Warchief Baine

[Jaggler]

I don't want any warchief rn

[Mardux]

The Alliance and Horde should have gotten over their differences by now, especially since the world is literally in danger of ending on a yearly basis... In no logical scenario would they see how often the world is in mortal danger and keep fighting eachother.

So yeah, I'm in favor of any Horde leadership that isn't going to start another pointless war (though I'd prefer Lor'themar over Baine). We don't need the Horde and Alliance to be at war to "keep the War in Warcraft" because we are literally always at war with some external threat.

They tried to get over their differences. Then Anduin decided Calia should come to the Gathering, thus reigniting the war that was tapering off.

OT: Fuck no. They're already stuck with a council made mostly of alliance buddies, they don't need Anduin's best friend running them solo.

[Nathreim]

I would accept a Warchief Baine only because the worst Warchief is better than any council.

[Schattenlied]

They tried to get over their differences. Then Anduin decided Calia should come to the Gathering, thus reigniting the war that was tapering off.

Calia had no desire to take back Lordaeron, and her being there isn't what caused those forsaken to try to defect, none of them even knew she was there until after they already had started leaving.

Also don't try to lay blame for this on Anduin, you and I both know Sylvanas' true motives for starting this war and they have absolutely nothing to do with anything other than feeding souls to her BFF in the Maw.

[mickybrighteyes]

It bugs me that they still haven't replaced the Lordaeron L with the Stormwinder Lion. The Lordaeron crest is basically the second insignia of the Forsaken.. May even be primary now that Sylvanas has ditched them (or "ditched" them depending on what you think is happening), as the shattered mask is specific to Sylvanas. Everything else on the Alliance uses the Stormwinder Lion. It would be like the Kaldorei using Azshara's ancient crest.

I'm not sure it's an L for lordaeron or if it's a weird thing about what the in game common writing is supposed to be vs what we can read. Common doesn't use any character that looks like a full on "L"

I assumed it was something else for awhile cause it also resembles a "P" on it's upper portion which I don't think I can recall any "P" names of importance for Lordaeron. Perenolde was something I recalled but they were traitors to the alliance or a pawn someone used to try and usurp Alterac.

Though I can't find much on what the symboles are... beyond it's position as "Icon of Courage"... I'm not sure what the heck it is supposed to be.

On topic, I think the Horde is trying to do a council kind of thing, which makes sense anyway because it's a collective of usually-at-odds nations who really shouldn't have any respect for the Legion-spawned orcish tradition of warchief. I don't even know why orcs keep using that. It wasn't a thing until the Legion started influencing them in the first place, IIRC.

I'm not sure it's accurate to say that it's a "legion spawned" thing. Such advancements are typical in bringing groups together to force change more rapidly. Whether you call it "Warchief", "Leader", "Lord","Khan", "King", or "Emperor" it amounts to the same thing. A singular entity taking charge. It's an easy enough observation to say we only see it when the Legion/outside force intervened... cause that's the only times we actually see orc culture. But keep in mind that even without a 'warchief' leading they still fall in line under a leader with the same authority among their smaller clans. The original story starts with the legion already having Gul'dan coerce a mass movment of all orcs. WoD starts with Garrosh doing the same. There is no other option to see if that would happen anyways under another group like the bleeding hollow getting a vission of conquest or the thunderlords attempting to expand or hell maybe Blackhand was just waiting for a reason to do something himself.

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Calia had no desire to take back Lordaeron,

Her revealing her presence and declaring that forsaken should move to Stromguard indicates otherwise. She had no desire prior to being on the field and seeing people face to face, that much is true, but her actions on the field are what they might mean.

[Schattenlied]

Her revealing her presence and declaring that forsaken should move to Stromguard indicates otherwise. She had no desire prior to being on the field and seeing people face to face, that much is true, but her actions on the field are what they might mean.

Uhh, no, she just wanted to protect those who were currently seeking freedom, that's a completely different thing than trying to take control over Lordaeron.

[Broken Fox]

Baine needs to be stabbed to death and forgotten

[mickybrighteyes]

Uhh, no, she just wanted to protect those who were currently seeking freedom, that's a completely different thing than trying to take control over Lordaeron.

