The Lich King uses Necromancy magic and Sylvannas used pure death - Discussion

[Jalham]

What left me wondering after the last 8.2.5 story campaign is how both Jaina and others were confused about what kind of magic did sylvannas use, Many assumed its void magic because Arthas and others used Death magic before right ? Well actually no.

First Jaina has seen Void magic before being used by Alleria and void elfs and many others fought minions of the Old gods before so they do know what void magic looks/feels like.

Second people say but Arthas and his minions used Death magic so why wont they notice it now then ? I honestly think Arthas / Lich king and his minions used pure Necromancy magic and variety of it.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Magic#/med...icle_Magic.jpg <---

I think this is the first time in wow a character his used pure "Death Magic" the power that's higher level than necromancy. Which would tie in with her death god she keeps talking about.

What do you guys think about this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some interesting discussions have been brought about Ner'zul , Death Knights and Arcane Magic.

That's an interesting discussion specially the Ner'zul (Original Lich king), he was a strong shaman in life meaning he had a strong connection to the power "spirit" in which he could control and use the other elements right ? So what happens to that power when he gets turned into a spirit/undead ? Would the spirit power turn into Decay power ? the opposite of Spirit element ? which is the simpler power of necromancy in the chronicle powers chart.

Death Knights and necromancers need connection to the Shadowlands, that's how they bring souls back for their reincarnations/necromantic summons, it doesn't mean they control that realm or are the masters of it.

Similar to how druids and green dragons and powerful animals and even the "Nightmare" have connection to the Emerald dream but their powers are different and they use the dream for different reasons.

Arcane magic has been used for necromancy because of its unique abilities, when a frost mage casts frost bolt...is that frost bolt actually water ? or is it arcane that turned into water/ice ? same with fire or any other type of ability a mage uses, Arcane users have the ability with practice to turn their magic into any kind of power and that includes Necromancy like Kel'Thuzad. That's why Arcane magic is listed as the power of Titans, they use it to reshape and create worlds and creatures from nothing.

[Aucald]

I think there's probably some traction in that, myself. It's worth noting that we seldom see the true "poles" of the main cosmological forces of the Warcraft universe in action - even what we term the "Light" is more often radiant Holy energies, whereas the actual destructive force the Naaru can channel might actually be the truest form of Light energy we see. Holy energies tend to bolster, heal, and cure disease - but Light energies can do a lot more than that. Similar too we have the Void which is actually a "child" of the primordial essence of Shadow - meaning that Void energy is not the end-all or be-all of the negative plane of energies. Death may exist beyond the Necromantic energies of Liches, Necromancers, and even the Lich King we've been accustomed to - a force we've not yet seen on Azeroth so much, but probably related to the extreme power that Argus was able to wield in our encounter with him at the Seat of the Pantheon.

Sylvanas may have found a way to tap into this force more directly than just Necromancy.

[Super Dickmann]

There's a case to be made that necromancy is 'impure' by default as it's Death taken out of its natural realm of the Shadowlands. In that sense, sending souls to the Shadowlands or being bound to them without them being in the physical realm is more direct death magic. Ergo why Helya and Bwon are more legit 'Death' entities than Arthas, but apparently not Sylv as of 8.2.5.

[Triceron]

I think it's just Blizzard writing shenanigans again, much like 'Demons don't really die, they get reborn'. I have a feeling it's a plot twist brain fart thrown at us to fulfill their power fantasy for Sylvanas.

[Life-Binder]

yeah, probably higher level pure Death Magic

hence the insta-kill .. its Death after all

why Helya and Bwon are more legit 'Death' entities than Arthas,

true
Lich King is kinda a "fake" death entity (or undeath .. makes sense since he was made artifically) .. same as Yogg(?)


only beings from the Shadowlands/connected to it, that deal with pure souls, are "legit" death entities

and I assume they all serve the Death God(dess) one way or another .. now Sylvanas may have joined their little group (and it doesnt matter if Bwon doesnt like it .. he doesnt decide)

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I think it's just Blizzard writing shenanigans again, much like 'Demons don't really die, they get reborn'. I have a feeling it's a plot twist brain fart thrown at us to fulfill their power fantasy for Sylvanas.

yeah, its this.

- - - Updated - - -

yeah, probably higher level pure Death Magic

hence the insta-kill .. its Death after all




true
Lich King is kinda a "fake" death entity (or undeath .. makes sense since he was made artifically) .. same as Yogg(?)


only beings from the Shadowlands/connected to it, that deal with pure souls, are "legit" death entities

and I assume they all serve the Death God(dess) one way or another .. now Sylvanas may have joined their little group (and it doesnt matter if Bwon doesnt like it .. he doesnt decide)

The Lich King and Yogg Saron are fake death entities, and Sylvanas is a real one? Jesus Christ

[Aucald]

I think it's just Blizzard writing shenanigans again, much like 'Demons don't really die, they get reborn'. I have a feeling it's a plot twist brain fart thrown at us to fulfill their power fantasy for Sylvanas.

Demons reincarnating in the Nether is pretty old lore - all the way back to TBC, really. That's not really what I'd term "writing shenanigans."

[Unholyground]

Necromancy is the act of re-animating the dead, many magic types can accomplish this.

[Life-Binder]

yeah, its this.

- - - Updated - - -


The Lich King and Yogg Saron are fake death entities, and Sylvanas is a real one? Jesus Christ

not a full "entity" (yet), but if she gets direct Death magic from the Death God and ferries souls to him/her ..

and dont say Christs name in vain

- - - Updated - - -

LK is basically like a Super Necromancer/Lich (hence the name .. Lich King)


its a far cry from Shadowland stuff

[EbaumsTipster]

The Lich King and Yogg Saron are fake death entities, and Sylvanas is a real one? Jesus Christ

In what reality are either the Lich King are Yogg champions of DEATH? All they did was resurrect people.

