Inherent Problems Vanilla Loot Systems Have To Deal With

[garicasha]

As we get closer to launch I wanted to write some guidance to retail players that shows them some of the problems with loot that were unique to vanilla.

TL;DR
In retail there's generally a single correct answer for who will get the biggest upgrade because there's
--No class that's 50% more powerful than other classes
--No wasted itemization because HoTs and DoTs can't crit
--No plate / mail wearers have leather / cloth items as their best-in-slot
--No one is ever lagging a tier behind because there's way more loot. Also Bad RNG is mitigated by bonus rolls and four levels of difficulty
--No resistance fights
--No spirit / MP5 / different gear sets for single-target or AoE (at least not as bad as in vanilla)
--No racial bonus changes loot distribution
--No talents are hugely different for swords/maces/axes
--No gaps in itemization, where a raid tier simply doesn't have a pair of plate boots or whatever at the ilvl of that raid

Also in classic people want loot more because it helps farming and PvP.

OP:
The actual systems people used are here, and I hope to update this thread in the next few months.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ems-In-Classic

This thread is more about the problems directly as opposed to the various ways people dealt with them.

The biggest point I want to make is that vanilla loot distribution brings up a lot of situations where two conflicting viewpoints can both be perfectable reasonable and completely logical. The other point I want to make is that if you're leading or joining a guild, you should ask how the guild chooses between all these equally-rational options.

Many of these problems are handled very, very differently depending on how hardcore or cohesive the guild is.

The Armor Class (aka "Who Can Roll") Problem:
How does the loot system account for cloth caster items and leather melee items as upgrades for mail and plate classes?

The Armor Slot (aka Hoarding) Problem:
How does the loot system deal with the fact that bracers and belts are worth far less than other slots?
(One of the biggest problems with the Suicide Kings system)

The Scarcity Problem:
How does the loot system encourage attendance with fewer items dropping?
(Much more of a problem for casual guilds where people may not attend if they know it's gonna be a month before they're eligible to win anything.
The scarcity of loot relative to retail also causes differences in loot distribution for people that know they're going to be out, for example people with newborns on the way or armed forces deployments.)

The Progression / Farm Problem:
How does the loot system reward progression nights over farm nights?
(More a problem in vanilla where players can't just go get the Heroic / Normal / LFR version of that must-have trinket.)

The Incentivization Problem:
Does the loot system reward bringing consumables to raid?

The PUG Problem:
If it's not a full guild run, what incentives do PUGs have to come? If an item drops and Guildy A has it, Guildy B needs it, and PUG C needs it, does Guildy A get to roll and give it to guildy B if he wins?

The Main Tank Problem:
How does the loot system deal with the fact that in vanilla, there was both a strong incentive to give the main tank the best gear available but also an incentive to give warrior DPS the gear as well. At what point does a big upgrade to an off-tank offset a small upgrade to a main tank?

(Main tanks took much more damage because 40-man raids had 12-15 healers whereas modern 20-man raids have 4-6. However, if the main tank receives every slight upgrade there's a chance the off-tanks and DPS warriors will lose out on big upgrades. Also, recruiting warriors can be problematic if they know they're always last-in-line for loot.)

The Tryhard / Slacker Problem:
How does the loot system deal with the fact that, especially in early tiers, there are powerful BoE items available? For example, Mace of +3 smiting drops. Player A farmed gold for months to buy the BoE Mace of +2 smiting. Player B didn't farm at all and has Questing Mace of +1 smiting. Who gets the item?

The Tier Bonus Problem:
How does the loot system deal with the fact that some classes' tier bonuses are overpowered?
(Priest Tier 2 comes to mind.)
(In hardcore guilds people care quite a bit about their performance and will want to be the first to receive those bonuses. In more casual guilds, players of a class may stop showing up if they know someone else is getting all the tier items.)

The Class Balance Problem
How does the loot system deal with the fact that certain classes do much more damage than others? Especially in the late game, Rogues, Fury Warriors, and Mages dominate DPS. This creates issues where giving a small upgrade to an OP class might result in more damage than giving a large upgrade to an underpowered class. This is just one other area where "giving the loot to where it matters most" is much more objective in retail than vanilla / classic.

