You're Immortal - Must Travel Back in Time 1 Million Year - Would You?

[cubby]

Absolutely yes. Most human progress has happened in the last 200 years and we didn't get very far at all in the 28000+ years before that so to have all that time would mean you could make a vastly superior civilization than we currently have. One thing that would be an absolute must would be as much information as you could find on prehistoric places you could get easy oil.

This is one of the premises I have working from in this ongoing thought exercise. My feeling is that if you bring back enough core material and a good team of people, you could rebuild an industrial society relatively quickly (within 50 years - under the idea that it will either work, or it won't - and if it doesn't, then it will deteriorate beyond a point of recovery). Aside from surviving whatever diseases they encounter, the two biggest issues are going to be food and power. Food should be simple, bringing back seeds/animals to grow and "harvest" - along with enough MRE's to survive until that first harvest.

Power is becoming the biggest issue in my mind. It has to be easy to access, not labor intensive, and construction must be possible with few people. I'm thinking hydroelectric for the long term, with Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator's providing the short term.

In regards to equipment. I'm thinking 3D construction printers. And printers that can print printers, if that makes sense. At least until the group gets a good machine shop going.

[Kokolums]

assuming current physics is correct, space keeps expanding faster and faster until you cannot see any galaxy except the milky way / andromeda anymore because the rest speeds away at faster than the speed of light. this process continues until the space between atoms undergoes massive expansion and atoms are ripped apart.

however, you break the laws of physics and are immortal. so the atoms in your body defy the big rip. you will tear away from the rest of the universe. in effect, you become your own universe. the organisms in your body are living in the only part of the universe that is left.

[cubby]

assuming current physics is correct, space keeps expanding faster and faster until you cannot see any galaxy except the milky way / andromeda anymore because the rest speeds away at faster than the speed of light. this process continues until the space between atoms undergoes massive expansion and atoms are ripped apart.

however, you break the laws of physics and are immortal. so the atoms in your body defy the big rip. you will tear away from the rest of the universe. in effect, you become your own universe. the organisms in your body are living in the only part of the universe that is left.

Fascinating ideas. But this is more of the "first-10,000,000-years" of society, rather than the last 40,000,000,000,000.

What equipment/professions would you bring? What would be your priorities?

[Cosmic Janitor]

Couple of great and interesting points. I'm going to relist each one to address.

1. Building and maintaining a nuclear powerplant alone is not a job you can do with 500 people.
That's not entirely true. Building one, for sure, that would take considerable resources, people, skill sets, etc. But running one, that takes very few people - especially for the low output nuclear reactor a society so small would need (as you so very accurately point out).

2. [W]hy would you even run something within the ballpark of 1GW output for less than 100k people?
Good question and excellent point. You wouldn't need a lot of power right away, but you might need it in 100 years. There are some very simple designs that could last 100 years (given proper maintenance, which I'll admit immediately might not be available in this scenario). And if a full small-scale nuclear reactor won't work, there are other varieties of nuclear-ish power (@Skroe would kill me for that reference) that might work even more effectively, for the requirements. The Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator is a good example. Tons of output for hardly any maintenance.
But why indeed. I think the reason is because if you can have more output than you need, rather than need more than you have, and you can maintain it given the scenario, it's worth having.

3. [B]ut from there it's all about getting some reliable stuff you can actually produce and maintain, most likely going back to coal.
If I understand the basics of coal, it's a very labor inducing process. I don't think that would be an effective source of energy given how few people would be available and how many more tasks would need attending/developing.

Nuclear power reactors don't scale (down) particularily well, you don't just build a "small one" for shits and giggles. Also you need alot more to continously operate a nuclear powerplant than the 2-3 guys that switch it on and off (in shifts). Again more is needed to operate someting than just the final step if it's relying on a lengthy chain of supplies. You need people that mine uranium, refine it, transport it between the various phases and the supply of the various intermediary compounds required to give you your fuel rods. RTGs are also not exactly something you use to power your cities with, in fact if you want to keep things like motors for production running you will probably want an AC net again, since getting to the point where you can create high power semi conductors for powerful inverters isn't going to be feasible for a while. The last thing you want is a nuclear power plant tbh, it's way too much for your little society and the risk is far from neglectable should anything happen to it.