I'm sorry you seem to be under the impression that her attempts to undermine the Sovereign leadership of an established nation isn't at all a coup because she wanted to protect people she suddenly felt an urge to interact with.

Once she revealed herself as Calia Menethil she set things in motion at the event because her identity carries a certain meaning and her presence implies something and her attempts at convincing Velcinda/Elsie put it that she was doing more than just trying to protect her people.

The heir to a lost throne trying to rope in their would be followers from an existing nation is a direct challenge to the authority of that nation. Calling it a coup isn't that far different from calling Robin Hood's actions theft.

[Leyre]

No, no more Warchief, fuck the conflict war

[mickybrighteyes]

No, no more Warchief, fuck the conflict war

Would still happen regardless of the warchief's presence/existence.

[Maxilian]

At least Baine is honest with his allegiances.

I wonder, if he's label as Alliance while being in Stormwind as a Emissary, will the Horde be able to kill him? (or will he be as Malfurion and just stand there while we kill Anduin?)

[Schattenlied]

I'm sorry you seem to be under the impression that her attempts to undermine the Sovereign leadership of an established nation isn't at all a coup because she wanted to protect people she suddenly felt an urge to interact with.

She wasn't, they were leaving with or without her... YOU seem to be under the impression that they only tried to flee because she was there, when in reality they didn't even know she was present, or alive for that matter, until after they had already begun to flee... They had planned to do so in advance of the meeting even taking place.

The heir to a lost throne trying to rope in their would be followers from an existing nation is a direct challenge to the authority of that nation.

She wasn't trying to rope in anyone, as I explained above, those people were making their own decision and she had nothing to do with it.



And regardless of that, it's impossible to lay blame for this war on Calia or Anduin, since the announcement of Shadowlands everyone now knows Sylvanas' true motives for starting this war and they have absolutely nothing to do with anything other than feeding souls to her BFF in the Maw.

[Ielenia]

Submission and acceptance of your people's deaths? Killing your own soldiers?

Talking about Sylvanas? Because, y'know, she did "accept the death of her people", and "killed her own soldiers". Unlike Baine, though, she did so gleefully.

[mickybrighteyes]

She wasn't, they were leaving with or without her... YOU seem to be under the impression that they only tried to flee because she was there, when in reality they didn't even know she was present, or alive for that matter, until after they had already begun to flee.

The main action didn't occur till after Calia revealed she was Calia. As the hooded priest nothing was really wrong or all that pressing. Yes there were some already defecting.

She wasn't trying to rope in anyone, as I explained above, those people were making their own decision and she had nothing to do with it.

maybe you should reread around page 505-520ish. She has a rather pleading moment with Elsie asking for her support. "You are my people," "You won't have to live in the shadows" She pointed out other defectors and was very much trying to get more. "[...] see them? They're defecting. Anduin will shelter and protect them all; [...]"

Really looks as though she was trying to get more defectors. Page 516 of Before the Storm, btw.

And regardless of that, it's impossible to lay blame for this war on Calia or Anduin, you and I both know Sylvanas' true motives for starting this war and they have absolutely nothing to do with anything other than feeding souls to her BFF in the Maw.

At this point the motives aren't supported in the material of the past stories. NOw Sylvanas has been working for ulterior motives since at least her suicide in the Wrath events post Wrath gate... or even longer still (despite no other proof present in lore sources).


OVerall though, the writers did a very good job setting up numerous Casus Belli and then utterly forgetting the implications of such events and that such events at all took place. They even seemed to have forgotten a whole ass war took place or ignored and tossed out a lot of details to make THIS war work. Cause the fourth war according to sources is having origins in Legion and disregarding the Northrend > Cata > MoP 'war'

[Niwes]

No, because I feel like the Horde doesn't need a Warchief right now. Half the time that just ends badly. The Horde needs a council that has multiple opinions and makes joint decisions.

the best thing imo is to use that sylvanas desaster and go like „we learned from garrosh and sylvi that a war chief has too many downsides than upsides. Horde lead is council-only from now on.“

imo the best blizz could do.

[FurryRedVixen]

I honestly dont get the hate towards baine, hes never betrayed the idea of the horde that his father and thrall set out to make so longago, with voljin.

