Personal Loot Feedback - Three Raids Later

[Reaper0329]

While I totally get what you're saying, I am saying it's only frustrating because you're trying to imagine how it could be more optimal through the use of another loot distribution mechanism.

But if you look at the bigger picture, the game is designed so that you gear at a certain rate. Ergo, in the final analysis, what might seem like an un-optimal gearing, is actually just par for the course.

What makes it feel frustrating is that you get to see a piece of loot drop which you can't use. What if the game was smart enough to only ever give you loot where it was practically usable, and in instances where the piece you would have won a piece of "bound useless loot" you simply get nothing instead, thus creating the illusion that your looting is more optimal? It might feel better to some people, sure, but the reality is that in the end it's all much of a muchness.

Which is why my approach is just to brush it off. Shit will happen. "Bound useless loot" will drop. Treat it the same as "AP will drop".

PS: Looking at the big picture, no loot is genuinely "bound useless". You should always hang on to your highest ilevel loot to raise the cap at which you can trade (eg if you get the same piece next week, then you will be able to trade it).

Valid points. I just preferred the system wherein the option to trade that item was...well, an option.

I'm kinda stuck looking at the whole thing from where I sit (we're a Mythic progression guild; by no means a top 100, but no slouches). In the years I've been raiding with them, I've seen exactly two loot decisions that I didn't agree with, and both of them involved me and were motivated more by "I really wanted that" as opposed anything else. Beyond that, our loot council always handled things just fine.

That being the case and looking at the WoD model, wherein 80% of the group must be guilded to do master loot, my real issue with the system is philosophical. It seems to me that people who would want personal loot, back before BfA when it was a contentious issue, already had the option to use it. If they were in a guild that is actively screwing them over on gear, they had the option to leave the guild, and it seems patently absurd to me that someone would sit there and take it; not much different than leaving one's hand on the stove. The option was there. I resent the fact that Blizzard decided that we, as players, lacked enough agency to take our hand off the stove. I feel like it was nothing more than removing an option.

Gearing via PL hasn't been, in terms of efficiency, a total bust. As I said, our guild all but ignores it three weeks in, when we go back to a form of master loot/loot council anyway (barring our odd propensity to warforge items our looter already has that someone else desperately needs or the ring issues, as my own anecdotes). And to be clear, I don't look at everyone not in an organized guild as shitters with invalid opinions. But I don't like the paternalistic approach Blizzard took with looting (among other things this expac), and I think it's stupid as can be that the solution for people opting not to seek out the loot system best suited for their needs was to nuke the loot system.

[Clozer]

PL sucks. The last two times I've killed heroic Ashzara with my guild I got a 425 font with a socket (didn't have the trinkets to trade it so it's for my offspec) and when I finally did have 445 trinkets to trade one, I got a 450 font and couldn't trade it. What a great system.

Also the amount of people being in crappy guilds still amazes me.

and how often per 8 month progress cycle does that happen? twice? Or once? With about 50 items you got in those 8 months? Now imagine with master loot the boss would drop every week the same cloth wrists instead of the nice trinket. You would end up 1000 times worse. Stop this fake problems, that occur so rarely that it doesnt matter at all.

[Dioporco]

As a mythic raider I love it.
Honestly they should even restrict trading loot.

Mythic Raider that loves PL?


I call it bullshit for 500$ Alex

[Coldfrostzero]

The problem is it is not of your own volition as far as the system knows. It's "trade X to Y or gkick" implicitly.

One of the bigger problem with loot councils is if you look at who the item is the biggest upgrade for, you're usually rewarding the worst and laziest people in the raid.

The best adjustment to the loot system would be to make sockets count as ilvl. So a 430 socketed = 460 because the socket counts as 30 ilvls. Then if you get a 445 you can trade it.

Right, there is no "right" way to say it's of "my volition" unless it were to not say who got an item and they could talk individually with the person who needs it. You can also choose to leave a guild that forces you to give out loot you wanted.

If you're only looking at "who needs the biggest upgrade" then maybe. I've fallen behind in Mythic raiding before when I would run M+ dungeons and either never get the drop I needed or got the base item level. Titanforging is a disaster in this, and almost every regard.

Okay, but if I get a 445 socketed item I don't want because, let's use Feral as an example, crit is so important and the item doesn't contain crit at all and I have a 440 without a socket, then I still can't trade it because the item is considered 475.