(I've actually got a subscription to warcraftmovies and looked through hours of video at meters. The only exception I've found is one fight where a warlock topped Grobbulus, a very ranged-friendly fight. I've yet to see a feral, shadow, or ret paladin anywhere in the top 10.)

The Multiple Gear Set / Resistance Set Problem:
If I recall correctly, Spirit was better for healers in fights with downtime that allowed the 5-second rule to start, and MP5 was better for fights with constant casting. I think there were also a few classes where gear for AoE damage was different than single-target damage. Also, every single tier of raiding in vanilla had several resistance-based fights. This also caused situations where if, for example, a tank piece dropped with lots of fire resistance, it might be great for an off-tank all of the time but it'd also be very useful on the main tank for one or two specific fights.

The Racial Bonus and Weapon Type Problem:
Sword of +1 Slicing drops. Rogue A is human and has a bonus to swords, Rogue B is not. How does the loot system handle that?
(Although this will probably be much less of a problem in classic now that DPS can be simmed so easily.)

The Bad RNG Problem:
In vanilla with the large raid sizes, relative scarcity of items, and lack of tokens, it's very common for a few raid members to have one item slot they just can't get the drop for.

As an example, imagine a mage that just can't get a caster necklace to drop after farming Molten Core for months. Then, in BWL, a caster necklace with spirit drops that is a huge upgrade for the mage but a small upgrade for all the healers. How does the loot system handle this?

The Wonky Itemization Problem:
The equivalence of items, especially jewelry with spirit or MP5, can be very hard to judge. Is a neck with 15 spirit a bigger upgrade for a shaman with a 9 spirit necklace or a priest with a 7 MP5 necklace? Or what about that mage from the Bad RNG problem that is still wearing a blue necklace with vastly lower intellect?

Because the value of those stats depends on the length of the fight, the other gear the person is wearing, and the other tier bonuses acquired, there's no single correct answer.

Crit was also a problematic stat in vanilla as DoTs and HoTs couldn't crit which made the stat much more useful for holy paladins, melee classes, and mages at the expense of resto druids and warlocks.

The BoE / Legendary / PvP item Problem:
How does the loot system deal with BoEs and other novelty items?
(The biggest difference from retail is that many powerful PvP items dropped in PvE raids, as opposed to cosmetic mounts.)

The Alt Problem
One of the few things that's probably more problematic in retail, where a boss like Mythic Kil'Jaeden is significantly easier with two guardian druids, a blood death knight, a holy paladin, resto shaman, disc priest, resto druid, warlock, and as many rogues and preferably mages as you have after that. It might be an issue on 4 Horsemen where 6-8 tanks are helpful, but generally alts weren't as needed in vanilla.

And then there's two "Modifiers" that can affect every single other problem above.

The 1H/2H Problem
--Does winning a 1-hander like Azuresong Dramablade give a person priority on off-hands such as the Fire Runed Grimoire?
https://classicdb.ch/?item=17103 Azuresong
https://classicdb.ch/?item=19142 Fire Runed Grimoire

--As above, does winning an off-hand like Fire Runed Grimoire prevent you from rolling on a 2H such as Staff of Dominance?
https://classicdb.ch/?item=18842


The Multi-Part Item Problem
--If an item is part of a quest do you only give it to people that already have the item, such as Eye of Divinity / Eye of Shadow and Ancient Petrified Leaf / Mature Black Dragon Sinew?


The Upcoming Boss Modifier:
A modifier that pretty much affects every other problem above. If the loot system is set up to spread the wealth evenly, but on the guild's first Chromaggus kill an item drops that would give a priest their mana-return tier bonus for the upcoming 10+ minute Nefarian fight, is the guild going to change the loot system?

If a guild's loot system is to always give their main tank the best available, but the next progression fight requires five tanks and 2 of them are sorely undergeared, is the guild gonna change the loot system for that?

The Pain In The Butt Modifier:
How complicated is the system? How much time does it take to administer? How much arguing does it cause? How long does the raid have to stop to assign loot?


