Mythic is too tight, guilds are dying

[Nefarious Tea]

good thing you get every one listed by just playing the game.

Not even close to true, but keep telling yourself that.

[Kaver]

good thing you get every one listed by just playing the game.

It's fair enough if you think we should do all the content on every character. I don't. We got different oppinions. I have completed all the content on one character and I don't want to do it again in order to have alts for mythic raiding or high m+ keys. That's my opinion, so right now I don't really have alts. I hope that Blizzard changes it.

[123youshowme]

Not even close to true, but keep telling yourself that.

You get conflict and strife from doing arena
you get blood of the enemy from battlegrounds
you get focusing iris from pvping
you get condensed life force from the raid

how is pvp and group pve not "just playing the game" ?

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It's fair enough if you think we should do all the content on every character. I don't. We got different oppinions. I have completed all the content on one character and I don't want to do it again in order to have alts for mythic raiding or high m+ keys. That's my opinion, so right now I don't really have alts. I hope that Blizzard changes it.

You can get 3 from just doing dungeons and raids, like... what do you do on your chars?

if you don't do any content that grants you AP, don't do keys, don't raid, don't pvp, what do you even need essences for? To.... pet battle?

Literally every area of end-game content provides you with at least one essence.

[leorana]

You get conflict and strife from doing arena
you get blood of the enemy from battlegrounds
you get focusing iris from pvping
you get condensed life force from the raid

how is pvp and group pve not "just playing the game" ?

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You can get 3 from just doing dungeons and raids, like... what do you do on your chars?

if you don't do any content that grants you AP, don't do keys, don't raid, don't pvp, what do you even need essences for? To.... pet battle?

Literally every area of end-game content provides you with at least one essence.

This is not "just playing the game". In fact, you gave an example where you HAVE to do PvP in order to get a PvE mandatory essence. These are different aspects of the game that souldn't mix. Same way you don't ask "link gladiator" when advertising for raid PuG.

What if they attached BiS tank essence into pet battles? how's doing pet battles makes you a worthier or better raider?

You realy need to stop pretending there is no grind. Even Top ranked guilds complained how they are "FORCED" farming for herbs for consumables which takes off of their raiding time and adds to the burnout.

[Kaver]

You can get 3 from just doing dungeons and raids, like... what do you do on your chars?

if you don't do any content that grants you AP, don't do keys, don't raid, don't pvp, what do you even need essences for? To.... pet battle?

Literally every area of end-game content provides you with at least one essence.

On my main I have done all content. Mythic raiding, +20 keystones, arena etc.

However, if I make an alt just to push high keys in m+ then I would like avoid having to do Arenas and Battlegrounds on that alt. I don’t want to do every type of content on all characters. And in general I don’t like pvp very much. But on a Rogue for example you should have BotE and CaS to push high keys. Playing semi-good characters are not fun in my opinion.

[123youshowme]

On my main I have done all content. Mythic raiding, +20 keystones, arena etc.

However, if I make an alt just to push high keys in m+ then I would like avoid having to do Arenas and Battlegrounds on that alt. I don’t want to do every type of content on all characters. And in general I don’t like pvp very much. But on a Rogue for example you should have BotE and CaS to push high keys. Playing semi-good characters are not fun in my opinion.

then you wouldn't have ever been able to play the game

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This is not "just playing the game". In fact, you gave an example where you HAVE to do PvP in order to get a PvE mandatory essence. These are different aspects of the game that souldn't mix. Same way you don't ask "link gladiator" when advertising for raid PuG.

What if they attached BiS tank essence into pet battles? how's doing pet battles makes you a worthier or better raider?

You realy need to stop pretending there is no grind. Even Top ranked guilds complained how they are "FORCED" farming for herbs for consumables which takes off of their raiding time and adds to the burnout.

You literally don't need c&s or bote for raiding. It's a nice minor for like 4 classes, but to cry forced?

Lmao


HOW THE FUCK IS PLAYING THE GAME TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR?

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Anyway, you see the kinds of players complaining about mythic being too tight. The kinds that cba to farm focusing iris.

