What rewards does raiding need to make it more appealing?

[Blackmist]

I'd like to see rewards that give you neat effects that only work where you go them. So raiders aren't forced into M+, M+ers aren't forced into raids, and PvPers can just PvP.

Similar ilvls and stats all round (and stats are boring as fuck anyway), just better bonus effects.

[Ange]

So with no class sets or tier bonuses coming in Shadowlands initially what rewards do you think blizzard should add to raiding to make it more appealing for both casual and hardcore players? Or do you think raiding rewards are fine as is?

With the changes to mythic+ in 8.3 I guess you should just fear blizzards reaction if you are a high-end raider with demands.

GET RID OF TF/WF TO KEEP THE RAIDING ILVL ADVANTAGE!
=> mythic+ 8.3 awards now up to a garanteed max-ilvl gear in the weekly chest, no more hoping for TF/WF its now 100%

GET RID OF SPAM CONTENT FOR LOOTTRADING, WHILE WE KEEP SPLITRUNS(LESSER DIFFICULTY)!
=> mythic+ 8.3 awards ABOVE heroic raid loot at the end of dungeon chest, killing splitruns alltogether

Pretty clear statement from blizzard, that they not only want the alternative gearing path to stay viable compared to high-end raiding, but for every outcry they even take something away from high-end raiding.

The anti TF/WF propaganda from mythic raiders for the wrong reasons (LETS BUILD A GEARWALL, AGAIN) got pretty much what they deserved. I hope those players actually like raiding, because nothing else matters now in 8.3.

[kaminaris]

It still means more than your lack of proof.

If 30,000 guilds killed a boss, that's at least 300,000 people presuming every single guild is 10 people large.

Meanwhile, if 20,000 guilds killed a boss, that's at least 200,000 people presuming every single guild is 10 people large.

One of these numbers is lower than the other, and suggests that one subset of people is smaller than the other subset of people. It's really that simple.

Meanwhile, you have absolutely no data to suggest that the population size differs. Thus, we can draw no conclusions based on population size, and only on the number of people actively raiding.

Less raiding guilds = Less raiding players. Full stop.

I am absolutely astonished how people don't understand a basic math and statistics. No it's not that simple.

If you don't understand it, let me show you some example.

You held some event in 2 cities: A and B
City A has population 30 000 people
City B has population 60 000 people

in city A, 3000 people came in for your event = 10% participation rate = event was fairly popular
in city B, 4000 people came in for your event = 6.6% participation rate = event was fairly popular BUT LESS THAN city A

And we know that overall wow population is declining, we know Legion had at least 6M players at start (some sources even mention 10M), we know BfA had more than 3.7M players. Sure this is a guesswork but nevertheless if it is even close to what we predicted, participation in raids is higher. Period.

[Khrux]

Raids already have Titles, Mounts, Cosmetics and items you can't get from other content sources. That's your incentive to raid, outside of you know having fun and playing with a group of friends/like-minded individuals.

Why does it need more?

[gallamann]

Personally I believe organized raiding is in a death spiral. Over half the raiding population is all about ME.

So every new raid you have 10+ folks show back up wanting to raid. These are the same people that bail for <insert reason> whenever you have more than 3 pulls on a boss. The same people who disappear until next raid releases after 1 or 2 kills of the end boss. These people also play FotM classes/specs and constantly push to sit other raiders not "pulling their weight".

These folks are destroying guilds every new raid tier.

Please don't take this wrong, I respect their right to play how they see fit. Just pointing out why raiding is in a death spiral.

If Blizzard truly wants to drive up raiding numbers. They need to reduce mechanics drastically - realize that over half the player base is out after 3-5 pulls

M+ is fun, easier to organize and avoids the players who are here a month and gone for 3.

[Black Goat]

It needs less rewards. 1 item per boss in 10-mans, 2 items per boss in 25-mans. Perhaps a small chance to roll an additional item. Oh, and tier sets. Yeah those need to come back.

[dcc626]

No, m+, is more fun and more difficult at the highest keys. I don't want to be forced to do shitty raids just so I can push my keys.

