Do you ever think Blizzard's locked themselves into a development hell?

[jzhbee]

So, I was thinking about it, and there's a decent amount of systems in the game that aren't particularly amiable to having new features added. Specifically, I'm referring to:

• New Classes
• New Specs
• Reworked Specs

What I mean by this is that due to class halls in Legion, new classes cannot level up through Legion content, at least, not without the rework of some of that expansion's features. Some argue that they can make a "neutral" class hall for all new classes if they want to play through Legion content. But even then, to keep in line with the other classes, they would need to make new Artifact weapons, even if they don't need traits. And, some might argue that they can just put in generic weapons instead. If that's the case, they would need to develop new weapons and replace currently existing quest rewards (probably the more useless Artifact relics). To do so would consume some amount of development time, but may eventually work. The same argument exists for any reworks of classes, like the requested return to ranged Survival, or at least fourth spec Ranged survival. Or, as Blizzard originally said at the end of WoD, if Gladiator Stance were to return as a spec. They too would need to be developed for in the class specific environment that Legion produced.

Similarly, Azerite traits have this same problem. Blizzard said in a few Shadowlands previews that they don't intend to "depower" the HoA like they did the Artifact, but that it just gets weaker into Shadowlands. That means that all new classes have to have new Azerite traits designed for them, similarly with any new specs or redesigned specs.

Blizzard, during BlizzCon, said that Shadowlands likely won't have any major spec overhauls, citing that they didn't want players to log in and realize that they had an entirely new spec to learn. Considering how poorly received BFA class design was, I'm relatively surprised by this. Even in the Legion pre-patch I recognized that the classes would only work due to the Artifact traits, and that without the Legion Artifact, the classes felt bad. A lot of people thought of Shadowlands as the "In case of emergency; break glass!" Expansion, something that would overhaul class design as BFA seemed to fail somehow worse than WoD did. And I know some people are concerned about Blizzard's ambivalence to the class design, giving old abilities back but not addressing the design failures that makes people not want to play Survival, Enhancement, and some other specs.

Do you think Blizzard has locked themselves into a situation where they can't address the class design without major overhauls to existing systems?

[arkanon]

Do you think Blizzard has locked themselves into a situation where they can't address the class design without major overhauls to existing systems?

No, not at all.

[Kaibhan]

So, I was thinking about it, and there's a decent amount of systems in the game that aren't particularly amiable to having new features added. Specifically, I'm referring to:

• New Classes
• New Specs
• Reworked Specs

What I mean by this is that due to class halls in Legion, new classes cannot level up through Legion content, at least, not without the rework of some of that expansion's features. Some argue that they can make a "neutral" class hall for all new classes if they want to play through Legion content. But even then, to keep in line with the other classes, they would need to make new Artifact weapons, even if they don't need traits. And, some might argue that they can just put in generic weapons instead. If that's the case, they would need to develop new weapons and replace currently existing quest rewards (probably the more useless Artifact relics). To do so would consume some amount of development time, but may eventually work. The same argument exists for any reworks of classes, like the requested return to ranged Survival, or at least fourth spec Ranged survival. Or, as Blizzard originally said at the end of WoD, if Gladiator Stance were to return as a spec. They too would need to be developed for in the class specific environment that Legion produced.

Similarly, Azerite traits have this same problem. Blizzard said in a few Shadowlands previews that they don't intend to "depower" the HoA like they did the Artifact, but that it just gets weaker into Shadowlands. That means that all new classes have to have new Azerite traits designed for them, similarly with any new specs or redesigned specs.

Blizzard, during BlizzCon, said that Shadowlands likely won't have any major spec overhauls, citing that they didn't want players to log in and realize that they had an entirely new spec to learn. Considering how poorly received BFA class design was, I'm relatively surprised by this. Even in the Legion pre-patch I recognized that the classes would only work due to the Artifact traits, and that without the Legion Artifact, the classes felt bad. A lot of people thought of Shadowlands as the "In case of emergency; break glass!" Expansion, something that would overhaul class design as BFA seemed to fail somehow worse than WoD did. And I know some people are concerned about Blizzard's ambivalence to the class design, giving old abilities back but not addressing the design failures that makes people not want to play Survival, Enhancement, and some other specs.

Do you think Blizzard has locked themselves into a situation where they can't address the class design without major overhauls to existing systems?