[Kaver]

then you wouldn't have ever been able to play the game

That’s not entirely true. Also in my opinion, what have happened in the past is irrelevant for how the future should be (to a certain degree).

But this is also just my opinion. I would like to pretty easily gear up alts and start doing the content I enjoy without having to do content I don’t enjoy and without being crippled because of that. When I have done all content on my main then I think it is fair that I don’t have to do it all again on my alts. In general I want to do content that I enjoy.

For me that is the perfect scenario. You might not agree and that is okay.

[123youshowme]

That’s not entirely true. Also in my opinion, what have happened in the past is irrelevant for how the future should be (to a certain degree).

But this is also just my opinion. I would like to pretty easily gear up alts and start doing the content I enjoy without having to do content I don’t enjoy and without being crippled because of that. When I have done all content on my main then I think it is fair that I don’t have to do it all again on my alts. In general I want to do content that I enjoy.

For me that is the perfect scenario. You might not agree and that is okay.

Maybe soon you'll figure out that this aint the game for that, then

[Argorwal]

That’s not entirely true. Also in my opinion, what have happened in the past is irrelevant for how the future should be (to a certain degree).

But this is also just my opinion. I would like to pretty easily gear up alts and start doing the content I enjoy without having to do content I don’t enjoy and without being crippled because of that. When I have done all content on my main then I think it is fair that I don’t have to do it all again on my alts. In general I want to do content that I enjoy.

For me that is the perfect scenario. You might not agree and that is okay.

And here I am thinking about how every alt in classic I’ll need to grind AV exalted .

[Kaver]

Maybe soon you'll figure out that this aint the game for that, then

I hope that it will be. Things change sometimes. Right now I only play my main and I have a lot of fun doing mythic raiding and high keys. But if they change the game a bit I would also start to play some alts and I would even play the game more in total. I’m allowed to hope.

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And here I am thinking about how every alt in classic I’ll need to grind AV exalted .

That’s a different story

[Truemagic]

I feel attacked.

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I don't think you realize the negative effect of that highest difficulty content on those who can't do it.

You're so wrong here.... I remember playing in BC and there were TONS of guilds that wiped in Kara every week and still kept playing. So many people NEVER stepped foot in sunwell because they just weren't good enough, but they still loved the game. Same thing happened in wrath with the heroic raids and challenge modes. These expansions still had DRASTICALLY higher sub counts in a time where video games (even more-so PC gaming) was not even close to as popular as it is now.

The numbers speak for themselves, adding easy to clear content has lowered blizzards sub numbers. Adding endless grinds has lowered their sub numbers. Adding RNG loot boxes and horse shit titanforging has lowered their sub numbers. Removing vendors has lowered their sub numbers.

Blizzard likes to blame external reasons for their game being dead but classic has proved the game is dead because its absolute trash, nothing more. BFA is an absolute dumpster fire and if Blizzard doesn't make drastic changes to their dev team, it won't get any better.

[JustForThisThread]

ahhhh you want to put in absolutely no time and get carried, I getcha.

I only raid two nights a week and certainly feel like I don't get carried.. In fact I've said in this thread I don't like nerfs, I don't want nerfs, I like the challenge of mythic as is, and think if you can't clear it, you should get CE. So, not sure what you mean?

[KaPe]

You're so wrong here.... I remember playing in BC and there were TONS of guilds that wiped in Kara every week and still kept playing. So many people NEVER stepped foot in sunwell because they just weren't good enough, but they still loved the game. Same thing happened in wrath with the heroic raids and challenge modes. These expansions still had DRASTICALLY higher sub counts in a time where video games (even more-so PC gaming) was not even close to as popular as it is now.

The numbers speak for themselves, adding easy to clear content has lowered blizzards sub numbers. Adding endless grinds has lowered their sub numbers. Adding RNG loot boxes and horse shit titanforging has lowered their sub numbers. Removing vendors has lowered their sub numbers.

