I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Whoopax]

Say no to tbc servers, classic+ is way to go

[Xalvia]

So the whole "flying destroys world pvp" has turned to shit as wpvp is dead anyway with bgs.

Classic + will never happen.

[Beuargh]

[FONT=Arial Black]

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that

bullshit. I'm a vanilla veteran and we experienced it all over again in classic, world pvp disappeared the day BG were live. and as you probably already know, there is no flying in classic. so in tbc, flying destroyed something that was already dead and buried.....

[lollerlaban]

If TBC did actually hurt the game, how come the subscriber count was always going upward back then? Wouldn't their have been dips if things such as flying or arena were actually that ruinous to the game?

No, because people were still discovering the game. We're talking about a game from over 12 years ago where gaming was not as mainstream as it now amongst casual gamers, even now it still takes over a year for super popular games to plateau in popularity (Fortnite Season 3)

[Outofmana]

As a raider I couldn't care less about PVP being weak or boring. TBC was perfect in that regard, there were always much better "PVP" alternatives in other games.

[Whoopax]

As a raider I couldn't care less about PVP being weak or boring. TBC was perfect in that regard, there were always much better "PVP" alternatives in other games.

U are minority

[alturic]

U are minority

Wait, seriously? You think Vanilla and TBC were anything but framed around raiding? WoW has always been a raiding game design front and center.

[cparle87]

Wait, seriously? You think Vanilla and TBC were anything but framed around raiding? WoW has always been a raiding game design front and center.

Considering the lion's share of specs weren't even viable for raiding the idea that you think it was is ludicrous.

[Super Kami Dende]

TBC is ruined because of IoQ era welfare. The End.

Kewl your class plays better, in all that trivialized & obsolete content cuz you got t6 equiv from badges lel

Yeah, those 3-4 whole slots out of 17 were totally all the Gear someone required

- - - Updated - - -

Considering the lion's share of specs weren't even viable for raiding the idea that you think it was is ludicrous.

It was though. It didn't matter that some Specs were useless for raiding since every class had at LEAST 1 spec that was viable for Raiding. WoW has always been a PvE game first and foremost, with raiding being the centre stage article.

[dacoolist]

TBC is superior to Vanilla in every way.

I have to fully agree with this.. TBC was WAAAAAY better than Classic

On Topic: Still decent points of interest from OP, the big push for tons of PVE content realllllllly showed the WoW community what the game was capable of, and I think TBC was a stellar xpac even if the PVP was a bit rough

[Kallor]

I loved TBC at the time, but I wouldn't for the life of me want to replay it. Classic + all the way!

[Niwes]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

imo what we really need is classic with class mechanics of TBC. maybe as classic+. imo slow/simple/unfinished class mechanics and unbalanced specs is the only downside of classic. rest is fine.

[cparle87]

Yeah, those 3-4 whole slots out of 17 were totally all the Gear someone required

- - - Updated - - -



It was though. It didn't matter that some Specs were useless for raiding since every class had at LEAST 1 spec that was viable for Raiding. WoW has always been a PvE game first and foremost, with raiding being the centre stage article.

Even if that viability was stand there and constantly rebuffing people or sit out of combat not hitting anything so you can rez someone?

[schwank05]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

I love flying and think the game is better because of it. I loved PVP in TBC the BG's were amazing and I loved the PVP map that was released along with TBC I have always hated AV because it took way too long. I have enjoyed AB and TBC map cannot remember name point control maps are the best. Arena was a blast I had a great time in 2's. I loved my 1 button BM Maco for everything Hunters were perfect in TBC, I also loved everything there was about Resto Druids and miss TBC/ Wrath Resto so much.

[Nihilist74]

Instead of having separate servers, they should make it so that whatever expansion you are leveling in makes all the character and other settings the same as that expansion. You can twink and play that expansion as long as you want.

[McNeil]

It would be more interesting to see an approach similiar like they did with Runescape. Continue Classic without new expansions, instead they'd do major patches that they have been doing with AQ and Naxx where they release a huge raid with a world event attached to it. They could open up unfinished and closed zones like Hyjal and Emerald Dream as new zones and/or raid. The raids would stick to the Classic formula of being more about organisation and preperations rather than an overbundance of boss mechanics.

Its an interesting concept bt also risky, and knowing Blizzard they would do the safe approach which is releasing TBC.

[Mehrunes]

Considering the lion's share of specs weren't even viable for raiding the idea that you think it was is ludicrous.

The lion's share of specs weren't even viable for PvP either. So what's your point here? Spec design was overall garbage in Vanilla, that doesn't magically lead to any conclusions about PvP's place in design. And the thing about that place is that there is no period in WoW's history than Vanilla that made it more obvious that PvP has been an afterthought. There wasn't even any dedicated PvP content for months after the release.

Even if that viability was stand there and constantly rebuffing people or sit out of combat not hitting anything so you can rez someone?

As opposed to half the Classes having the "viability" of being fodder for highly geared Warriors and Rogues.

[dokilar]

strongly disagree. as someone who was in a mainly pvp guild we had a ton of fun in TBC. on our server hellfire, Nagrand and terrokar always had battles going on. arena was somewhat detrimental to our guild as we focused primarily on group pvp but honestly it didn't impact us that bad as a group. it was a great thing to fall back on if we had a few people miss out on group pvp nights and vice versa.

I really hope we see stand alone expansion servers down the line because to me tbc was really the high point for me

[Whoopax]

The lion's share of specs weren't even viable for PvP either. So what's your point here? Spec design was overall garbage in Vanilla, that doesn't magically lead to any conclusions about PvP's place in design. And the thing about that place is that there is no period in WoW's history than Vanilla that made it more obvious that PvP has been an afterthought. There wasn't even any dedicated PvP content for months after the release.




As opposed to half the Classes having the "viability" of being fodder for highly geared Warriors and Rogues.

Dont comment if u are bad at the game all specs are viable in pvp, you can play feral and make it work go play enh if u like its decent etc etc

While in tbc u had to play certain specs like frost mage, but in classic pom pyro can work, elemental spec is very good and so on

[Frozenbro]

OP so delusional thinking classic+ will happen, at the beggining it was cute, now its borderline pitiful.