No. Leveling through legion now doesn't require an artifact weapon. Classes may have felt bad with out but it's irrelevant now. The HoA will serve similarly to legendaries where you will eventually out gear it's benefits, but will still be usable for timewalking. So useful but not a huge deal. Considering leveling is supposed to be faster, and all except for brand new players will be able to pick which expac they are going to level in, I don't think this is nearly as big of a deal as you think it is. A new class or build can be given boring generic HoA traits, because it really doesn't matter.

[Garymorilix]

So, I was thinking about it, and there's a decent amount of systems in the game that aren't particularly amiable to having new features added. Specifically, I'm referring to:

• New Classes
• New Specs
• Reworked Specs

What I mean by this is that due to class halls in Legion, new classes cannot level up through Legion content, at least, not without the rework of some of that expansion's features. Some argue that they can make a "neutral" class hall for all new classes if they want to play through Legion content. But even then, to keep in line with the other classes, they would need to make new Artifact weapons, even if they don't need traits. And, some might argue that they can just put in generic weapons instead. If that's the case, they would need to develop new weapons and replace currently existing quest rewards (probably the more useless Artifact relics). To do so would consume some amount of development time, but may eventually work. The same argument exists for any reworks of classes, like the requested return to ranged Survival, or at least fourth spec Ranged survival. Or, as Blizzard originally said at the end of WoD, if Gladiator Stance were to return as a spec. They too would need to be developed for in the class specific environment that Legion produced.

Similarly, Azerite traits have this same problem. Blizzard said in a few Shadowlands previews that they don't intend to "depower" the HoA like they did the Artifact, but that it just gets weaker into Shadowlands. That means that all new classes have to have new Azerite traits designed for them, similarly with any new specs or redesigned specs.

Blizzard, during BlizzCon, said that Shadowlands likely won't have any major spec overhauls, citing that they didn't want players to log in and realize that they had an entirely new spec to learn. Considering how poorly received BFA class design was, I'm relatively surprised by this. Even in the Legion pre-patch I recognized that the classes would only work due to the Artifact traits, and that without the Legion Artifact, the classes felt bad. A lot of people thought of Shadowlands as the "In case of emergency; break glass!" Expansion, something that would overhaul class design as BFA seemed to fail somehow worse than WoD did. And I know some people are concerned about Blizzard's ambivalence to the class design, giving old abilities back but not addressing the design failures that makes people not want to play Survival, Enhancement, and some other specs.

Do you think Blizzard has locked themselves into a situation where they can't address the class design without major overhauls to existing systems?

Why would any new class need a new class hall? Legion is not current content. Give them a weapon in their intro quest that scales with level and an NPC that starts zone questlines and boom, problem solved.

Same with traits. Why would we need new ones? Worst case you can use the neutral traits. It doesn't matter. It's not current content.

Did blizzard retro-actively make new shit for dk's monks or dh's? No they didn't.
Why is this an issue again?

[jzhbee]

No. Leveling through legion now doesn't require an artifact weapon. Classes may have felt bad with out but it's irrelevant now. The HoA will serve similarly to legendaries where you will eventually out gear it's benefits, but will still be usable for timewalking. So useful but not a huge deal. Considering leveling is supposed to be faster, and all except for brand new players will be able to pick which expac they are going to level in, I don't think this is nearly as big of a deal as you think it is. A new class or build can be given boring generic HoA traits, because it really doesn't matter.

I don't know if I agree that the classes without Artifact Traits feeling bad is irrelevant now. Next expansion we're ditching the Azerite traits (which already felt worse than Legendary traits), and we'll go back to traitless classes. Which is the thing a lot of people think feels bad. One new ability from the Covenants won't fill all the issues with class design, and there's no way at the moment to know how Soulbinds will go.

edit: grammar

[RobertoCarlos]

Did they add in tier sets for dk/monk/dh for all the raids prior to their entry? No.

Why would you assume a new class would also get a artifact hall

[jzhbee]

Why would any new class need a new class hall? Legion is not current content. Give them a weapon in their intro quest that scales with level and an NPC that starts zone questlines and boom, problem solved.

Same with traits. Why would we need new ones? Worst case you can use the neutral traits. It doesn't matter. It's not current content.

Did blizzard retro-actively make new shit for dk's monks or dh's? No they didn't.
Why is this an issue again?

There's a difference between Raid specific tier sets not being included for new classes, and central expansion features not being available to new classes. All tier set bonuses are legacy and turned off anyway. Class halls direct the questing experience in Legion. The expansion is built without weapons being obtainable as the intent was not to receive weapons except the Artifact. Azerite traits will still be active once Shadowlands comes out, just will be reduced in power, likely similar to Legion Legendaries after level 115. These are features that are central to the expansion they originate from, that the new classes will not be able to experience (provided they ever add new classes)

[jzhbee]

I actually don't think it will. I haven't made any new sub-110 alts, so I can't say for certain, but can you still get empowered artifacts on new alts? I thought any new artifact weapon would start out in its disabled state just like ours are now.

