Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[apustus]

More like, some people here spew unchecked bullshit. Gap between heroic and mythic gear is 2%? What kind of nonsense is that?

But this 430 Freehold ring is only 2% worse than this mythic Queen's Court ring, so it means that mythic gear is 2% better than baseline m+ gear, right? EZ maths, checkmate elitists.

[Azerate]

Mythic is the fringe difficulty for the most skilled players and it should remain so.

Heroic is the go-to difficulty for an average player who wants to push themselves. If mythic is too much for someone, which is understandable, they should adapt and just go full heroic instead.

[Gaidax]

But this 430 Freehold ring is only 2% worse than this mythic Queen's Court ring, so it means that mythic gear is 2% better than baseline m+ gear, right? EZ maths, checkmate elitists.

I sure hope you are sarcastic, because this is not how this works.

If you take cumulative gear from Heroic and M+ and pit it against full Mythic gear, you will have easy 10% more throughput and decent deal more survivability for Mythic player. Does not take rocket scientist to figure it out.

[apustus]

I sure hope you are sarcastic, because this is not how this works.

If you take cumulative gear from Heroic and M+ and pit it against full Mythic gear, you will have easy 10% more throughput and decent deal more survivability for Mythic player. Does not take rocket scientist to figure it out.

Congratulations, you cracked the code.

[vsb]

It's an understandable desire, but it isn't on Blizzard to fix the game to cater to players who don't want to improve. Players need to get better at the game, get rid of players holding them back, or be content with their 6/8M.

That's wrong. There's no need to improve to finish LFR, Normal or Heroic difficulty. There was never need to improve to finish Molten Core. There was never need to finish ICC 25 heroic outside of Arthas. You just had to try long enough. I don't want to improve. I don't want to drop my friends who're not able to improve. I want any boss in the game to die after 100 attempts, that's it. This toxic elitism does not belong to WoW. It was never there in the first place.

[Gaidax]

That's wrong. There's no need to improve to finish LFR, Normal or Heroic difficulty. There was never need to improve to finish Molten Core. There was never need to finish ICC 25 heroic outside of Arthas. You just had to try long enough. I don't want to improve. I don't want to drop my friends who're not able to improve. I want any boss in the game to die after 100 attempts, that's it. This toxic elitism does not belong to WoW. It was never there in the first place.

That's why you have 4 difficulties to select whatever you want from. Not terribly sure what's so wrong about top difficulty being an actual challenge for people who want this like me.

You don't have to do it, you know. You lose nothing by not doing it story-wise and there are plenty of gear sources otherwise, that provide all gear you ever need for doing everything else anyway.

[vsb]

That's why you have 4 difficulties to select whatever you want from. Not terribly sure what's so wrong about top difficulty being an actual challenge for people who want this like me.

There's no suitable difficulty for me and 80% of other mythic raiders. Heroic is too easy. Buff heroic so it would correspond to 6/8 current mythic, remove gear from mythic, so heroic rewards best gear in the game, remove different abilities from mythic (make it buffed heroic) and nobody would complain about mythic just like nobody complains about difficult M+25 or whatever considered highest now. After I finished +15 I don't care about other difficulties and those who care are welcome to exclude as many people from their groups as they want.

You don't have to do it, you know. You lose nothing by not doing it story-wise and there are plenty of gear sources otherwise, that provide all gear you ever need for doing everything else anyway.

Raid boss strategy is a content. It's the most important content for me, personally. I want to experience it. Also I want to have best gear in the game and raid gear is unique and the easiest to get.

[Gaidax]

There's no suitable difficulty for me and 80% of other mythic raiders. Heroic is too easy. Buff heroic so it would correspond to 6/8 current mythic, remove gear from mythic, so heroic rewards best gear in the game, remove different abilities from mythic (make it buffed heroic) and nobody would complain about mythic just like nobody complains about difficult M+25 or whatever considered highest now. After I finished +15 I don't care about other difficulties and those who care are welcome to exclude as many people from their groups as they want.