Modern systems benefit from a game design that there is generally a "correct" answer as to who will benefit most from an item. And there's less at stake because if the Mythic version hasn't dropped, chances are the Heroic / Normal / LFR version of an item has. Classic loot systems are a set of arbitrary decisions from two equally-deserving choices.

For example, modern loot systems decide which of two oranges is larger. Classic loot systems decide if your guild likes apples or oranges.

Since "perfect" is not possible, good loot systems in classic should strive for "consistently reasonable without deterring attendance or recruitment."

[Heathy]

well in classic anyone can roll on anything, there was nothing stopping cloth users rolling on plate and nothing to stop hunters rolling on every type of weapon. apart from master looter.

when you start raiding loot will be handled in 1 of two ways.

dkp

or

loot council

you show up, you earn dkp, you can bid on loot. you don't show up, you don't get dkp, you get no loot.

loot council on the other hand I think can also be used in tandem with dkp, where the council steps in and gives priority to say, tanks on certain items and will funnel gear to the tank over dps. that way the loot goes where its best utilized and makes the most benefit to the whole raid.


I don't think you'll see massive changes on itemization because it wouldn't be classic then. gear had stats that weren't super useful to everyone. thats just how it was. in terms of gearing and deciding what bits of loot are better than others, you use what you get, if you get into a position where you have to choose between mp5 or spirit. well if they are both carrying the same stat weight its not a choice. use whatever and replace it when you get something better.

some of these talking points are difficult to answer because they don't make a lot of sense, like this one.

The Progression / Farm Problem:
How does the loot system reward progression nights over farm nights?

it rewards progression because when you kill new bosses you get new loots that you couldn't get prior, this seems like a no brainer.

[schwank05]

I think something a lot of people forgot is how forgiving the bosses were most of the time you would raid with less than 40 people because you didn't have enough online to raid. Also there was no armor specialization bonus, so of coarse if you are a druid healer you are going to be rolling mostly on cloth since healing leather was very rare.

[Whiskra]

Am I understanding you correctly in that you think the "loot system" itself should force "fairness"? If that is so, I think you're completely misunderstanding the point of players deciding amongst themselves what's most fair.

[Trend]

Nothing has changed. If you play with greedy jerks you're going to be frustrated about loot. If you're playing with a reasonably decent community you should not have issues as long as there is good communication about what the process is from the very beginning. Never had loot drama in my raids in vanilla a single time because people knew what they were signing up for and what the expectations were. I also never cheated anyone.

[garicasha]

Having a decent community is always going to help, but it was my experience that people in vanilla were much less generous because the drops were so much more rare, they helped farming so much more, and it was much less clear what was for whom.

I'd also say a Loot Council in vanilla / classic was about 3-4x more likely to generate loot drama than a similar guild doing it in retail. There's just so many more problems and the scarcity just amps tensions in a way that four difficult modes never will.

My response to Whiskra is that the system in vanilla/classic has many more choices and caveats to getting 40+ people to agree on how to do things. I'm basically trying to set up a template for what guilds should discuss when they're setting up their loot system.

[Heathy]

it depends really I started raiding when zg came out and well as a priest i got the fang of venoxis on like my first run. I got the book of the dead from a lucky drop on the last boss in scarlet side strath. so I actually passed the eye of divinity at least 4-5 times because I had epic weapons and other priests were using blue staffs.

the hand of ragnaros went to the person who could make the epic mace, so whoever had the reputation or whatever it was to make the mace got the eye of sulfuras and the ingots first. for us i think it was a dps warrior who got it first.

loot was pretty limited per week, but i guess it didn't matter so much back then there was nothing to compare it to. so long as you work out whats going to happen with the legendaries and everyone is on the same page, i think the loot will naturally distribute itself fairly. we didn't have loot drama but we were casuals, then again we never saw a binding drop either. I ended up with shit tons of dkp i ended up bidding something stupid like 500 dkp on the first pair of t2 legging as they didn't drop for about 30 runs. when they did i was like haha all in! considering i think we only got 15 dkp per raid. 500 wasn't exactly nothing, that was like months and months of saving.