Also yes, coal is labour intensive, as are most things you try to do here, since you will need mining on as large a scale as possible anyway. The most realistc managable power is probably hydroelectric then, but this come with it's own set of challenges. You simply won't have millions of gallons of fuel to power your construction equipment to fortify riverbeds and minimize the chance of flooding (and washing away your precious generator).

Also 3D printers are for prototyping, not really to get you parts that you can actually use under full load. If you have start treck 3d printing and disassembly then this might be different, but we don't have that :P.

[Kokolums]

First of all, you can re-create our current level of technology very very quickly.

1. Make an earthen kiln (which allows you to melt metal).
2. Send out geologists to discover metal deposits.
3. Send out miners to mine metal.
4. Melt various metals in the kiln to create steel, cast iron, etc.
5. Engineers can now construct a steam engine out of metal.
6. Mine copper, shape it into wires. Use the kiln to make ceramics to hold the wires.
7. Make glass with the kiln.
8. Assemble light bulbs.
9. Assemble heating units.
10. Your fleet of steam engines now power electricity for your lights, heat and other equipment.
11. Now you can build electric power tools, cars, etc really fast.

At that point you are already in the early 20th century. You just don't have computers yet, but most of the work has been done in just a few short years.

So, you bring 50 young geologists, scientists and engineers. You can skip steps in the process by bringing a kiln, furnace, tons of copper wire, lots of magnets, bring a bunch of dynamos and engines, cars from the present day. You could even bring electronics and computers because generating enough power is NO problem as you can bring some steel drums and boil water in them to generate plenty of electricity. One of the most important aspects is to bring a slew of engineer schematics to design more complicated structures and devices.

A 100 by 100 meter space would allow you to bring back machines to make clothes and shoes. Some of your 50 people will need to be experts with these machines. Blueprints for the machines would also be needed. Making new cloth should be pretty easy from whatever plants are around. Latex comes from specific modern plants so creating rubber might be an issue.

Ideally you'd like to bring back cows for milk and meat but you won't be able to fit enough of them into your 100x100 space. You CAN bring back seeds for all kinds of various foods. You'll have to build a greenhouse for them though. Some of your 50 will need to be farmers.

The most difficult task is breeding more humans. 50 humans IS in fact enough genetic diversity to create a entire population of humans from. Unfortunately, you will require incredibly strict controls on who is allowed to breed with whom, how many kids they can have, whether they have boys or girls, etc. for several generations until the population gets large enough to allow for people to choose their own partner if they want. We're looking at arranged marriages and making sure there are NO love children which will poison the gene pool with deadly mutations. It will be an extremely authoritarian regime. You are basically a god so the task of being an authoritarian ruler likely falls to you.

[Aenigma84]

if you can bring a nuclear powerplant i would probably prefer a dam or 2 tbh for that few people
probably easier & safer to maintain
energy & fresh water

these days you got 3d printers that can print a house very fast to so if you got the recourses and you can bring a ton if your allowed to use 100x100m

[markos82]

The point is exponential growth, 50 people is nothing, its like not having a single person at all for you who can live forever.
Like i said, if I can be granted immortality and give next 300 years in this time-line then i won't need a single person.
Because ( considering this is a make belief scenario ) I would be able to take 10000m2 of technology there.
If this is right then i could be able to get nano technology with me, i could take robots that would be powered by some new power ( and who knows how long could they be able to work without recharging ).
If i can take nano-bots and learn new stuff in those 300 years I would be able to program them to do any imaginable thing, replicate and so on.
I could be able to make entire cities with just a can of nano-bots....

