FFXIV Is Unrewarding

[KrayZ33]

I mean, he's not even scoundrel, he's shipwright.
(It's not my screenshot, apparently someone on Reddit was as confused as I)

I'd still be concerned with how anybody could come up with that line, but I'd be less pissed about man in the middle trying to show off when there's no need to.

Dude... he is a sea wolf....
They are the vikings and pirates of FFXIV (the whole [sub]race that is)
On top of that, he is in Limsa.

also relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwUUDypEDNQ

[Wrecktangle]

I am not spreading misinformation. You have no way to say that the numbers aren't plausible. All signs we have seen point to a trend wich makes it possible. I already mentioned them from the leak to wowlogs/fflogs servers. It's called an estimate. I didn't hide it was an estimate, i didn't say it was a certainty, i said it was a possibility. But you say wich such certainty that it is completely wrong, so, lets see your source on that.

I don't need to cite a source because I'm not claiming one way or the other. You are. You cited an incredibly flawed source and got called out on it then cited a secondary already disproven article and then are still sticking to it being "right" because you believe it so. You can't just say oh I said it was an estimate. You openly admitted that you believe it's right.

I get where you're coming from, but BLU is fun while the skill farming lasts, at least for me...but only the over world and dungeon skills. The ones that require you to do the trials are terrible. Getting new skills, earning new stuff, playing the job differently as a result is what makes it fun for me, which is why I typically enjoy leveling so much because you can see and feel the character growth. Gear doesn't interest me as much because, in most cases, your game play doesn't change at all as a result you just play the same way you always have and get bigger numbers. That's not exciting to me.

I agree that there needs to be more content that can be repeated and scaled, but but there's nothing inherently wrong with having a system that does have a perceived "end." MMO's are just somewhat intended to be longer term endeavors, so having multiple systems have a perceived "end" isn't really conducive to that design intent.

My apologies. I wrote this in haste last week when I really shouldn't have replied until I had more time.

There are some positive aspects to their BLU implementation. I still personally think it was the wrong way to do it, but I actually tend to like side power progression collection systems in general. I just don't think they did a good ENOUGH job with it to justify the effort they put into it. Much like how I feel about Eureka.

Whoa, Nellie! I know this is your opinion but PvP gets enough warranted hate without some of it suddenly being directed at an aspect that I believe really doesn't deserve it. The PvP maps are definitely fun and serve their purpose, to accentuate the power struggle that comes from a large scale fight of three faction.

Let's just take Seal Rock as an example, where the tomeliths can spawn at random places in the rocky island. Because of this the battlefield changes often, one time a tomelith might spawn behind your own lines making it much easier to defend, but if it spawns in an open field you are at the mercy of the other two companies catching you in a pincer and losing the node anyway, however if it spawns within the caverns now your team can decide to keep watch over the larger entrance while putting a token group on the choke point because you know the other two companies will be too busy killing each other to really push in though there. That's not even taking into account when multiple tomes spawn and their different worth. Your team might decide to just forego one spawn due to it's low worth to take a gamble and be in a better position of seizing the next one while the other two companies fight for the previous.

Some of the most fun I've had during PvP was deliberating and making such calls with the rest of the group and trying to adapt to the map together. And given that I usually freelance and end up with the Flames I can only imagine Mael and Adders do that even more considering those are the factions where PvPers tend to go to.

I'd say PvP in XIV is bad mostly because of the issues with server lag and the ever present balance problems that every MMO has, but the maps are some of the best aspects of it.

I will apologize to you as well. I should not have responded when I didn't have enough time to actually articulate a meaningful response.

The maps themselves are actually decent. I should not have said maps. My issues with PVP lie almost strictly with the netcode, balance, and general casual playerbase (communication, AFKs, etc.). In actuality we appear to agree entirely.

I do think that OVERALL PVP is a waste of resources though, because no matter how interesting the top layer, the foundation sucks terribly.

[Swnem]

I don't need to cite a source because I'm not claiming one way or the other. You are. You cited an incredibly flawed source and got called out on it then cited a secondary already disproven article and then are still sticking to it being "right" because you believe it so. You can't just say oh I said it was an estimate. You openly admitted that you believe it's right.

Wrong!

This is what happens when people get triggered just cause they saw something they don't like.