I dunno if there would be much drama over regular epic gear because you'll have many chances to get it. the legendaries though, it'll take a lot of clears to make 1 mace so. who gets it first might be a bit of contention. same with thunderfury but if that doesn't go to your main tank then you deserve drama.

when zg exists, and aq20, they reset every 3 days, so you could run them twice a week. at that point gearing upto like t1/2 wouldn't be that difficult. or take that long.

handling dkp at the start isn't a problem, you can roll on loot for your first raid and just put those who win into minus dkp, which they'll earn back on their second raid. so those who win the first loots, won't have as much dkp on the second raid, as those who didn't win anything during the first run. so those guys who got nothing on the first raid, will have a better chance at winning a piece of gear over those who did. and it should balance itself like that, ppl will dkp dump on the items they REALLY want, but they'll have to go without loots until they have enough dkp again to win a bid over someone else.

getting 40 ppl to agree on things is easy, the dkp system works pretty well at distributing loot around a raid. it doesn't really allow ppl to win lots of loot unless they are the last person who needs it. ppl will decide among classes who should get what, having some dkp wars is nice you wanna drain each others dkp a bit and force each other to pay a certain amount for items, but you can decide in class discussions who needs what the most and work something out between your class mates. gee wizz i just remembered that class leaders used to be a thing.

[garicasha]

Actually with ZG available from the get-go it is going to make loot WAY more available.

[Heathy]

I think they are holding it off from what i saw on the release schedule.

I think its mc/ony/bwl then some time later zg, then after that aq event, then after that naxx.

perhaps its changed, I personally think it should exist at the start but I know other ppl don't agree, it didn't come out until 1.6 which was over a year after it launched. I know it was made to help guilds grow into 40 mans, having that to run did make a massive difference in recruiting at the time. if you had 20 ppl getting another 20 was made easier due in part to zg. once it came out i do think raiding in general was kicked up a notch.

[Armourboy]

I think they are holding it off from what i saw on the release schedule.

I think its mc/ony/bwl then some time later zg, then after that aq event, then after that naxx.

perhaps its changed, I personally think it should exist at the start but I know other ppl don't agree, it didn't come out until 1.6 which was over a year after it launched. I know it was made to help guilds grow into 40 mans, having that to run did make a massive difference in recruiting at the time. if you had 20 ppl getting another 20 was made easier due in part to zg. once it came out i do think raiding in general was kicked up a notch.

It will start with Ony/MC/DM/world bosses.

Second phase will be BWL and ZG.

[Heathy]

It will start with Ony/MC/DM/world bosses.

Second phase will be BWL and ZG.

thats cool i suppose it makes sense to do it that way, does that mean t2 will drop in molten core though, that'll be weird, i didn't raid molten core while it still dropped t2, i'm not sure many ppl did. bwl did come out before zg, quite a bit sooner iirc. and they took most of the t2 out of mc and ofc, put it in bwl. having dire maul in there would be cool, but it'll be strange to have ony, and raggy, but no bwl so either t2 drops in molten core for a while, or you'll only be able to get max 2/8 t2 until bwl releases.

[Armourboy]

thats cool i suppose it makes sense to do it that way, does that mean t2 will drop in molten core though, that'll be weird, i didn't raid molten core while it still dropped t2, i'm not sure many ppl did. bwl did come out before zg, quite a bit sooner iirc. and they took most of the t2 out of mc and ofc, put it in bwl. having dire maul in there would be cool, but it'll be strange to have ony, and raggy, but no bwl so either t2 drops in molten core for a while, or you'll only be able to get max 2/8 t2 until bwl releases.

Dunno the only tier 2 that dropped in MC I saw was from Rag, everything else was Tier 1. If I remember correctly he didn't drop that originally though.

[Heathy]

before bwl existed t2 dropped in molten core. each boss had a chance at dropping t1 and t2 pieces they did leave t2 legs on raggy and ony drops the head but everything else was moved into bwl.

you can see the old loot lists on archived sites on the wbm. it confused me at first because I used the sites to check loot drops and it was like 'oh cool the bosses have a chance to drop t2' no actually it was all moved to bwl. when i started raiding molten core all the loot lists showed that each boss had like a 5-10% chance to drop t2. but by that point bwl existed.

here is an example, it might take a minute to load because its archived. but you can see that geddon drop t2 tranq belt at one point in time. other bosses were the same. even if you skip forward to like 2006 the loot remained on the lists. albeit the chance got stupidly low because i'm pretty sure bwl was out by then.

