How Long Until Pay To Win Happens?

[KaPe]

Certainly that doesn't qualify as P2W, but we are discussing the mythic raid/arena clears/mounts/gear that you can purchase with real money via token.

And you could always purchase them for ingame gold - if anything, it was easier to make gold thanks to garrisons/mission tables than spending real money for that purpose. You'll get a paltry amount of gear through BoEs and *maybe* some actual raid drops if you're lucky. Your character will still suck because it has no essences or benthics (soon to be replaced with legendary cloak, but it will be the same thing).

It's far too limited amount of power to count as an actual "pay to win". No matter how much money you'll spend, your character will be inferior unless you personally grind some things. Not exactly something a true whale would do.

[melodramocracy]

And what about people who made gold through AH? According to you, it's still "pay to win", even if developers have nothing to do with it. What about people who made millions thanks to garrisons/mission tables? Another "pay to win", once again has nothing to do with selling gold.

Hell, if anything, these options are more likely than people spending hundreds of dollars on tokens and then buying a boost.

What about those people? Are they generating their gold via in game methods, without an infusion along the way of actual dollars? If so, that's not even remotely close to a pay to win scenario.

What's likely or not is irrelevant to the argument.

[KrayZ33]

P2W usually always implies that you buy power from the company your game is from.
In WoW you are buying power from other players though, both in terms of gold AND in terms of boosts.

If you could buy ingame items in a shop with gold, I'd be more inclined to agree with that statement.
However, since you actually require other players to do it for you, I'm not. It's not P2W.

You are not buying currency for loot boxes that contain rare items.
You are buying currency, so that other people bother to do the difficult content for you.
If they can't do it, you won't get shite, if they can do it, you might as well do it yourself because it can't be that difficult - which means that you can't really buy "power" anyway.

[Different Strokes]

Maybe when WoW is below 1,000,000 active subs they'll start selling gear in the shop. Tends to happen when MMOs start to become smaller than subs can pay for development staff.

[Ihazpaws]

“In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics. ... A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is for payments to only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.”-Wikipedia definition.

If following this example, then WoW is not P2W as any non-paying player can get the same advantage as a paying one by simply playing the game. An example would be someone who buys gear that is not available to someone who doesn’t pay, such as gear being on an in game store. The only way to get said gear is to buy it.
That doesn’t hold true for in game gear.

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You can’t use this argument, because even if someone pays to be carried thru m+ nonstop for 5 hours a day they are still held to the exact same RNG as someone who runs m+ 5 hours a day that works for it and doesn’t get carried.
As stated in the definition, P2W doesn’t apply because of the exact same reasons you are trying to say shouldn’t matter. It does matter. You’re trying to argue that the ocean is blue.
WoW is not P2W except by the standards that people are trying to twist it to be that way. People are literally trying to change the term to apply where it doesn’t.

Person who pays with real money to get mythic raid done with all loot for himself every week will be geared in no time while non pay 2 win player has to start with greenies and spend multible months to be even able to join in a mythic raid group. That guy who bought his gear will dominate in pvp because he is way better geared and have time to play arena etc. Heck they can even buy to get boosted to the 2400+ rating as long as they know something about arena. While non pay to win player has to focus on getting that gear and have way less time to practice for pvp. Again Pay to win. How dense people can be and not see that... I literally have a friends who buy tokens to get gear. Their all alts are ready for raiding and arena in 1-2 weeks while I spend month or more to get same gear. And I have to play sooooooooo much more each day.

Then there is a achievements, people with tokens buy all the mounts, pets, glory of the... and so on what they need for achievements. While non pay to win players have to spend months for farming that money to get the mounts and pets etc. And again they need to get first geared to be able to even start with glory achievements.

WoW is pay to win. Activision-Blizzard is a moneywhore company nowadays. They still make good games and wow is good game even tho it is pay to win game.
It would be less pay to win if selling boosts would be not allowed. But well that is not gonna happen since those sellers are not breaking any laws.

The definition for pay to win is outdated and people who really think it's valid argument to say wow is not pay to win because you cannot buy the power from outside the game are just trying to defend pay to win mechanics. Which clearly shows how you like to play the games.