Or, you can just you know... get good or something. I get it, you want easymode mythic, but I don't think game needs 5 difficulty modes at this point just to sate people at the level where they can't kill M.Orgozoa or M.Court 5 months in.

4 difficulty levels are plenty enough and they don't need to buff heroic or nerf mythic either. Mythic is absolutely fine as it is, it's just that not many are up to it, just like not many are up to Dark Souls or what not.

[asil]

There's no suitable difficulty for me and 80% of other mythic raiders. Heroic is too easy. Buff heroic so it would correspond to 6/8 current mythic, remove gear from mythic, so heroic rewards best gear in the game, remove different abilities from mythic (make it buffed heroic) and nobody would complain about mythic just like nobody complains about difficult M+25 or whatever considered highest now. After I finished +15 I don't care about other difficulties and those who care are welcome to exclude as many people from their groups as they want.


Raid boss strategy is a content. It's the most important content for me, personally. I want to experience it. Also I want to have best gear in the game and raid gear is unique and the easiest to get.

So you want the best gear in the game but you don't actually want to earn it?

[KaPe]

Or, you can just you know... get good or something. I get it, you want easymode mythic, but I don't think game needs 5 difficulty modes at this point just to sate people at the level where they can't kill M.Orgozoa or M.Court 5 months in.

4 difficulty levels are plenty enough and they don't need to buff heroic or nerf mythic either. Mythic is absolutely fine as it is, it's just that not many are up to it, just like not many are up to Dark Souls or what not.

If that was the case, they wouldn't keep nerfing Ashvane. They did it, what, three times already? There's a point where they should decide that she's been nerfed enough and move to Orgozoa/Court... except not one month before new raid, right before holidays/new year. Nerf one wall, then another and so on - by the time you're done, it's new tier/expansion and Cutting Edge still remains fairly exclusive, but people aren't stuck at bosses that have long been forgotten by Azshara's farmers. It's not like these recent nerfs will push people from Ashvane to Azshara - even if they manage to reach 6/8, Za'qul will crush them.

That's not even getting into stuff like, once again, one of bosses being extremely melee unfriendly, which should have been fixed much earlier. And their brilliant fix is -5% hp. Fuck yeah, eight melee it is. (and guilds at this level don't have the luxury of ranged alts)

[asil]

If that was the case, they wouldn't keep nerfing Ashvane. They did it, what, three times already? There's a point where they should decide that she's been nerfed enough and move to Orgozoa/Court... except not one month before new raid, right before holidays/new year. Nerf one wall, then another and so on - by the time you're done, it's new tier/expansion and Cutting Edge still remains fairly exclusive, but people aren't stuck at bosses that have long been forgotten by Azshara's farmers. It's not like these recent nerfs will push people from Ashvane to Azshara - even if they manage to reach 6/8, Za'qul will crush them.

That's not even getting into stuff like, once again, one of bosses being extremely melee unfriendly, which should have been fixed much earlier. And their brilliant fix is -5% hp. Fuck yeah, eight melee it is. (and guilds at this level don't have the luxury of ranged alts)

The reason they didn't roll nerfs out much faster in EP is because pretty much all of the bosses are greatly nerfed by gear (more so than other tiers tbh.)

I think they should have nerfed orgo/QC faster tbh, but the reality is guilds incapable of killing orgo/QC pre-nerf would have never got za'qul. Then they would be complaining about za'qul on the forums.

[msdos]

I don't think the top 200 and Mythic raiders care if anyone else plays this game but their own 20 man. That's their attitude.

The proof is in the pudding too. The game just gets less and less massively multiplayer as people are continuously corralled into instanced 5 mans, 3 mans if you count arena and islands.

Step out of your elite echo chamber and realize what this game will be if only your elite 20 plays it. It'll be a barren wasteland dumpster fire of bad graphics and repetitive APM key mashing to basically algebraic simon says (stand in this, do not stand in this, now do this, now do that in this sequence or you die!) mechanics.

