Why are stats so big again?

[Kalisandra]

It could also be to prevent another Naxx25 from happening, where the raid was literally cleared by raids full of people still wearing Sunwell gear.

That was because LK-Naxx was tuned to be easy. Also, most 'in Seunwell gear' clears were actually in Sunwell plus crafted i200 weapons gear (the Titansteel Destroyer, for example), and as melee classes were still doing 30-50% of their DPS as white damage then, the weapon mattered to an insane degree.

On top of that, Sunwell gear (and Season 4 PvP gear) wasn't nearly as far behind in ilevel as end-expansion gear tends to be now, and nor was stat-rot very strong going from 70 to 80 at the time. Unlike Legion to BfA, where each level felt like a step backwards, you got more powerful as you levelled in Northrend back then, even without better gear.

[rhorle]

how about, we go back to expansions being expansions and not fucking seasons that remove more and more of our spells and abilities?

It is a perception thing. Every expansion the new normal was moved up. With a squish the new normal is moved down. The meaning of character power is the same. We grow from the current expansions base line. Where we start doesn't really matter because the starting point was just an unrelated number. Blizzard tweaks it to mean whatever stat % and meaning they want.

[Malikath]

That was because LK-Naxx was tuned to be easy. Also, most 'in Seunwell gear' clears were actually in Sunwell plus crafted i200 weapons gear (the Titansteel Destroyer, for example), and as melee classes were still doing 30-50% of their DPS as white damage then, the weapon mattered to an insane degree.

On top of that, Sunwell gear (and Season 4 PvP gear) wasn't nearly as far behind in ilevel as end-expansion gear tends to be now, and nor was stat-rot very strong going from 70 to 80 at the time. Unlike Legion to BfA, where each level felt like a step backwards, you got more powerful as you levelled in Northrend back then, even without better gear.

or that it was just as easy as it was in vanilla and after BC the playerbase that survived sunwell was more then capable for a vanilla raid.
the mechanics weren't complex or requiring extreme attention.

that's because WoW operated on a set power-scale back then, before the squishes the only things out lvling mobs did was add crushing blows and remove missing, with the squish one of the compensation mechanics they added was a lvl-based damage multiplier so you could still solo raids and the like after you were squished down beneath them in power.

[Malikath]

It is a perception thing. Every expansion the new normal was moved up. With a squish the new normal is moved down. The meaning of character power is the same. We grow from the current expansions base line. Where we start doesn't really matter because the starting point was just an unrelated number. Blizzard tweaks it to mean whatever stat % and meaning they want.

it's literally not, when you lvled from 60-70-80 you gained power as you replaced gear aslong as you didn't break the set.
into BFA with the scaling with lvl mobs the fact that rating means less chance per lvl means you are actually getting weaker as you lvl in relation to the mobs you're fighting.

[PaladinBash]

Numberssssssss

[rhorle]

it's literally not, when you lvled from 60-70-80 you gained power as you replaced gear aslong as you didn't break the set.
into BFA with the scaling with lvl mobs the fact that rating means less chance per lvl means you are actually getting weaker as you lvl in relation to the mobs you're fighting.

You still gain power while leveling. The base line though is changed. Where you started off at the ending of the previous expansion when you reference the 60-80 leveling we now start off at an independent baseline. It is just perception. We still gain power it just starts off at a different spot depending on squishes and other factors. Its not like it was all that constant anyways since Blizzard was constantly adjusting what percent you got per points or adding/removing stat affects.

I am not saying that character power isn't an important thing. People should be tricked into thinking they are growing more powerful. But in the end it is just a perception thing. A trick. When the new expansion dropped I was no longer at the top of the base line but the bottom. I was now weak and needed to work my way back up to the top.

Seasons have just adjusted that process a little bit. Instead of one big leap in base line power it is now gradually increased with each tier. It is just a perception thing. Just because the base line is moved doesn't mean my power gain is any different.

In BfA I literally gained power as I replaced gear while leveling. The baseline changed at level 116 though which made it go down until it climbed back up to uldir item levels.

[Shaetha]

and entirely irrelevant, as LFR isn't just a multiplayer match-make but a dumbed-down game mode that's had far-reaching effects on the game as a whole causing things in normal/heroic/mythic to be nerfed aswell.

again, appeal to normalcy is just another fallacy.
furthermore many of those games have been on the same slow decline as WoW, MW and BF both have on average sold less and slower then their predecessors, meanwhile apex died faster then the ghost of christmas present.

Yep, every multiplayer game is dying. Just as much as everything alive is dying. I'm not really sure how an observation of reality can be a fallacy, but you do you.

You can reject reality all you want, but the fact is raid finder is filling a niche and isn't going anywhere.

[Super Kami Dende]

Hopefully now that Classic is out, the People scared of big numbers can just go there and we'll stop requiring Squishes.

[Malikath]

Yep, every multiplayer game is dying. Just as much as everything alive is dying. I'm not really sure how an observation of reality can be a fallacy, but you do you.

You can reject reality all you want, but the fact is raid finder is filling a niche and isn't going anywhere.

nah, its going to the grave with retail WoW.
while gaming as a whole grows to greater numbers as a world-wide hobby.