- - - Updated - - -



As some one who prefers running m+ and couldn't care less about raiding. I'm fine with that and m+ and the m+ crowed shouldn't be forced to make sacrifices to pander to raiders and raiding guilds.

and raiders dont ant to be "forced" to do m+ either. m+ is going to continue to give more gear, but raiding is going to give better gear. both sides can argue the point, but the changes this week speak for themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

With the changes to mythic+ in 8.3 I guess you should just fear blizzards reaction if you are a high-end raider with demands.

GET RID OF TF/WF TO KEEP THE RAIDING ILVL ADVANTAGE!
=> mythic+ 8.3 awards now up to a garanteed max-ilvl gear in the weekly chest, no more hoping for TF/WF its now 100%

GET RID OF SPAM CONTENT FOR LOOTTRADING, WHILE WE KEEP SPLITRUNS(LESSER DIFFICULTY)!
=> mythic+ 8.3 awards ABOVE heroic raid loot at the end of dungeon chest, killing splitruns alltogether

Pretty clear statement from blizzard, that they not only want the alternative gearing path to stay viable compared to high-end raiding, but for every outcry they even take something away from high-end raiding.

The anti TF/WF propaganda from mythic raiders for the wrong reasons (LETS BUILD A GEARWALL, AGAIN) got pretty much what they deserved. I hope those players actually like raiding, because nothing else matters now in 8.3.

and then making the last 2 bosses drop 10 ilvl higher gear throws the m+ crowd into a frothing mess. /shrug

[kaminaris]

And, as we already established:

You don't know the current population size. Thus, we can draw no conclusions based on overall population size then vs. now, as we are missing one of the metrics: The current population size.

So, without that, we have only one metric: Raiding population then vs. now. Which, the current size is smaller.

Which is completely useless and doesn't tell us anything.

And this is to say nothing on the actual metric that matters to players:

How many players you have to pull from. Which, no matter how big the total population is, the only metric which matters is the subset of those players which are raiding, and the exact number - No, not the percentage, because percentage of total population doesn't apply here. If there's 10 people raiding and all 10 are currently raiding, 100% of the raiding population is raiding, and if that is 10 players out of 1000 players, that means 10% of the total population is raiding - Which means nothing to 5 new raiders who want to raid but need 5 more people to do so, and therefore are not raiders because they can't raid without a group of 10.

So you actually don't know the basic math and statistics, got it. Percentage is what matters. Not the raw numbers which are completely irrelevant.

Your example is completely pointless because for us, raiders, it doesn't matter if there are 40 000 raiders or 30 000 raiders. It is still big enough number to make some sensible progress. Now if that 30 000 is 10% of whole wow population then it means raiding got more popular compared to 40 000 population which was only 7%.

It means previously raiding was less accessible.

If you have 40,000 players to pull from, or you have 100,000 players to pull from, it doesn't matter what percentage of overall population that is. You have less players with 40,000 than 100,000. This is what matters, because a bigger pool of players means more diverse skill, ideally putting more at the top end - And even when it doesn't, it provides a larger pool of raiding groups for people who are not at the top end.

Percentage of players doesn't necessarily add or subtract from availability of raiding groups, but total population currently raiding does in increments of 10-30 depending on which mode you're looking at.

It doesn't matter if we had 40 000 or 30 000 raiders or people to pull from. Absolutely. Since the numbers will keep going down and down regardless of what blizzard will do. During my couple of raiding years, a lot new people came in, lot old people left. It's that simple. You try to exaggerate by pulling some big ass numbers but that's completely irrelevant since you cant go more than 30 heroic an 20 mythic.

For game sake, and it's longevity most important is participation percentages, not raw numbers which doesn't mean shit.

[Kataroku]

I'd like to see bonus roll tokens guarantee an item.

My first two runs of EP netted me NO LOOT. As a PuG raider, no high ilvl + no AOTC achievement = no group invite for the next 3 months.

Also, how many times should a player be expected to run a raid before they have a complete set? 5 times? 10 times? That's two months' worth of sub right there trying to complete a set that won't drop.

[Elias01]

Please provide your figures because there are no sub numbers for BfA or Legion.

Your making statements without any basis what so ever.
I provided numbers, time for you to do the same.

- - - Updated - - -

The people who do LFR but not even Normal raids will not go do Normal if you remove LFR. They will simply not play.