[Aradur]

DKP -> All Problems solved.

[Millyraynge]

Don't rely on specific items in classic. Don't rely on getting best-in-slot in any slot. This is what people must learn back in classic. If your guild has a fair loot distribution it's quite impossible to get best in slot in any slot, except naxxramas and all the other raids are farmed way over their lifespan.

Don't forget that the loot system in vanilla worked quite differently. In vanilla it could easily happen that several bosses dropped the same 2-3 items for weeks or months. Even worse than that was the circumstance that bosses dropped paladin/shaman stuff also on the opposite faction.

[Armourboy]

Don't rely on specific items in classic. Don't rely on getting best-in-slot in any slot. This is what people must learn back in classic. If your guild has a fair loot distribution it's quite impossible to get best in slot in any slot, except naxxramas and all the other raids are farmed way over their lifespan.

Don't forget that the loot system in vanilla worked quite differently. In vanilla it could easily happen that several bosses dropped the same 2-3 items for weeks or months. Even worse than that was the circumstance that bosses dropped paladin/shaman stuff also on the opposite faction.

Are you talking about offset pieces? Because the tier for shaman/Paladin dropping for the opposite faction only happened in the TBC pre-patch.

[kamuimac]

As we get closer to launch I wanted to write some guidance to retail players that shows them some of the problems with loot that were unique to vanilla.

The actual systems people used are here, and I hope to update this thread in the next few months.
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ems-In-Classic

This thread is more about the problems directly as opposed to the various ways people dealt with them.

The biggest point I want to make is that vanilla loot distribution brings up a lot of situations where two conflicting viewpoints can both be perfectable reasonable and completely logical. The other point I want to make is that if you're leading or joining a guild, you should ask how the guild chooses between all these equally-rational options.

Many of these problems are handled very, very differently depending on how hardcore or cohesive the guild is.

The Armor Class (aka "Who Can Roll") Problem:
How does the loot system account for cloth caster items and leather melee items as upgrades for mail and plate classes?

The Armor Slot (aka Hoarding) Problem:
How does the loot system deal with the fact that bracers and belts are worth far less than other slots?
(One of the biggest problems with the Suicide Kings system)

The Scarcity Problem:
How does the loot system encourage attendance with fewer items dropping?
(Much more of a problem for casual guilds where people may not attend if they know it's gonna be a month before they're eligible to win anything.
The scarcity of loot relative to retail also causes differences in loot distribution for people that know they're going to be out, for example people with newborns on the way or armed forces deployments.)

The Progression / Farm Problem:
How does the loot system reward progression nights over farm nights?
(More a problem in vanilla where players can't just go get the Heroic / Normal / LFR version of that must-have trinket.)

The Incentivization Problem:
Does the loot system reward bringing consumables to raid?

The PUG Problem:
If it's not a full guild run, what incentives do PUGs have to come? If an item drops and Guildy A has it, Guildy B needs it, and PUG C needs it, does Guildy A get to roll and give it to guildy B if he wins?

The Main Tank Problem:
How does the loot system deal with the fact that in vanilla, there was both a strong incentive to give the main tank the best gear available but also an incentive to give warrior DPS the gear as well. At what point does a big upgrade to an off-tank offset a small upgrade to a main tank?

(Main tanks took much more damage because 40-man raids had 12-15 healers whereas modern 20-man raids have 4-6. However, if the main tank receives every slight upgrade there's a chance the off-tanks and DPS warriors will lose out on big upgrades. Also, recruiting warriors can be problematic if they know they're always last-in-line for loot.)

The Tryhard / Slacker Problem:
How does the loot system deal with the fact that, especially in early tiers, there are powerful BoE items available? For example, Mace of +3 smiting drops. Player A farmed gold for months to buy the BoE Mace of +2 smiting. Player B didn't farm at all and has Questing Mace of +1 smiting. Who gets the item?

The Tier Bonus Problem:
How does the loot system deal with the fact that some classes' tier bonuses are overpowered?
(Priest Tier 2 comes to mind.)
(In hardcore guilds people care quite a bit about their performance and will want to be the first to receive those bonuses. In more casual guilds, players of a class may stop showing up if they know someone else is getting all the tier items.)