Wow, more "soak this bullshit" mechanics for the 20th raid. Wow!!!!!!!!!! And now you only have 0.45 seconds to soak them this time, rather than the last expansion which was 0.75 seconds! Whoa. DPS checks will be even tighter! Now if you have a single bad in your guild they will wanna hate life and you will be forced into a tough position! Radical bro!!!! What a great "game" you have here lmao.

[Zeta333]

The ICC buff was good
stacking buff that made life a bit easier for those of us who arent as good or dont have the time and it could be turned off for those 'we are too leet to use the buff' idiots

Would enjoy seeing this used a bit more often

You saw the fight in other difficulties. If you dont have time to raid you dont have time to do it. You shouldnt be handed mythic/ back then HM kills due to less skilled people.

[Gaidax]

I think some people are feeling a bit too entitled to be able to down mythic raids just after killing first couple of loot penyatas out there.

Killing M.Ashvane does not mean you are automatically entitled to get Azshara on silver platter or some such.

At this point Orgozoa and Court are nothing to fret about, simply with gear. Zaqul is a joke now, where you almost get to burn him and ignore half of the mechanics there, simply because you can just dps him down last phase, while ignoring almost everything else.

[Sageless]

The reason they didn't roll nerfs out much faster in EP is because pretty much all of the bosses are greatly nerfed by gear (more so than other tiers tbh.)

You do realize that due to benthic, azerite, sockets and mythic+ gear, the difference between the guild that downed bosses first and guilds that down them 2 months later is less than 5 ilvls and probably even less if looking at optimized gear (aka sockets). So while in theory bosses could be greatly nerfed by gear, there really wasn't any gear to nerf them.

But yeah, tuning was off this raid. Both initial tuning and subsequent re-tuning. For the 1000+ guilds that were 3/8 mythic after 2 or 3 weeks and then hit brick walls the nerfs to subsequent bosses were too late. And unless there is a soft nerf in Nyalotha to encourage this group of players, I guess there will be a lot of raiders taking a hiatus 1 month after Nyalotha.

[asil]

I don't think the top 200 and Mythic raiders care if anyone else plays this game but their own 20 man. That's their attitude.

The proof is in the pudding too. The game just gets less and less massively multiplayer as people are continuously corralled into instanced 5 mans, 3 mans if you count arena and islands.

Step out of your elite echo chamber and realize what this game will be if only your elite 20 plays it. It'll be a barren wasteland dumpster fire of bad graphics and repetitive APM key mashing to basically algebraic simon says (stand in this, do not stand in this, now do this, now do that in this sequence or you die!) mechanics.

Wow, more "soak this bullshit" mechanics for the 20th raid. Wow!!!!!!!!!! And now you only have 0.45 seconds to soak them this time, rather than the last expansion which was 0.75 seconds! Whoa. DPS checks will be even tighter! Now if you have a single bad in your guild they will wanna hate life and you will be forced into a tough position! Radical bro!!!! What a great "game" you have here lmao.

Really weird, because we have a guy in my guild we've been unable to replace that does tank level dps and raidlogs/has a 65 neck and we got CE with him in the raid.

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You do realize that due to benthic, azerite, sockets and mythic+ gear, the difference between the guild that downed bosses first and guilds that down them 2 months later is less than 5 ilvls and probably even less if looking at optimized gear (aka sockets). So while in theory bosses could be greatly nerfed by gear, there really wasn't any gear to nerf them.

But yeah, tuning was off this raid. Both initial tuning and subsequent re-tuning. For the 1000+ guilds that were 3/8 mythic after 2 or 3 weeks and then hit brick walls the nerfs to subsequent bosses were too late. And unless there is a soft nerf in Nyalotha to encourage this group of players, I guess there will be a lot of raiders taking a hiatus 1 month after Nyalotha.

I think the gear gap is bigger than that. Getting an extra essence alone was a massive nerf to bosses like ashvane for example. The problem is a lot of lower end raiders seemingly weren't even aware of benthic gear.

I helped out a fairly casual guild that was 5/8 mythic on my alt a few weeks ago and almost nobody in the raid had benthic gear on.