False and Classic proves you completly wrong. I also doont raid above LFR becouse of LFR. If LFR woulf not be in game and i would be forcced to do normal or heroic i would do it. But as long as there will be lfr as path of least resistance i wont bother.

[huth]

False and Classic proves you completly wrong. I also doont raid above LFR becouse of LFR. If LFR woulf not be in game and i would be forcced to do normal or heroic i would do it. But as long as there will be lfr as path of least resistance i wont bother.

"I don't think that way, therefore nobody does" is not exactly a compelling argument.

[Elias01]

"I don't think that way, therefore nobody does" is not exactly a compelling argument.

Same can be said for his argument. From past and Classic launch we can see healthy raiding community without nees of LFR.

[Kaesebrezen]

Same can be said for his argument. From past and Classic launch we can see healthy raiding community without nees of LFR.

Classic MC isn't much more then LFR in terms of difficulty and duration - not much to base any argument around that.

[huth]

Same can be said for his argument. From past and Classic launch we can see healthy raiding community without nees of LFR.

It does not at all prove that LFR-only raiders would raid above LFR, though.

[Gorsameth]

False and Classic proves you completly wrong. I also doont raid above LFR becouse of LFR. If LFR woulf not be in game and i would be forcced to do normal or heroic i would do it. But as long as there will be lfr as path of least resistance i wont bother.

So I'm sure you can provide numbers to show that Classic has a bigger % of people raiding then Retail does?
Or that the % was higher in Vanilla then it is in Retail?

Because LFR was introduced to ensure more people saw the raid to justify the resources spend on it.

[ryanmahaffe]

Bring back valor points to buy raid gear as bad luck protection, make sure that raiding gives the most even above M+
make it so raid gear only can be upgraded upwards of 4 times like in MoP


...
Make MoP

[munkeyinorbit]

Not really, it is true, I used to wear 2+4 set in legion because 2set from nighthold was still better than anything in ToS. 6 slots of gear locked for entire tier.

- - - Updated - - -



Exactly right on spot. And it's not wrong because in the end, its JUST A GAME.

- - - Updated - - -



Now compare that to total amount of players. I'm pretty sure we had half of players at start of BfA compared to start of Legion.
Which means participaction is higher by good percent.

You being sure of something is not evidence. The numbers prove participation is down. People's anecdotal experience say numbers are down. Your head canon has been proven wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Remove LFR so people actually participate in the raid.

They can enjoy normal raiding and later on go for further into hc and mythic if they want.

This has been proven in many examples to be false. Take lfr away and people who do lfr will just not raid at all.

Lfr as a legitimate source of gear has not been true since pandaria. There have been items tacked onto lfr to get people to do them such as legendaries or quests but for lfr, the gear is obsolete before it's fully released. Removal of lfr has no use except to boost elitists egos who think anyone who does lfr is somehow lesser than they.

[Osmeric]

You have zero proof of that, and the wow-progress numbers are lower or equal between the two expansions.

EP numbers are shockingly low.

- - - Updated - - -

Now compare that to total amount of players. I'm pretty sure we had half of players at start of BfA compared to start of Legion.
Which means participaction is higher by good percent.

"Raids didn't keep people playing" is not a good argument for the success of raids.

[Inci]

Oh boy, I'll get a lot of hate from this...

Make the raids with 1 difficulty, that is not easier than current heroic and also not on par with current mythic.

[munkeyinorbit]

Please, if you have no basic math skills don't speak about this topic. Number of raid boss kills is relative to overall wow population.

Numbers you have provided means jack shit. BECAUSE, if population would diminish by half, comparing start of legion and start of bfa, we would see drastic INCREASE in raid participation based on your numbers.

If your going to talk about basic math then you should get it right. You are talking about participation rate not participation. I feel your embarrassment at getting something so simple wrong . And you have no proof what you are trying to say is correct or not. You are just using feelings and I learnt that feelings do t belong in math.

The population in BFA is the same as it is at the same time in Legion. Using that statement, the participation rate is lower. I don't need a source because like you, I'm sure my numbers are correct.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh boy, I'll get a lot of hate from this...

Make the raids with 1 difficulty, that is not easier than current heroic and also not on par with current mythic.

I would say that's what classic is for then I remembered you don't even need to be max level to clear content there.