Milfshaked]

LFR saved this game.

They can't bleed a whole bunch of subs by removing a feature that takes almost no Dev resources to make.

What is your basis for this? Looking at any data would suggest the opposite. WoW has been on quite a steady decline ever since around that time LFR was introduced. Now of course, that does mean that LFR is responsible for this decline, there are of course other factors. It seems quite wild though to suggest that LFR saved the game when there is absolutely nothing to support it and all existing evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.


You are making quite a big assumption by claiming that they would bleed subs. WoW has been bleeding subs for a very long time which suggests that the current model is not working. Making changes to the current system could also possibly have the effect of gaining subs.

[ghays]

Because they want to think their digital toys are better than others'

That was literally the argument, albeit phrased somewhat differently, during BC when epic PVP gear became available. Many in the raiding community howled. and complained that PVP wasn’t real end game content and should only have rewards inferior to raiding epics. As if players who focused PVP in endgame were second class players. So Blizzard devs caved and introduced resilience, and differently budgeted stars on PVP gear.

For some people, being successful is about keeping other people down.

[frott]

What is your basis for this? Looking at any data would suggest the opposite. WoW has been on quite a steady decline ever since around that time LFR was introduced. Now of course, that does mean that LFR is responsible for this decline, there are of course other factors. It seems quite wild though to suggest that LFR saved the game when there is absolutely nothing to support it and all existing evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.


You are making quite a big assumption by claiming that they would bleed subs. WoW has been bleeding subs for a very long time which suggests that the current model is not working. Making changes to the current system could also possibly have the effect of gaining subs.

Just because WoW has been in decline since LFR doesn't mean LFR didn't have a net positive effect on subscriber retention or peak values.

I know plenty of people who only stay subscribed long enough to complete LFR for each dungeon. They would be subscribed less if LFR didn't exist.


In other words, WoW's subscription totals would be lower without LFR.

[Big Thanks]

But when Metallica gives the concert in Orlando they play preblack album and the everyday Concert is just Reload tracks.

I think everyone agrees with "different strokes for different folks"
In my case...i dont see the "increased difficulty" as something to pixel-orgasm about.

I pixel-orgasm when i dont have a easy mode I can queue....and when the only source of loot comes from raids. (only true in Vanilla, in TBC we had PvP vendors)

[frott]

That was literally the argument, albeit phrased somewhat differently, during BC when epic PVP gear became available. Many in the raiding community howled. and complained that PVP wasn’t real end game content and should only have rewards inferior to raiding epics. As if players who focused PVP in endgame were second class players. So Blizzard devs caved and introduced resilience, and differently budgeted stars on PVP gear.

For some people, being successful is about keeping other people down.

Wrong. The issue was that PVP gear was BIS for raiding, so now in order to be optimized for PVE you were required to do PVP.

Same issue happened in reverse: to be the best in PVP you had to have PVE trinkets.


You are talking about "inferior rewards" in a vacuum. The point was that you shouldn't get BETTER rewards out of PVP for use in PVE, and someone new to arenas shouldn't be crushing everyone because they have raid gear.


The strawman of "PVP should be worse than PVE" was never relevant and had no bearing on anything, yet you see this weird whine a lot on forums like it was actually the issue. It was not.