[KaPe]

I think the gear gap is bigger than that. Getting an extra essence alone was a massive nerf to bosses like ashvane for example. The problem is a lot of lower end raiders seemingly weren't even aware of benthic gear.

I helped out a fairly casual guild that was 5/8 mythic on my alt a few weeks ago and almost nobody in the raid had benthic gear on.

Extra essence slot is nothing when compared to the power boost we had in Legion. Between extra artifact traits and Netherlight Crucible, we have gained far more than single essence - especially since getting 65 early required a decent amount of grinding.

It all started with Titanforging anyway - heroic splits could give top guilds a decent amount of Mythic level gear, making them more valuable than ever before. Obviously this means they start Mythic progress with better gear than they used to - especially when we add to this titanforged BoEs they can snatch from AHs, hilariously overpowered benthic gear or class stacking that's way beyond normal gear. This makes the usual gear farming far less impactful than it used to be, nowhere near the 15ilvl difference of the past.

Considering all that, the amount of nerfs is miniscule and they come pretty late. Releasing the last (and probably final) batch just before Christmas is just silly.

[potis]

Killing M.Ashvane does not mean you are automatically entitled to get Azshara on silver platter or some such.

But their mentality does, because they were cockblocked by her DPS/HPS checks so much, they think finally getting over her is a major goal or something.

EP is just tuned slightly higher than it should, or its tuned wrongly again, the difficulty is all over the place once more so when people get cockblocked multiple times in a row, they react badly.

[asil]

Extra essence slot is nothing when compared to the power boost we had in Legion. Between extra artifact traits and Netherlight Crucible, we have gained far more than single essence - especially since getting 65 early required a decent amount of grinding.

It all started with Titanforging anyway - heroic splits could give top guilds a decent amount of Mythic level gear, making them more valuable than ever before. Obviously this means they start Mythic progress with better gear than they used to - especially when we add to this titanforged BoEs they can snatch from AHs, hilariously overpowered benthic gear or class stacking that's way beyond normal gear. This makes the usual gear farming far less impactful than it used to be, nowhere near the 15ilvl difference of the past.

Considering all that, the amount of nerfs is miniscule and they come pretty late. Releasing the last (and probably final) batch just before Christmas is just silly.

I honestly think the only boss that needed nerfed much quicker was queen's court. That boss was actually just over-turned in terms of damage requirements. My guild has had the fight on farm for months and we were cutting it close to enrage on rekills due to our raid comp just not being good for the fight.

Orgo is less so a problem of requirements and more so the same problem that exists on every boss with a large number of adds. People at lower levels do not understand they are really single target fights and try to pad on the adds the entire fight thus greatly reducing boss damage, thus making the fight much harder.

For example - that casual guild I helped like half the raid was trying to run focusing iris. There's no amount of reasonable nerfs blizzard can put in place to fix that, because it's not a game issue, it's a "I've put literally no thought into this" problem.

We saw this same issue on mistress in TOS as well.

This is why so many low-end guilds have healing/dps problems on orgo. They pad adds, end up not pushing the boss out of P1 in a reasonable time, healing requirements skyrocket and it's too much for these players.

[vsb]

You do realize that due to benthic, azerite, sockets and mythic+ gear, the difference between the guild that downed bosses first and guilds that down them 2 months later is less than 5 ilvls and probably even less if looking at optimized gear (aka sockets). So while in theory bosses could be greatly nerfed by gear, there really wasn't any gear to nerf them.

But yeah, tuning was off this raid. Both initial tuning and subsequent re-tuning. For the 1000+ guilds that were 3/8 mythic after 2 or 3 weeks and then hit brick walls the nerfs to subsequent bosses were too late. And unless there is a soft nerf in Nyalotha to encourage this group of players, I guess there will be a lot of raiders taking a hiatus 1 month after Nyalotha.

I don't want to farm benthic gear. I'm raid logging and that's all effort I'm ready to apply. I'm playing WoW for raids and story. Daily quests or mindless farm is outside of my interests.

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So you want the best gear in the game but you don't actually want to earn it?

Spending 9 hours a week should be enough to get the best gear in the game.