The claim wasn't mine. I responded to someone who said it can't possibly be the case (or as he put it: do people really believe this?), aka an argument from authority, wich btw is the same thing you are doing without a source.
If you go back to page 2 you can see where this conversation starts. Some guy made the claim that FF is the most subbed mmo. A wild claim. Another poster replies that it's unthinkable. I show the site and say it is no certainty but it is not as wild as you may think (notice i mention players, not subs). Btw even he admits it can happen for short periods of time. At wich point the WoW brigade jumps me for daring to point it out.
So, i ask you, how do you know the numbers are so wild that should be completely disregarded to the point that it's unthinkable the games are seeing a comparable number of players? Cause that is the claim you are now making. It better not be an argument from authority, cause i will dismiss it.

To make this simple for you. All i said was the other poster has no basis for his certainty.
Notice how i started my reply " Well there is no sure way to know". I made no claim. I merely doubted part of his rebuttal and expressed it is possible (wich he himself admits it can be at times) and i believe it is possible. For this i showed the sources that indeed prove that there is a trend that shows them getting closer and closer. wich is why your atempts at refuting them doesn't work. They merely need to show the possibility, and they do, wether they are estimates. If you think it's impossible, then you are in fact making a claim you need to back.
So, if you want someone to prove to you FF has more subs than WoW, you need to ask the guy that made the claim. I just said it's possible, i didn't say it's the case cause i don't have the data to draw that conclusion.

Moral of this whole thing is you (and those that also overeacted) should read before you react. I understand that is not always easy due to time constraints and we all make mistakes.
I guessed i should've been more careful on how i typed that post in retrospect. I though i was being clear with the first sentence, but feathers are more easily ruffled than i expected for this website. Somehow "we have no way to know but it's possible" became "it's a proven fact!". :/

[Katchii]

To make this simple for you. All i said was the other poster has no basis for his certainty.
/

I think the point is that neither do you, given that the source you're using, even as a gauge rather than a hard data point has been called out as flawed and/or false.

I don't doubt your claim really, the idea that it's plausible that FFXIV numbers are in the millions and therefore a solid second place to WoW is a realistic one IMO, I'm just saying that trying to lean on a set of data that has been revealed to be inaccurate and/or false doesn't help your case, at all.

[Seranthor]

I think the point is that neither do you, given that the source you're using, even as a gauge rather than a hard data point has been called out as flawed and/or false.

I don't doubt your claim really, the idea that it's plausible that FFXIV numbers are in the millions and therefore a solid second place to WoW is a realistic one IMO, I'm just saying that trying to lean on a set of data that has been revealed to be inaccurate and/or false doesn't help your case, at all.

^^^^ This guy gets it... Thank you.

[Hyral]

The maps themselves are actually decent. I should not have said maps. My issues with PVP lie almost strictly with the netcode, balance, and general casual playerbase (communication, AFKs, etc.). In actuality we appear to agree entirely.

I do think that OVERALL PVP is a waste of resources though, because no matter how interesting the top layer, the foundation sucks terribly.

We are saying the same thing. And I'm sure the reason why most of the playerbase treats PvP so casually is the netcode. Like you said, with the foundation so terrible it's no wonder many don't bother trying too hard.

I enjoy PvP quite a bit as a diversion but unfortunately I doubt it'll ever be fixed and taken serious.

[Swnem]

I think the point is that neither do you, given that the source you're using, even as a gauge rather than a hard data point has been called out as flawed and/or false.

I don't doubt your claim really, the idea that it's plausible that FFXIV numbers are in the millions and therefore a solid second place to WoW is a realistic one IMO, I'm just saying that trying to lean on a set of data that has been revealed to be inaccurate and/or false doesn't help your case, at all.

Good thing i didn't express one. Glad you understood.

But the data is an estimate based on twitter/reddit/forum activity and official numbers and it extrapolates number of players, not subs. It shows what it says it shows. No one claimed it was 100% real numbers. It is ridiculous to suggest that. They show a trend, and the trend suggests that the games are seeing similar levels of activity on social media. This added to things like wowlogs and fflogs getting similar sized servers suggests the communities are getting closer in size. Has FF passed Wow yet? Will it? No idea. But the possibility seems present, so i disputed it's unthinkable.

^^^^ This guy gets it... Thank you.

Next time you might want to say that rather than have a breakdown and spout nonsense accusations.