Its almost like people enjoyed being pawns of the banshee queen or murderous sociopaths of garrash.

I, for one, been horde from day one and enjoyed playing and being on that side, the idea of different species coming together against harsh climes, norms, and radical differences with torrid pasts appeals to me. The idea of making a home out of nothing but dirt and sweat and blood seems very respectable.

I support the idea of cohabitation until the egg shell we live on cracks and the new god titan Azeroth is born.

[Niwes]

I actually can’t think of a Horde “racial” leader I’d prefer less to lead than Baine. At least Sylvanas had a backbone.
I’d take freaking Kiro over Baine as Warchief.

this /10 chars

[Aresk]

As someone who mained Alliance in Vanilla, swapped to Horde around AQ, mained Horde through Suramar, then swapped to Alliance for the raiding guild I'm currently in, I voted yes. Having seen both sides' stories, I think it would be far more interesting to have Baine and Anduin in a position of power where they don't have the luxury of leaving hard decisions to the actual leader. If they want to pursue peace, they have to be the ones to make the hard calls. When the Horde and Alliance have a conflict, and their people's best interests require them to not be on the same side of the issue, how does that affect their friendship? I think that's a far more interesting story than what we had during the last ceasefire, which was Anduin pleading with his father for peace and Baine pleading with whomever the current warchief is for peace without having to actually consider the welfare of their people.

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I vote no, but it does not matter, as the vulperan quest chain already makes clear Baine behaves de facto as a Warchief, even if he lacks the title. His main limitation as leader of a council, aka actually listening to other members of the council, is ignored, as shown by the fact all decisions taken about dismissing, and later accepting vulperan are made without even talking to Thalyssra, who was next to him all the time.

Baine was instrumental in bringing in both the Highmountain and Zandalari. He was the main Horde leader orchestrating the Horde efforts on Zandalar while Nathanos orchestrated efforts on Kul Tiras. It makes sense from both of these perspectives that he'd be the one that the vulpera would talk to, since he's already aware of things that happened in Vol'dun and he's already worked as emissaries of allied races.

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How is it honorable to accept that alliance killing rastakhan was correct? Accepting peace in alliance term is saying that all the lives lost meant nothing to Baine and agreeing that alliance was 100% correct in murdering rastakhan.

I assume you're talking about the scene at Rastakhan's funeral where Nathanos confirms the Alliance are about to win on all fronts and then Baine recommends opening negotiations? That's a far cry from saying, "Oh, they killed someone, so they must be correct and we should surrender." That's far more a, "Maybe we should stop throwing lives into a war we're about to lose and see if there's someway we can end this without bloodshed." I don't recall him ever mentioning the Alliance is 100% correct.

[matrix123mko]

It bugs me that they still haven't replaced the Lordaeron L with the Stormwinder Lion. The Lordaeron crest is basically the second insignia of the Forsaken.. May even be primary now that Sylvanas has ditched them (or "ditched" them depending on what you think is happening), as the shattered mask is specific to Sylvanas. Everything else on the Alliance uses the Stormwinder Lion. It would be like the Kaldorei using Azshara's ancient crest.

Although, Lordaeron is now a smoldering crater and an increasing number of Forsaken aren't Lordaeron...ians (Lords? Do you just call them Lords? Lordish? Who knows, Lordaeronian sounds awkward. Maybe Lordaerish?) so maybe the L should be retired to history altogether.

Totally agreed. Alliance has no(Calia isn't officially Alliance.) claims to Lordaeron.

On topic, I think the Horde is trying to do a council kind of thing, which makes sense anyway because it's a collective of usually-at-odds nations who really shouldn't have any respect for the Legion-spawned orcish tradition of warchief. I don't even know why orcs keep using that. It wasn't a thing until the Legion started influencing them in the first place, IIRC.

First warchief was chosen by Ner'zhul to unite the clans against common enemy. Warchief is temporary leader for wartime(Roman dictator or Greek tactician) which is logical as huge armies need one supreme commander. However, warchiefs existed for 30+ years because in Warcraft there is no peace.

[docterfreeze]

Faction pride died with garrosh for the horde and varian for the alliance. Leaders for either faction doesn't really matter anymore because there are no more conflict characters, IE characters that want more than a peaceful stalemate.