There is no real happy medium other than choosing what guild you want to raid with. Blizzard's intentions are "pure" until you look at how Titanforging has made loot ridiculous. You can get so unlucky and have the same item drop at the same item level and have an alt run normal and it procs up to max item level or as good as the one your main is getting. Which I had semi happen in Legion with Legendaries when my alt got the BIS and my main got Sephuz when it was the worst legendary you could get.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Uses formal logical fallacies as arguments.

Calls other people stupid.

The guy claims master loot is full of ninja looting, his own words. If it was FULL it means there's no space for any other kind of looting. That means every single time I was in a masterloot raid I would have been ninja'd.

I simply proved that his statement is objectively wrong, if you disagree with that feel free to put on the stupid hat with him.

[Kuruption]

and how often per 8 month progress cycle does that happen? twice? Or once? With about 50 items you got in those 8 months? Now imagine with master loot the boss would drop every week the same cloth wrists instead of the nice trinket. You would end up 1000 times worse. Stop this fake problems, that occur so rarely that it doesnt matter at all.

Fake problems....now I've heard everything.

[Dioporco]

and how often per 8 month progress cycle does that happen? twice? Or once? With about 50 items you got in those 8 months? Now imagine with master loot the boss would drop every week the same cloth wrists instead of the nice trinket. You would end up 1000 times worse. Stop this fake problems, that occur so rarely that it doesnt matter at all.

Meanwhile with PL my guild that cleared 8/8 myth saw 1 behemoth trinket in 3 months of EP.

Nice system

[CrawlFromThePit]

The feature didn't work perfectly fine though. That's why they removed it. Sure, it worked perfectly fine for some people. But not for everyone.



Any evidence of this?

Aside from the fact that I have it from a reliable source that loot disputes have historically been, by far, the biggest single source of GM tickets - and thus according to Blizzard's metrics, the single biggest source of player unhappiness in the game, your assertion just doesn't make any sense.

I mean, why on earth would Blizzard remove ML if they didn't have data telling them it's an actual problem? What do Blizzard stand to gain by forcing everyone to use PL if all it is accomplishing is pissing off a bunch of high end raiders?



PL and ML co-existed for many years. Yet in spite of people, theoretically, having a choice between the two, groups using ML were still a major source of loot disputes. Which was bad for player satisfaction, and consequently bad for business.

I would say that at the core of the issue is the fact that in spite of there being an apparent "choice", the reality is that there was none. The "choice" is never made democratically. It was made by a small minority, with the majority being coerced into using it because the alternative was to not get into groups. Also, because ML was more effective at being able to optimally distribute loot (regardless of fairness) competitive guilds were pretty much forced to use it. Which was fine for some guilds, but easily abused by others.

You first need to make the difference between a feature issue and a community/player issue.

All the issues you mention come from players being cancerous. The feature does its job: someone has control of distributing loot, that's the feature, nothing more, nothing less. If people use it wrong then it's THEIR FAULT. Not the feature's fault. But players enjoy blaming everything but their own shortcomings, and won't admit they are the worst thing in the game. And Blizzard being all PR and PC won't tell players they're the problem, so Blizzard takes on the responsibility to defend the players against themselves by removing features that work perfectly fine.

[Clozer]

Meanwhile with PL my guild that cleared 8/8 myth saw 1 behemoth trinket in 3 months of EP.

Nice system

Lets assume you have 7 people who can loot the fish-trinket. Your chance for loot on the fish boss is about 20% and 3 items could drop from the fish boss, but never the same item twice. Not adding any bonus loot rolls. You should get 0.42 trinkets each week, if you add the rule of not getting the same item twice the chance becomes higher every week. I assume you didnt bonus roll and were extremly unlucky.

[Dioporco]

If ML is such a problem why Classic is nearly played as, or more :tinfoil: than Live atm? People should avoid something based upon ML no?


Seems not so maybe this ML drama was just a once in a Blue Moon issue.

If you don't wanna ML don't join Raid/Group/Guild that use it.

[Sfoda]

As a Gm and Rl I lost tons of people bc the "less good ones" always looted things that they can trade but they wanted every piece of gear bc they don't really know how to optimize. Then I had to establish kind of loot council where all tradeable items are rolled.
I had very skilled people who wasted almost 3 months carrying bosses just because they needed one specific trinket but they left bc there was no way of getting it, bad luck, worst rng.