[leviathonlx]

I think the point is that neither do you, given that the source you're using, even as a gauge rather than a hard data point has been called out as flawed and/or false.

I don't doubt your claim really, the idea that it's plausible that FFXIV numbers are in the millions and therefore a solid second place to WoW is a realistic one IMO, I'm just saying that trying to lean on a set of data that has been revealed to be inaccurate and/or false doesn't help your case, at all.

The numbers stuff is always amusing since people look everywhere to try and support their claim when the reality is no one really has any idea and it's irrelevant anyway when hours played is the main metric these days. Back when ShB came out blogs and youtubers loved referring to the Steamcharts for FF14 overtaking WoW. They probably wouldn't want to use that now given that said Steamcharts show the game being lower than it was 4 months before ShB release and 5.1 being barely a bump. Though this is besides the fact that Steamcharts aren't exactly the best indicator given most don't play the game with Steam though I guess you can extrapolate player retention from that a bit since I doubt the demographic that plays FF14 on Steam is that wildly different than those that place on console and PC.

[Seranthor]

Good thing i didn't express one. Glad you understood.

But the data is an estimate based on twitter/reddit/forum activity and official numbers and it extrapolates number of players, not subs. It shows what it says it shows. No one claimed it was 100% real numbers. It is ridiculous to suggest that. They show a trend, and the trend suggests that the games are seeing similar levels of activity on social media. This added to things like wowlogs and fflogs getting similar sized servers suggests the communities are getting closer in size. Has FF passed Wow yet? Will it? No idea. But the possibility seems present, so i disputed it's unthinkable.



Next time you might want to say that rather than have a breakdown and spout nonsense accusations.

Translation: I didn't say they were real, but they have to be real because everyone says they are real, but no one can prove they are real, but they have to be close..

Cut your losses, and cut the bullshit. It's also possible that it could rain snow monkeys.

[Swnem]

Translation: I didn't say they were real, but they have to be real because everyone says they are real, but no one can prove they are real, but they have to be close..

Cut your losses, and cut the bullshit. It's also possible that it could rain snow monkeys.

Wow... Well, it's not surprising. Carry on being wrong.

[KrayZ33]

Wow... Well, it's not surprising. Carry on being wrong.

I have no flipping clue how you think FFXIV has "slightly" more players than WoW, when that site itself states the opposite.

On top of that, this site is basically the equivalent of counting a countries population by using facebook.
If I go to "top Games" on that page, WoW has 3,2m *daily* players, FFXIV has 1,6m.

https://mmo-population.com/r/wow/
https://mmo-population.com/r/ffxiv/

So I don't even have the slightest clue what that other page you linked even shows us or is supposed to show us.
That site is so fun, it tells us that WoW had 600k active players in 2015. Or <1m in 2016 (Legion release btw)

Can't you see what a joke this is?

edit: holy shit, the numbers you linked are Reddit subscribers and activity on reddit or something?
WoW has 1,3m Subs on reddit but very little activity, FFXIV has around 300k and more activity on reddit than WoW, that's what this chart tells you with weird voodoo-y math, nothing more. But that doesn't mean much when you consider that /r/wow isn't the "go to place" to talk about the game . A look on /r/wow and /r/ffxiv would yield the same result.

And their voodoo math is listed in their "about" section... so yeah... this is embarassing to even consider to be somewhat related to the real numbers.

[Necromantic]

I don't understand why the OP post received an infraction?

[Different Strokes]

> PvP didn't even exist early in the game. It was added as an after thought later for the people who seemed to want it, but it's never been a primary focus. PvP imbalance does not equal fun. Most e-sports PvP games that aren't MMOs have players all with balanced and equal stats and tools for their roles. Same HP, same tools, etc. Despite FFXIV being balanced more like the great majority of e-sports games out there, they don't try to pretend they're e-sports, like Blizzard games have a bad habit of doing. SE knows that PvP is not their area of focus, and they don't break the entire rest of the game for the sake of PvP, like WoW all too often does. It's a side distraction with some vanity rewards. Also, there's counterplays for most PvP situations. If you're losing, it's likely because you haven't figured them out yet.

> New Game+ is mostly for people who want a refresher on the story who haven't played it in awhile, or for people who story skipped and want the story anyway. There's kinks to be worked out and it's not in the final iteration yet anyway.