[derpkitteh]

i would do it, and take back a couple latin teachers to teach me, and people and equipment capable of building and manufacturing and safely storing millions of rounds of ammunition and guns. also, several volumes on building older technological things. combustion engine, cotton gin, antibiotics, etc. etc.

then i would bide my time until rome arises. once it reaches a nice height in power, i'd go and demonstrate my power and technology, and become its ruler. then, i would get the entire civilization to move across the atlantic and found america before any other europeans could arrive.

might use my powers to exterminate all opposing forces from europe and others that opposed rome. create a situation of devastation in these other lands that sets them all back hundreds of years, if not erases them entirely. then from our seat of power in new america, we simply grow and grow in civilization and power until modernity. we'd reach other worlds, advance science by thousands of years, it would be utopia because i would be immortal and there to guide it eternally. a benevolent empress to never allow laws and rules to change, never allow the society to become too decadent. it'd be a fix to the one factor that causes humanity to constantly fail, the lack of permanent and uncorruptable leadership.

[Kokolums]

The point is exponential growth, 50 people is nothing, its like not having a single person at all for you who can live forever.
Like i said, if I can be granted immortality and give next 300 years in this time-line then i won't need a single person.
Because ( considering this is a make belief scenario ) I would be able to take 10000m2 of technology there.
If this is right then i could be able to get nano technology with me, i could take robots that would be powered by some new power ( and who knows how long could they be able to work without recharging ).
If i can take nano-bots and learn new stuff in those 300 years I would be able to program them to do any imaginable thing, replicate and so on.
I could be able to make entire cities with just a can of nano-bots....

You failed to read the OP.

OP specified CURRENT tech only can be brought back. You can't leap into the future, grab future tech, and bring it back. So magical nanotech or robots are out. Also, OP specified you cannot bring a power source of any kind back with you, so the new power source for your robots is also excluded.

You pretty much got everything wrong lol. If you can't correctly read a post without bungling it, I'm not sure you are gonna make it by yourself without help 1 million years in the past. You gave me quite the chuckle however. Don't take it personally, it was just funny to read.

[markos82]

You failed to read the OP.

OP specified CURRENT tech only can be brought back. You can't leap into the future, grab future tech, and bring it back. So magical nanotech or robots are out. Also, OP specified you cannot bring a power source of any kind back with you, so the new power source for your robots is also excluded.

You pretty much got everything wrong lol. If you can't correctly read a post without bungling it, I'm not sure you are gonna make it by yourself without help 1 million years in the past. You gave me quite the chuckle however. Don't take it personally, it was just funny to read.

He said currently exists, never did he said i cant accept the "challenge" live for next 300 years and take that current technology into past. Also we really don't know level of technology that is being tested right now or technology not for current use by consumers like you and me. That is why I said if i can live in this time-line and 300 years into future. He said I need to provide my own power, he didn't specified I can't take machinery that has internal power source already inside. Also if you wanna go literally I can take materials that I can assemble and create power source.

[Templar 331]

This is one of the premises I have working from in this ongoing thought exercise. My feeling is that if you bring back enough core material and a good team of people, you could rebuild an industrial society relatively quickly (within 50 years - under the idea that it will either work, or it won't - and if it doesn't, then it will deteriorate beyond a point of recovery). Aside from surviving whatever diseases they encounter, the two biggest issues are going to be food and power. Food should be simple, bringing back seeds/animals to grow and "harvest" - along with enough MRE's to survive until that first harvest.

Power is becoming the biggest issue in my mind. It has to be easy to access, not labor intensive, and construction must be possible with few people. I'm thinking hydroelectric for the long term, with Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator's providing the short term.

In regards to equipment. I'm thinking 3D construction printers. And printers that can print printers, if that makes sense. At least until the group gets a good machine shop going.

I'm kind of wondering if an industrial society would pop up at all. What need would there be for industry for just 50 people? Air conditioning and refrigerators would be nice but could you afford to divert man power away from food production to create these things or the tech to sustain them? Even if you brought back 3D printers and solar panels to power them with, what would you make that would increase the chance of survival for those people?