As a raider, I didn't left bc I had luck with coins and loot, but I saw a lot of Friends leaving the game. Also, if you don't play with friends, there is always a group of friends that only trades loot between them.
I just left my second raid bc we have huge troubles to kill Ashvane and 5 people who don't play to win or just don't even have 65 neck. Is sad.

Please return Master loot, please.

I dont think this is a personal loot issue. More like an leadership issue. Mythic raiders do mythic things and those who cant are not mythic raiders.

[Kralljin]

The truth is they got rid of ML because of progression, they wanted to slow down progression significantly and everyone knows that ML helped a lot with that.

That is an utterly false assumption.
Overall, PL is the "better" loot system if you're looking to gear your raid as a whole (ignoring any split raids shenanigans).

Why? Because Loot is optimized towards your group.

No Hunter there? No Ranged Weapon.Ever.
Lots of rogues? Lots of Rogue loot.

M+ highlights this perfectly, you can even get geared so much faster because you can funnel items into a single person rather than just running the same instance over and over until specific items drop.

[Clozer]

If ML is such a problem why Classic is nearly played as, or more :tinfoil: than Live atm? People should avoid something based upon ML no?


Seems not so maybe this ML drama was just a once in a Blue Moon issue.

If you don't wanna ML don't join Raid/Group/Guild that use it.

What? Samsungs galaxy sX is the most selled smartphone - so nothing about can be bad(yet every year a better version comes out???).
Sick argument.

[Rendark]

Here is the thing: if most groups weren't like that then it doesnt matter át áll cuz they shouldnt have used it in the first place.
If everyone is so nice and fair then player can trade between themselves and there is no need for ML.
But they weren't so nice so it got removed.

Oh mah gawd the surprise: you abuse shit it gets changed.

No one i know ever abused it so removing master loot only punished good people.

[grexly75]

Where is the problem? Bosses drop loot thats not useful for anyone in the raid since forever. This is how things go?

Exactly, when ML was a thing, my guild would often have issues of items dropping that nobody wanted, because it was garbage and they either had better, or they already had it.. And it would end up getting disenchanted and as such a waste..

And we have gotten used to the PL system and will often exchange items that are trade able with each other if someone needs it..

[Clozer]

No one i know ever abused it so removing master loot only punished good people.

No removing master loot was a reward for anyone who's not in a world 20 guild and runs 5 split runs.

[evertonbelmontt]

That is an utterly false assumption.
Overall, Pl is the "better" loot system if you're looking to gear your raid as a whole (ignoring any split raids shenanigans).

I don't remember well, but I think in Legion it worked like personal works for loot table.
It would never drop an item you don't have someone who could use it.

And even if didn't work like that, it's waaaay to easy to code it. Master loot in it's core is giving control of the loot to someone to decide what to do with it, not change the loot table.

[Dioporco]

What? Samsungs galaxy sX is the most selled smartphone - so nothing about can be bad(yet every year a better version comes out???).
Sick argument.

We changed the previous model with this one newer but still when we proposed the previous model people still bought it.


Mhhh

[Clozer]

I don't remember well, but I think in Legion it worked like personal works for loot table.
It would never drop an item you don't have someone who could use it.

And even if didn't work like that, it's waaaay to easy to code it. Master loot in it's core is giving control of the loot to someone to decide what to do with it, not change the loot table.

How often does that happen that an item drops thats not an upgrade for you that you can not trade? Once each raid tier aka 8 months? No issue at all.

[Dioporco]

Lets assume you have 7 people who can loot the fish-trinket. Your chance for loot on the fish boss is about 20% and 3 items could drop from the fish boss, but never the same item twice. Not adding any bonus loot rolls. You should get 0.42 trinkets each week, if you add the rule of not getting the same item twice the chance becomes higher every week. I assume you didnt bonus roll and were extremly unlucky.

If you are sayin that a boss cannot drop multiple of the same item, you are wrong.

Also you are assuming that every item have the same chance to drop, which isn't proven and Blizzard already got caught years ago with Diablo 3 and their """"wonky""" % rate for the legendaries.

Also I have the suspect that pets are considered item in the loot table and not extra items, just a feeling tho