Blizzard likes to blame external reasons for their game being dead but classic has proved the game is dead because its absolute trash, nothing more. BFA is an absolute dumpster fire and if Blizzard doesn't make drastic changes to their dev team, it won't get any better.

People did Karazhan because it eventually became "easy to do content" that awarded badges for superior loot. They didn't stay there simply because it was so amazing that they didn't need anything else. Furthermore, plenty of guilds were stuck, because poaching was rampant. Anytime someone got geared and/or attuned, they'd be stolen by a more progressed guild, putting their former one back at square one.

No one knows which specific changes affected subscriptions. Raiding was never so popular that it decided game's population on its' own. Hell, considering that Cataclysm marked first major dropdown, we could say that people quite liked their "easy to clear content" back in Wrath and despised much harder heroic dungeons in 4.0. But that wouldn't quite fit the narrative, eh?

I mean, Blizzard themselves said that Sunwell was barely seen by people and it marked the change in difficulty of the content. Both it and Naxx were far too exclusive for their own good. By your logic, Classic should have completely annihilated Retail, since it had none of the flaws of later expansions. Somehow, that didn't happen.

[Krille]

People did Karazhan because it eventually became "easy to do content" that awarded badges for superior loot. They didn't stay there simply because it was so amazing that they didn't need anything else. Furthermore, plenty of guilds were stuck, because poaching was rampant. Anytime someone got geared and/or attuned, they'd be stolen by a more progressed guild, putting their former one back at square one.

No one knows which specific changes affected subscriptions. Raiding was never so popular that it decided game's population on its' own. Hell, considering that Cataclysm marked first major dropdown, we could say that people quite liked their "easy to clear content" back in Wrath and despised much harder heroic dungeons in 4.0. But that wouldn't quite fit the narrative, eh?

I mean, Blizzard themselves said that Sunwell was barely seen by people and it marked the change in difficulty of the content. Both it and Naxx were far too exclusive for their own good. By your logic, Classic should have completely annihilated Retail, since it had none of the flaws of later expansions. Somehow, that didn't happen.

Talk about missing the point. I was a casual back in those days and didnt raid, but i played the game all the time anyway because it was fun. Just doing random shit like duelling outside SW/Org, playing bgs for pvp gear etc. We did raid Karazhan but felt it was enough for us, only ever set foot in BT after the big nerfs before wrath. Never felt like it was unfair that we didnt get to do it, mostly looked up to the guys that did.

[Popastique]

Of course it is constructive to use > 500. Like, there is literally no point in using top < 500 guilds because scene and most people that are in tough spot is exactly 500-2000.

You say bunch of useless stuff completely ignoring the whole point. Its not about decision making blabla, it is purely because people quit mid raid progression because they are burned out.
And from my experience it looks like it is tied to time it takes to clear raid tier.

You are not getting strongly committed players in top > 500. You get average raiders. Still average raider is players doing 60-80 performance. Just playing less.

There is literally no point in making mythic raids for entitled elitists.
And mind you, I've been in top ~200 guild. We had exact same issues in Legion and in BfA that guild just perished.
Joined them mid WoD, quit mid Legion. Since that time, squad changed so much, only 3 people from original one remained.

And now playing in top ~1000 guild, people just openly say they don't want to progress EP anymore (merged guilds 2 times during single raid tier).

People burning out is natural, you replace them and get new recruits. And if it is really tied to the time it takes to clear raid tier - means such people are not prepared for that difficulty, and rather spend that time kissing squirrels instead of improving their skill and SHORTENING that clear time. A crazy suggestion : spend less time on mythic raids ?

No one is making raids for entitled elitists, my friend and his guild are sitting at world 1100+ and they've been trying to kill Azshara for like a month now, extending their raid lockout each week. They clearly voice that the problem is not dificulty or gear, but their players.

P.S. Talk to your raiders, if they are tired of raids - change guild, end of story. It will only get worse in the next tier.

[GringoD]

Hang on... So your saying it's bad that the content specifically designed to be the harder, hardcore content can't simply be "yeeted" with players dying? Or that you can't bring players with slower reactions... T.. Then don't do the hardest content? Heroic is there for people that want to be able to kill bosses even if 1/3 of your raid dies.