[cubby]

Nuclear power reactors don't scale (down) particularily well, you don't just build a "small one" for shits and giggles. Also you need alot more to continously operate a nuclear powerplant than the 2-3 guys that switch it on and off (in shifts). Again more is needed to operate someting than just the final step if it's relying on a lengthy chain of supplies. You need people that mine uranium, refine it, transport it between the various phases and the supply of the various intermediary compounds required to give you your fuel rods. RTGs are also not exactly something you use to power your cities with, in fact if you want to keep things like motors for production running you will probably want an AC net again, since getting to the point where you can create high power semi conductors for powerful inverters isn't going to be feasible for a while. The last thing you want is a nuclear power plant tbh, it's way too much for your little society and the risk is far from neglectable should anything happen to it.

Also yes, coal is labour intensive, as are most things you try to do here, since you will need mining on as large a scale as possible anyway. The most realistc managable power is probably hydroelectric then, but this come with it's own set of challenges. You simply won't have millions of gallons of fuel to power your construction equipment to fortify riverbeds and minimize the chance of flooding (and washing away your precious generator).

Also 3D printers are for prototyping, not really to get you parts that you can actually use under full load. If you have start treck 3d printing and disassembly then this might be different, but we don't have that :P.

My thought on the nuclear reactor was that we'd get it all ready to go, then ship it back, requiring the minimalist crew to maintain it. However, you're right that it would still take a decent percentage of the crew to keep it operational, and even then, if a part breaks or there are materials that need replacing, no dice. That's what I'm think the RTG would be the best way to go. Pretty much runs itself and provides enough power output for anything remotely needed in the first few decades.

Bring four, two operational, and two "packed away" - I know the fuel won't be on "hold" if packed away, but the thought is to bring back replacement parts, including full replacement.

I didn't realize that about 3D printers. Are there any out there, even crazy expensive ones, that can print full load material? I thought a couple dozen 3D printers and enough carbon fiber to last awhile.

[ranzino]

for some pretty solutions: iceland is known for its geothermal power, search for such areas elsewhere too and use that ?

another solution: Oklo area in gabon was once blessed with self sustaining nuclear fissions. if you could get something like that up and running (we know by now where uranium is to be found) would mean a steady source of power. Oklo provided some 100 kW thermal power at any given moment over 500 000 years by totally natural process; we probaly could do better ?

[cubby]

I'm kind of wondering if an industrial society would pop up at all. What need would there be for industry for just 50 people? Air conditioning and refrigerators would be nice but could you afford to divert man power away from food production to create these things or the tech to sustain them? Even if you brought back 3D printers and solar panels to power them with, what would you make that would increase the chance of survival for those people?

It would need to pop up in order to not fall away and ensure the new society would survive. While the first 50 people wouldn't need a lot to survive, they would need food and water and power and stimulation. Plus, one possibility of the scenario isn't to sustain the 50 people, but grow the whole thing into a new society.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I didn't realize that about 3D printers. Are there any out there, even crazy expensive ones, that can print full load material? I thought a couple dozen 3D printers and enough carbon fiber to last awhile.

3d printers(sinters/melters) are usually limited in what material they can actually print(sinter/melt) and you don't exactly get high range of quality alloys out of them. While many of the companies will claim that their parts are fully functional (in case of sinters/melters), from personal experience I can't agree to that. Maybe we just haven't found the one with the 1million $ production machine, overall the quality is usually lacking to regular machined parts though. You are also very limited in size of what you can actually print, it takes ages, you need extremly fine metal dust of high purity - all of which makes it quite expensive in practice.

There are a couple of process issues like porosity/density, strees from cooling, surface quality (still requiring machining anyway in some cases), etc. For high quality parts you might have even several tries per part until you have got the process right. In this case, the better your printer is, the more fine tuning and maintainance it will probably require. That is also if you have enough high quality metal powder to supply it. Even if you bring alot along, the problem with fine metal powder (besides being flameable in some cases), it also will oxydize like hell. Self sustaining itself will not be easy either, so it's far from a "backbone" technology I would bring on our little time travel surival game here .

[cubby]

3d printers(sinters/melters) are usually limited in what material they can actually print(sinter/melt) and you don't exactly get high range of quality alloys out of them. While many of the companies will claim that their parts are fully functional (in case of sinters/melters), from personal experience I can't agree to that. Maybe we just haven't found the one with the 1million $ production machine, overall the quality is usually lacking to regular machined parts though. You are also very limited in size of what you can actually print, it takes ages, you need extremly fine metal dust of high purity - all of which makes it quite expensive in practice.