[Ielenia]

just put 1.54m stamina, whats the difference between that and 1540 stamina? oh nothing just blizzard doing pointless "busy work" to look like they're doing something useful but really they're just fucking shit up again with every squish they do. Just like redesigning specs is "content" yeah amazing your spec gets broken for 6 months until they redesign it again....main reason i quit, too much squishes and redesigning of things that aren't broken then they break the fucking game and you wait months for a spec to be playable, or old content gets buffed because squishes didn't actually squish properly. No thanks blizz but keep busy doing that redesign and squish "content"

Stat squish has nothing to do with class re-design. I much prefer the squish because I like to see the exact damage number I'm doing instead of having to see abreviations because otherwise the number would be so big it'd take the entire length of my monitor, or be so small I wouldn't be able to read it.

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No.

You could just put a hard cap on the stats, like a level cap.

Say the cap of the game is 60.... then the latest expansion is levels 60-70.

Then next exp, everyone above 60 is bumped back down to 60, and levels to 70 in the newest expansion's content.

Then we would have consistent endgame stats instead of this constant nonsense of inflating and squishing the numbers every other expansion as an excuse to make our level seem bigger

I don't know if you're joking of being serious.

People already complained how the stat squish was somehow a "loss of power" (when it really wasn't) and are now complaining about the level squish also being a "loss of power" (when, again, it actually isn't)...

But here you are, wanting an actual loss of power? Either that, or you're asking for level squishes to happen in each and every expansion.

Yeah. So you're either wanting an actual loss of power, or getting rid of character progression.

[Dellis0991]

Wasn't there a stat squish right in BFA? I just reached 120 and got some benthic gear and my stats are as high as 1500 stamina on some pieces. What the fuck are they doing? Wouldn't they need another stat squish again right at the beginning of the next expansion? Why are they even doing this?

They planning on squishing the shit again so does it even matter?

[Malikath]

They planning on squishing the shit again so does it even matter?

no, nothing matters, that's why no one gives a shit.

[Socialhealer]

Stat squish has nothing to do with class re-design. I much prefer the squish because I like to see the exact damage number I'm doing instead of having to see abreviations because otherwise the number would be so big it'd take the entire length of my monitor, or be so small I wouldn't be able to read it.

As i said you just have 1.54m damage, a mob could have say 60m hp you know you're doing 1.54 out of 60. or 1540 out of 60000.

Instead no just squish the game twice and fuck ALL the scaling, timewalking gets fucked, old raids get fucked, leveling up gets fucked, all takes months and months to fix all the bugs. What a fucking shitshow by blizzard.

[Lucetia]

They're doing a stat squish for the next xpac. Along with a level squish so I don't think they care how crazy it gets during bfa.

There's been nothing official that says they are doing either yet. The only thing we have is a screenshot of a survey that may or may not be accurate.

[Lora]

Then why squish them?

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No. It's not natural. They are the ones who determine what stats are on the gear. If it was natural then we would have seen the same rise in stats before. Stats didn't go from 30 to 1500 in TBC, or Wrath, or any other expansion.

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Not what I have said at all. I want numbers to be big. I want them to stay big. But they grow to a point where they become too big for the system to handle, so they have to squish them. So why squish them only to blow them up in the same expansion again? At least go slow so you don't have to squish them every expansion.

So stop pretending that I have said things that I haven't or leave.

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I really don't get what you are talking about. This wasn't a problem for the first ten years of WoW.

big numbers = more to process. thats about it really. doesnt look pretty.

[jakeic]

big numbers = more to process. thats about it really. doesnt look pretty.

that isn't it.

Large numbers are inherently harder (or even impossible) to intuitively understand for humans. For instance, hitting a mob that has 10 health for 1 damage every swing or increasing your strength from 25 to 29 are easy to understand examples using smaller numbers, where as hitting a mob with 123,456,789 health for 12,351,789 damage every swing or increasing your strength from 12789 to 14963 are much more difficult to understand and serve to make what is actually happening less transparent.

[Lucetia]

Say the cap of the game is 60.... then the latest expansion is levels 60-70.

Then next exp, everyone above 60 is bumped back down to 60, and levels to 70 in the newest expansion's content.

This is the dumbest idea ever and a good way to get people to not come back.

[Milfshaked]

how is that different thatn what happens now? people are literally still running uldir cuse who knows why. literally just check the lfg tool

I never said that it was. I simply pointed out false information.

[Kalisandra]

You still gain power while leveling. The base line though is changed. Where you started off at the ending of the previous expansion when you reference the 60-80 leveling we now start off at an independent baseline. It is just perception. We still gain power it just starts off at a different spot depending on squishes and other factors. Its not like it was all that constant anyways since Blizzard was constantly adjusting what percent you got per points or adding/removing stat affects.

No, you actually lost power as you levelled from 110 to 120 if you had Legion endgame gear. That's why you hear of L110-112 players killing L119-(fresh)120 players in PvP - despite the latter having a ton more health they did tons less damage. The only reason it didn't seem to apply in PvE (like if you went to the other faction's islands and went off the beaten path at low levels you'd meet L120 mobs that would own you) was that NPCs did massively more damage as levels went up to balance the massive health inflation. However, the time to kill a mob as a fresh L120 was about double what it took as a L110-111, which was truly awful if you were playing one of the specs that Blizz completely ruined (e.g. elemental).

[Stickiler]

No, you actually lost power as you levelled from 110 to 120 if you had Legion endgame gear..

The bolded section is the important bit, and has been a constant in every WoW expansion thus far(Since atleast WotLK -> Cata, which is when I got serious about WoW). Endgame gear always transcends the normal range for gear at a given level, which is why you have those situations where you do lose power as you level up, because you started at an abnormally high power level in the first place. This isn't an issue if you're levelling through though, which is where you see a consistent growth in your power level, because you don't have that boosted power level to upset the power scale.