The Racial Bonus and Weapon Type Problem:
Sword of +1 Slicing drops. Rogue A is human and has a bonus to swords, Rogue B is not. How does the loot system handle that?
(Although this will probably be much less of a problem in classic now that DPS can be simmed so easily.)


The Bad RNG Problem:
In vanilla with the large raid sizes, relative scarcity of items, and lack of tokens, it's very common for a few raid members to have one item slot they just can't get the drop for.

As an example, imagine a mage that just can't get a caster necklace to drop after farming Molten Core for months. Then, in BWL, a caster necklace with spirit drops that is a huge upgrade for the mage but a small upgrade for all the healers. How does the loot system handle this?

The Wonky Itemization Problem:
The equivalence of items, especially jewelry with spirit or MP5, can be very hard to judge. Is a neck with 15 spirit a bigger upgrade for a shaman with a 9 spirit necklace or a priest with a 7 MP5 necklace? Or what about that mage from the Bad RNG problem that is still wearing a blue necklace with vastly lower intellect?

Because the value of those stats depends on the length of the fight, the other gear the person is wearing, and the other tier bonuses acquired, there's no single correct answer.

The BoE / Legendary / PvP item Problem:
How does the loot system deal with BoEs and other novelty items?
(The biggest difference from retail is that many powerful PvP items dropped in PvE raids, as opposed to cosmetic mounts.)

The Alt Problem
One of the few things that's probably more problematic in retail, where a boss like Mythic Kil'Jaeden is significantly easier with two guardian druids, a blood death knight, a holy paladin, resto shaman, disc priest, resto druid, warlock, and as many rogues and preferably mages as you have after that. It might be an issue on 4 Horsemen where 6-8 tanks are helpful, but generally alts weren't as needed in vanilla.

And then there's two "Modifiers" that can affect every single other problem above.

The Upcoming Boss Modifier:
A modifier that pretty much affects every other problem above. If the loot system is set up to spread the wealth evenly, but on the guild's first Chromaggus kill an item drops that would give a priest their mana-return tier bonus for the upcoming 10+ minute Nefarian fight, is the guild going to change the loot system?

If a guild's loot system is to always give their main tank the best available, but the next progression fight requires five tanks and 2 of them are sorely undergeared, is the guild gonna change the loot system for that?

The Pain In The Butt Modifier:
How complicated is the system? How much time does it take to administer? How much arguing does it cause? How long does the raid have to stop to assign loot?


Modern systems benefit from a game design that there is generally a "correct" answer as to who will benefit most from an item. And there's less at stake because if the Mythic version hasn't dropped, chances are the Heroic / Normal / LFR version of an item has. Classic loot systems are a set of arbitrary decisions from two equally-deserving choices.

For example, modern loot systems decide which of two oranges is larger. Classic loot systems decide if your guild likes apples or oranges.

Since "perfect" is not possible, good loot systems in classic should strive for "consistently reasonable without deterring attendance or recruitment."

the answer to all those is very simple.

all guilds will use loot councils and gear up buddies before rest .

so if you are not one of "inner circle" good luck getting anything at all .

[Roxyfoxy]

the answer to all those is very simple.

all guilds will use loot councils and gear up buddies before rest .

so if you are not one of "inner circle" good luck getting anything at all .

And those guilds implode before they get to any boss that matters.

Proper guilds who use loot council, give out loot that benefit the raid the most. That often means giving the best in slot loot to players who perform high and has close to 100% raid attendance. Lesser skilled players and those who show up for raids now and then have no real use for the very best items, they can get by just fine with regular gear.

I prefere a EPGP system myself, favors high attendance players, and running a guild in vanilla is all about having people show up for raids.

[garicasha]

Added the Class Balance Problem, the Resistance / Multiple Gear Set Problem, added HoTs and DoTs not critting to the wonky itemization problem, and wrote a short summary of why in vanilla and classic there's very rarely a single correct answer to who will get the biggest upgrade from an item.

[Craaazyyy]

many things that you called problems actually arent problems