Where's the nuance? Mythic is the harder content, sure, but it isn't exactly filled with 8 Azshara's to provide you with that hardcore asskicking you crave. That's because there's supposed to be a curve here. I already can kill the first three bosses with a third of my raid dead. Why do you even think it's acceptable to go from that to call a wipe on Ashvane if anybody dies before the final burst phase? Blizz screwed it up.

Surely, if anything your complaint should be heroic is to easy? Heroic is the content designed for the type of guild it sounds like you have, and I do feel that at the moment the gap between heroic and mythic is to large but this is because Heroic should be made harder as currently there is no real content for guilds in that middle ground. But Mythic is exactly where it should be, the hardest content for people that want a challenge.

Even if heroic was harder, mythic would have to step up in turn or else we'd still be in there clearing up to Za'qul.
How is it that some people lack the mental capacity to grasp the concept of guilds raiding between heroic and CE?

[Popastique]

Where's the nuance? Mythic is the harder content, sure, but it isn't exactly filled with 8 Azshara's to provide you with that hardcore asskicking you crave. That's because there's supposed to be a curve here. I already can kill the first three bosses with a third of my raid dead. Why do you even think it's acceptable to go from that to call a wipe on Ashvane if anybody dies before the final burst phase? Blizz screwed it up.

Except you have combat res available, and besides: why do you even think it's acceptable to kill mythic bosses on progression with people screwing up and dying?
Blizzard didn't screw it up, your players did

[GringoD]

Except you have combat res available, and besides: why do you even think it's acceptable to kill mythic bosses on progression with people screwing up and dying?
Blizzard didn't screw it up, your players did

Above rez count, obviously.
Sounds like you have zero tolerance though. Maybe your guys should play without rez out of principle? It's not acceptable to kill if players screw up I guess.

[Ishayu]

Except you have combat res available, and besides: why do you even think it's acceptable to kill mythic bosses on progression with people screwing up and dying?
Blizzard didn't screw it up, your players did

"Screwing up" is a term with quite a bit of flexibility to it. Screwing up can mean anything from not doing 100% of possible damage and getting golden logs while dodging all mechanics down to standing inside a void zone for 10 seconds.

Ultimately, people are gonna make mistakes. Invariably. Everybody does it, whether large or small. Yes, even Method. Thousands of them every raid, too!

How many mistakes do you allow and how severe is the punishment for each mistake? Well that's what we call "difficulty".

And the point of this thread is that the difficulty is too high, i.e. the game punishes mistakes too hard in the hardest content, even in the opinion of people who think the hardest content should be extremely hard.

[Popastique]

Above rez count, obviously.
Sounds like you have zero tolerance though. Maybe your guys should play without rez out of principle? It's not acceptable to kill if players screw up I guess.

When people enter heroic raid, pull a boss, half of them die and the boss dies - i am ok with that. Same goes for normal and lfr. When people start dying on mythic until the boss reaches his final form/phase, and still kill it - either the boss has some unique mechanic that lets them do such things, the boss is undertuned, or it is an entrance boss of the raid - simple as that.

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"Screwing up" is a term with quite a bit of flexibility to it. Screwing up can mean anything from not doing 100% of possible damage and getting golden logs while dodging all mechanics down to standing inside a void zone for 10 seconds.

Ultimately, people are gonna make mistakes. Invariably. Everybody does it, whether large or small. Yes, even Method. Thousands of them every raid, too!

How many mistakes do you allow and how severe is the punishment for each mistake? Well that's what we call "difficulty".

And the point of this thread is that the difficulty is too high, i.e. the game punishes mistakes too hard in the hardest content, even in the opinion of people who think the hardest content should be extremely hard.

Except we are tackling the highest difficulty content available, and statistics shows that people manage to do that and the problem is present only for people who fail to fix their mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes - YES, the whole point of mythic raiding is overcoming those mistakes, fixing them and killing bosses.