There are a couple of process issues like porosity/density, strees from cooling, surface quality (still requiring machining anyway in some cases), etc. For high quality parts you might have even several tries per part until you have got the process right. In this case, the better your printer is, the more fine tuning and maintainance it will probably require. That is also if you have enough high quality metal powder to supply it. Even if you bring alot along, the problem with fine metal powder (besides being flameable in some cases), it also will oxydize like hell. Self sustaining itself will not be easy either, so it's far from a "backbone" technology I would bring on our little time travel surival game here .

How many of the problems you listed above would be solved/eliminated if money weren't an object? I'm asking because it sounds like a lot of the low- and middle-range printers would be very problematic, but that the higher end ones would not have a lot of issues. Same with the metal powder supply. It seems like it if was packed very well, and provided a method of delivery that would prevent oxidization of the remaining supply (like in a vacuum), we would be ok to use it for some production solutions.

You bring up another point about the failure rates of 3D printers - that's an issue that will either have to be resolved through redundancy or cause the entire subject to be tossed out.

- - - Updated - - -

for some pretty solutions: iceland is known for its geothermal power, search for such areas elsewhere too and use that ?

another solution: Oklo area in gabon was once blessed with self sustaining nuclear fissions. if you could get something like that up and running (we know by now where uranium is to be found) would mean a steady source of power. Oklo provided some 100 kW thermal power at any given moment over 500 000 years by totally natural process; we probaly could do better ?

That's an interesting idea. If I understand geo-thermal power, it takes a large crew to maintain the power plant. While it would certainly create a highly sustainable power source for generations, I fear that the upfront cost in time/material/personnel might not make it possible.

Perhaps a fully operational geothermal power plant might be a generational goal, using smaller power supplies to get everything up and going, while the population grows, etc.

[Kokolums]

I'm kind of wondering if an industrial society would pop up at all. What need would there be for industry for just 50 people? Air conditioning and refrigerators would be nice but could you afford to divert man power away from food production to create these things or the tech to sustain them? Even if you brought back 3D printers and solar panels to power them with, what would you make that would increase the chance of survival for those people?

You must select the correct 50 people. They must be:

1. experts in a scientific, engineering, textile or agricultural field.
2. humble and respectful (no confident punks).
3. industrious and hard working (not lazy).
4. people who don't gossip.

If you just grab 50 random experts, you'll likely get a bunch of jerks that bicker, argue, gossip and stab each other in the back. We're trying to BUILD something here, not have a crapshow.

[Shadowferal]

*nods*
Those experts will need to have qualities that encourage social cohesion.
And while anti-social behavior probably shouldn't be in the mix, I've always found it necessary to have some contrary behavior. (Makes life less boring)

[cubby]

You must select the correct 50 people. They must be:

1. experts in a scientific, engineering, textile or agricultural field.
2. humble and respectful (no confident punks).
3. industrious and hard working (not lazy).
4. people who don't gossip.

If you just grab 50 random experts, you'll likely get a bunch of jerks that bicker, argue, gossip and stab each other in the back. We're trying to BUILD something here, not have a crapshow.

Agreed. And not just in the fields you listed, but also Medical Doctors.

And yeah, they will need to all get along, have the same purpose of mission, the same long-term goals.

[Templar 331]

You must select the correct 50 people. They must be:

1. experts in a scientific, engineering, textile or agricultural field.
2. humble and respectful (no confident punks).
3. industrious and hard working (not lazy).
4. people who don't gossip.

If you just grab 50 random experts, you'll likely get a bunch of jerks that bicker, argue, gossip and stab each other in the back. We're trying to BUILD something here, not have a crapshow.

Seeing as it's 1 million years in the past, I'd be more worried about surviving than building. Back then there were sloths bigger than vans. Giant land birds that could mess up a polar bear. And worst of all, primitive humans.

I just don't see the need for modern luxuries when you have all that bearing down on you.