> If you're saying the have the ability to remove loading screens, as in they can make a seamless world, yet they could, but it would require massive restructuring of the world as it is, including rendering all of that space between zones that would otherwise just be void.

> Anyone remember when people said it would be easy to add flying to vanilla zones, and Blizzard ran into massive problems implementing flying even in the Cataclysm zones? Yeah lol. Retrofits aren't easy. I realize everyone thinks they're a game designer expert, but it becomes obvious when they are clearly anything but.

> Mythic dungeons are recycling content for the sake of pretending there's more content than there actually is. If you want some true challenge, do EX trials, Savage modes, or ultimate fights.

Some people seem to forget that while they retained a lot of the assets from the original game, they completely revamped the graphical engine the game runs on. The "spaghetti code" (A term that gets flung around and misused a lot by people pretending to be programmers when they're not) the game runs on is what saved it from the original disaster that 1.0 was.

No game is perfect, FFXIV has a lot of things it can improve upon, but the things the OP is touching on just feels like trying to make FFXIV more like WoW, when it's not supposed to be WoW.

[Wrecktangle]

Most e-sports PvP games that aren't MMOs have players all with balanced and equal stats and tools for their roles. Same HP, same tools, etc. Despite FFXIV being balanced more like the great majority of e-sports games out there, they don't try to pretend they're e-sports, like Blizzard games have a bad habit of doing. SE knows that PvP is not their area of focus, and they don't break the entire rest of the game for the sake of PvP, like WoW all too often does. It's a side distraction with some vanity rewards.

Just looking at the top 5 e sports games, 3/5 of them do not offer equal stats and tools for roles. Shooters tend to and I can't argue with that, but that's one specific genre complete with it's own set of nuances (ak vs. m4a1, map objectives, etc.). Not only that, but if you look further in other genres such as fighting games, card games, and others further break this trend. I would rather have PVP fuck some shit up some times, than be what we got in FF14. Again, I love FF14, but I wish they invested the PVP resources into other areas of the game because of how bad it is and I AM AN AVID PVPER in every game I play, except for literally FF14.

Mythic dungeons are recycling content for the sake of pretending there's more content than there actually is. If you want some true challenge, do EX trials, Savage modes, or ultimate fights.

Mythic Dungeons are one of the best features MMO's have seen in the last few years. It offers repeatable, scaleable, and challenging content for people who want it. Some of the mythic dungeons I have done have put even the hardest savage bosses to shame.

[Itori]

I maxed all classes, crafters, gatherers, beast tribe rep, and collection turn in rep, the game has a lot to do, but after you've done it all then you're more than welcome to unsubscribe. Yoshi-p even said that you aren't meant to spend every waking moment in the game, go out and have fun, do other things, play other games. If you don't enjoy the game then don't play, don't treat it like a full time job.

[Caperfin]

I maxed all classes, crafters, gatherers, beast tribe rep, and collection turn in rep, the game has a lot to do, but after you've done it all then you're more than welcome to unsubscribe. Yoshi-p even said that you aren't meant to spend every waking moment in the game, go out and have fun, do other things, play other games. If you don't enjoy the game then don't play, don't treat it like a full time job.

Im in a similar scenario but still have yet to unsub im always finding new stuff to do.

[sephrinx]

The sheer number of loading screens in this game is one of the biggest reasons for me not being able to enjoy it, along with some other gripes that add up and make it just not an enjoyable experience. I was so blown away when I first played this game and ran into loading screens every 5 minutes. It was astonishing to say the least. I can understand them once in a while, but every zone is riddled with them. It makes the game feel super disjointed and artificial, and makes navigating places very cumbersome and needlessly awkward.

Also couldn't find a class I really enjoyed, I think the combat system is just too slow and clunky for me to really get into. It has a lot of potential but sadly I feel it's squandered by "Yoshi P's """Vision""" for the game.

[Musta]

Cool. an opinion.

[Sharby]

You're too spoiled by games that have an endless treadmill so of course you'd think FF14 is unrewarding.


Once I got BiS I just hung out a bit and fooled around in casual content and unsubbed till next raid tier. It isn't hard.

[Kazgrel]

PvP isn't meant to be taken super seriously, no matter how hard SE tries to push Feast, which while fun, the game engine simply doesn't work that great for it. If you're playing this game strictly for PvP...yeah, no, there are waaaaaaay better options, both within the MMO market and other genres (personally I recommend the latter).