Even when I go back into timewalking, my artifact weapon is still burned out. It doesn't reactivate.

I'm expecting the same thing to happen with the HoA at the end of this expansion. I figure something will happen to completely burn out our HoA, making it just a stat-piece with no special effects anymore. Any azerite armor would just be trash to vendor.

That's just my expectation.

You do start with a non-powered Artifact playing through Legion now, where you can still socket relics but they only give ilvl increase. But Blizzard said during Blizzcon they didn't intend to do the same with HoA, saying that it would still be function in timewalking, etc.

[Garymorilix]

There's a difference between Raid specific tier sets not being included for new classes, and central expansion features not being available to new classes. All tier set bonuses are legacy and turned off anyway. Class halls direct the questing experience in Legion. The expansion is built without weapons being obtainable as the intent was not to receive weapons except the Artifact. Azerite traits will still be active once Shadowlands comes out, just will be reduced in power, likely similar to Legion Legendaries after level 115. These are features that are central to the expansion they originate from, that the new classes will not be able to experience (provided they ever add new classes)

Did you even read what I wrote?

[Greyvax]

I think they've started running out of ideas. this is made evident by:

1. Bringing characters back from the dead in shadowlands
2. The dragging on of Sylvanas' story arc

[Great Destiny Man]

What I mean by this is that due to class halls in Legion, new classes cannot level up through Legion content, at least, not without the rework of some of that expansion's features. Some argue that they can make a "neutral" class hall for all new classes if they want to play through Legion content. But even then, to keep in line with the other classes, they would need to make new Artifact weapons, even if they don't need traits.

Need is a strong word. As of next expansion no-one is required to go through Legion at all during the levelling process. If they wanted new classes to have some kind of integration with Legion then realistically all they need is to add a neutral board in Dalaran to choose a zone for questing. Alternatively they could restrict new classes from levelling through Legion but that feels a bit heavy handed even for Blizzard.

Similarly, Azerite traits have this same problem. Blizzard said in a few Shadowlands previews that they don't intend to "depower" the HoA like they did the Artifact, but that it just gets weaker into Shadowlands. That means that all new classes have to have new Azerite traits designed for them, similarly with any new specs or redesigned specs.

The devs talking about HoA being active during Shadowlands is more about essence grinding not feeling like a total waste of time. Also non class specific traits already exist, if they wanted to keep Azerite armour for BfA levelling then they can simply have it that new classes can only choose from the generic traits. Alternatively they could just scrap Azerite armour altogether and just give those slots secondary stats again.

Blizzard, during BlizzCon, said that Shadowlands likely won't have any major spec overhauls, citing that they didn't want players to log in and realize that they had an entirely new spec to learn. Considering how poorly received BFA class design was, I'm relatively surprised by this.

Really depends on how you define a "major spec overhaul". In my mind that's Demonoloy/Survival during the transition of Legion to BfA.

Do you think Blizzard has locked themselves into a situation where they can't address the class design without major overhauls to existing systems?

Not at all. I feel you're drastically overestimating the level of changes required.

[korijenkins]

Did they add in tier sets for dk/monk/dh for all the raids prior to their entry? No.

Why would you assume a new class would also get a artifact hall

The assumption isn't there because they won't get a hall, but rather that the entire process of going through Legion leveling content uses the class halls as a nexus.

[Dracullus]

The assumption isn't there because they won't get a hall, but rather that the entire process of going through Legion leveling content uses the class halls as a nexus.

Lol, maybe during Legion. Right now I just fly to random zone and start questing. If they want new class, all they have to do is to add weapons for quests that gives relics and hero board with starting quests for all 4 zones.

[Loveliest]

IF there will be new classes and they think it's too much work to go over Legion, there's a few options:
- Legion content will not be available while leveling (you know how you'll be choosing where to level in from Chromie... you won't have access to Legion)
- said class will be a hero class, starting after Legion (I mean having a new class start from scratch is a pretty bad idea anyway, it's hard to get them up to speed in a new expansion; so this option is the most likely to happen and requires the least work involved)

[razorpax]

i mean they could just have the new class at a higher level??