[Aucald]

In what reality are either the Lich King are Yogg champions of DEATH? All they did was resurrect people.

The Lich King was said to "rule over the spirit world" during WotLK, from both Shaman and Priests who could explore or interact with that realm to some degree. His agents tormented Koltira Deathweaver through said world. Not only could the Lich King resurrect people (into undeath), he had fine control over the transit and dispensation of souls in his domain. Yogg-Saron's connection to death is a bit more nebulous - he does indeed call himself the "God of Death" but his abilities extend more into corruption and madness. He may be speaking a bit more literal, as he seems to have had a hand in engineering specific deaths that had a profound effect on the living races of Azeroth - not so much the same kind of death as the Lich King or Bwonsamdi, but more the God of Death in terms of fate or predestiny. The god of "specific death," you might say.

[Triceron]

Demons reincarnating in the Nether is pretty old lore - all the way back to TBC, really. That's not really what I'd term "writing shenanigans."

It was writing shenanigans - all the way back to TBC. It retroactively trivialized the whole ending to WC3:RoC.

[Steelcryo]

The Lich King is a necromancer, he causes a lot of death, but that's only so he can raise them up again. I've never seen him as a "death" entity, despite a lot of his art work be skulls n stuff. If anything, he is in direct competition with death, stealing away souls and raising people who should be dead.

Same with Yogg, he didn't just kill, he raised the dead.

I feel a real servant of death or death entity would just kill for the sake of it, those two both had additional plans after they killed. Sylvannas was like that, but I feel like now she just wants death for the sake of death. So yeah, I think that's exactly what her new power is, the power of death. Not additional tricks, just flat out killing to serve her master.

[Briselody]

The Lich King was said to "rule over the spirit world" during WotLK, from both Shaman and Priests who could explore or interact with that realm to some degree.

That's from some unreliable sources though. Nobody (currently) alive knows the truth about what's in the Shadowlands, except possibly Odyn. What the LK was able to rule over could have been a sub-section of the Shadowlands, or just touching into the edges of it. The "Border Ethereal" by D&D lore standards which are frequently borrowed by... well, everyone. The LK's power is ultimately alien and demonic and not really native to Azeroth or its death domains, whatever they may be. He had a lot of power, sure, but only in the framework of what we knew at the time. There could be much deeper waters.

[Life-Binder]

Death is supposed to be a domain on par with the likes of Arcane, Fel and Life at the least

[Garymorilix]

This doesn't make sense.

We know a powerful Death entity who is stronger than Sylvanas and gains power from the same source as your claim: Bwonsamdi.

And Jaina was front and present at the battle of Dazar'alor, which oozed death magic all around the place (poor Grong).

So given this, Jaina should absolutely detect 'pure' Death magic, as that is what Bwonsamdi is: the loa of death. He even serves some yet unknown Death über god, collecting souls for them, we can assume the same entity that Sylvanas collects souls for.

So no, it all doesn't make sense: either Jaina and Thalyssra can't detect magic for shit, or it wasn't any known source of magic.

[Life-Binder]

when did Jaina personally witness Bwonsamdi use pure Death Magic ?

[Aucald]

That's from some unreliable sources though. Nobody (currently) alive knows the truth about what's in the Shadowlands, except possibly Odyn. What the LK was able to rule over could have been a sub-section of the Shadowlands, or just touching into the edges of it. The "Border Ethereal" by D&D lore standards which are frequently borrowed by... well, everyone. The LK's power is ultimately alien and demonic and not really native to Azeroth or its death domains, whatever they may be. He had a lot of power, sure, but only in the framework of what we knew at the time. There could be much deeper waters.

The nature of the Shadowlands is indeed nebulous, but the Lich King's growing control of it isn't so much - it's confirmed in "Chronicle Vol. 3" as well as the "Rise of the Lich King" novel. He's certainly wasn't a "natural" part of it in the same way that Bwonsamdi is, or other psychopomps that exist in Warcraft's mythology, as he's more akin to a parasitic infection of it (engineered by Kil'jaeden and the Legion). I won't argue that there aren't deeper waters, as it were, as I think the Shadowlands echoes the Emerald Dream in that there are definitely layers of it proceeding deeper into the realms of Death (as in the cosmological chart for the Warcraft universe the Shadowlands and the Emerald Dream share a direct and dualistic connection to reality itself).

- - - Updated - - -

It was writing shenanigans - all the way back to TBC. It retroactively trivialized the whole ending to WC3:RoC.

It did? How so? Defeat is defeat whether or not the entity defeated is permanently killed - the defenders of Azeroth still won the day, which is why WC3: RoC doesn't retroactively trivialize the War of the Ancients itself.

[Garymorilix]

when did Jaina personally witness Bwonsamdi use pure Death Magic ?

She was already at the top of the pyramid raining blizzard while the alliance killed Rastakhan. That means the alliance has already gone past a re-animated Grong and the many undead soldiers all around the place.

And especially the fight with Rastakhan.

[EbaumsTipster]

She was already at the top of the pyramid raining blizzard while the alliance killed Rastakhan. That means the alliance has already gone past a re-animated Grong and the many undead soldiers all around the place.

And especially the fight with Rastakhan.

That's resurrection magic, for the most part.

The Rastakhan fight was more like what's being discussed here (especially his powerup form) but Jaina wasn't there to see it? Maybe?