[Yriel]

Why would any new class need a new class hall? Legion is not current content. Give them a weapon in their intro quest that scales with level and an NPC that starts zone questlines and boom, problem solved.

Same with traits. Why would we need new ones? Worst case you can use the neutral traits. It doesn't matter. It's not current content.

Did blizzard retro-actively make new shit for dk's monks or dh's? No they didn't.
Why is this an issue again?

Or even easier, through their new leveling system make those expansions unavailable to the new class(es). Chromie says something like "I can't let you go there, your kind didn't exist at that point at that place" and that's it.
Since you level up in one expansion anyways that would be the easiest.

[Cosmic Janitor]

All legion requires is some alternative NPC that lets you skip the 3 occasions where having an artefact weapon/order hall would have mattered. The impact of the orderhall quests is absolutely neglectable to finish leveling in Legion.

The only thing Blizzard has locked themselves into is classes existing. They already have shown that they are willing to completely change specs, the only thing they can't do is delete a class entirely.

[CrawlFromThePit]

So, I was thinking about it, and there's a decent amount of systems in the game that aren't particularly amiable to having new features added. Specifically, I'm referring to:

• New Classes
• New Specs
• Reworked Specs

What I mean by this is that due to class halls in Legion, new classes cannot level up through Legion content, at least, not without the rework of some of that expansion's features. Some argue that they can make a "neutral" class hall for all new classes if they want to play through Legion content. But even then, to keep in line with the other classes, they would need to make new Artifact weapons, even if they don't need traits. And, some might argue that they can just put in generic weapons instead. If that's the case, they would need to develop new weapons and replace currently existing quest rewards (probably the more useless Artifact relics). To do so would consume some amount of development time, but may eventually work. The same argument exists for any reworks of classes, like the requested return to ranged Survival, or at least fourth spec Ranged survival. Or, as Blizzard originally said at the end of WoD, if Gladiator Stance were to return as a spec. They too would need to be developed for in the class specific environment that Legion produced.

Similarly, Azerite traits have this same problem. Blizzard said in a few Shadowlands previews that they don't intend to "depower" the HoA like they did the Artifact, but that it just gets weaker into Shadowlands. That means that all new classes have to have new Azerite traits designed for them, similarly with any new specs or redesigned specs.

Blizzard, during BlizzCon, said that Shadowlands likely won't have any major spec overhauls, citing that they didn't want players to log in and realize that they had an entirely new spec to learn. Considering how poorly received BFA class design was, I'm relatively surprised by this. Even in the Legion pre-patch I recognized that the classes would only work due to the Artifact traits, and that without the Legion Artifact, the classes felt bad. A lot of people thought of Shadowlands as the "In case of emergency; break glass!" Expansion, something that would overhaul class design as BFA seemed to fail somehow worse than WoD did. And I know some people are concerned about Blizzard's ambivalence to the class design, giving old abilities back but not addressing the design failures that makes people not want to play Survival, Enhancement, and some other specs.

Do you think Blizzard has locked themselves into a situation where they can't address the class design without major overhauls to existing systems?

Not really, most of those are easily fixed by adding a simple quest that gives the necessary reward. You can go through legion very quickly with the basic artifact weapon without any thingies in it, if they make new classes they can give them a specific quest that gives a weapon. And all that is assuming there's no other way to get weapons, technically speaking with the new leveling in Shadowlands, you'll have access to a bunch of dungeons from 1-50, or every otehr maps really, no one is forced to be stuck with 1 weapon for long periods of time. Same applies to any spec changes they make, if they bring back range survival, just delete the artifact spear and replace it with a crossbow or some shit, it really doesn't matter.

As for class redesign because people didn't like classes in BfA, I think a big part of that is going in the Diablo direction, where gear changes your class more, they did talk about making more weird items that gives extra stuff, there's also the covenant abilities, and who knows what will happen with new legendaries and stuff.

Sure it's more complicated than straight forward class design that never changes, but at the same time if nothing changes people say it's always the same and they get bored, Blizzard needs to make changes in some ways anyway so it's a necessary development hell one way or another.

[kranur]

Not at all. Even if a new class was added in shadowlands it could have started at level 60 and just skip everything. As far as legion content goes the new class will just not have the campaign and a class hall. Or they could just have 1 specific to their class like dk's and monks had before legion.

[cparle87]

I think they've started running out of ideas. this is made evident by:

1. Bringing characters back from the dead in shadowlands
2. The dragging on of Sylvanas' story arc

Talks about dragging on of story arcs when his avatar is a race that was introduced in expansion two and was not fully explained until expansion six.