[Eapoe]

Person who pays with real money to get mythic raid done with all loot for himself every week will be geared in no time while non pay 2 win player has to start with greenies and spend multible months to be even able to join in a mythic raid group. That guy who bought his gear will dominate in pvp because he is way better geared and have time to play arena etc. Heck they can even buy to get boosted to the 2400+ rating as long as they know something about arena. While non pay to win player has to focus on getting that gear and have way less time to practice for pvp. Again Pay to win. How dense people can be and not see that... I literally have a friends who buy tokens to get gear. Their all alts are ready for raiding and arena in 1-2 weeks while I spend month or more to get same gear. And I have to play sooooooooo much more each day.

Then there is a achievements, people with tokens buy all the mounts, pets, glory of the... and so on what they need for achievements. While non pay to win players have to spend months for farming that money to get the mounts and pets etc. And again they need to get first geared to be able to even start with glory achievements.

WoW is pay to win. Activision-Blizzard is a moneywhore company nowadays. They still make good games and wow is good game even tho it is pay to win game.
It would be less pay to win if selling boosts would be not allowed. But well that is not gonna happen since those sellers are not breaking any laws.

The definition for pay to win is outdated and people who really think it's valid argument to say wow is not pay to win because you cannot buy the power from outside the game are just trying to defend pay to win mechanics. Which clearly shows how you like to play the games.

But again, it’s not. They are not getting an advantage over a non paying person. If player X wants to spend 200k gold/20-30$ a week + sub fee for a carry in a mythic raid while I pay nothing other than sub fee, that player has no advantage over me. They are subjected to the same loot distribution as I am. The fact that I have the same advantages as someone that pays instantly negates WoW as P2W, regardless of people who don’t apply themselves to be mythic raiders.
WoW, more specifically Blizzard, does not sell powerful items for real money in a cash shop that are not available in game that are clearly better than anything obtainable in game. That would be P2W. Paying to get carried thru m+ or mythic raids is not.
The fact people have the ability to get these same things, without paying real money, means it is not P2W.
The definition is not outdated, it’s just that people are trying to twist it to suit their needs in an attempt to make a point they are not correct about.

[Tumile]

If they go p2w in a sub based game they will be driving nails into the coffin lid, so I doubt they would be that stupid unless they're doing this some time before the stop developing/shut down WoW.

Most games either go P2P, F2P with MTX's, or Subscription based. Wow does all 3, heavily abusing MTX's aswell as launching frequent expansions. I used to think that if they went that route back with That Retarded Horse it would be the end, but look at us now, there is no end to what us idiots are willing to put up with.

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But again, it’s not. They are not getting an advantage over a non paying person. If player X wants to spend 200k gold/20-30$ a week + sub fee for a carry in a mythic raid while I pay nothing other than sub fee, that player has no advantage over me. They are subjected to the same loot distribution as I am. The fact that I have the same advantages as someone that pays instantly negates WoW as P2W, regardless of people who don’t apply themselves to be mythic raiders.
WoW, more specifically Blizzard, does not sell powerful items for real money in a cash shop that are not available in game that are clearly better than anything obtainable in game. That would be P2W. Paying to get carried thru m+ or mythic raids is not.
The fact people have the ability to get these same things, without paying real money, means it is not P2W.
The definition is not outdated, it’s just that people are trying to twist it to suit their needs in an attempt to make a point they are not correct about.

You do not seem to understand what Pay to win is friendo, Pay to win means that you are able to buy power in a game with real life currency. Not Exclusive power. Tokens + the rampant boosting communities is definitely indirect P2W.

personally it's how I've paid my sub since tokens were introduced, as well as expansions and other Battle.net games. so I'm cool with it, i get free stuff for next to no effort cuz some window licker is unable to do the most simple mechanics and clear the content himself.

[Flarelaine]

Is a store mount p2w because people admire me more? Or is it rather p2lose...because people who see me on a store mount think I am a pathetic shill?

I sure as hell wouldn't be caught dead on a store mount.

Even though some of them are pretty cool.

[Naramag]

I have a new rumor: WoW is already P2W. If you buy the longer subscription, the drop chances for better loot are higher. When you pay for half a year, you have a higher chance to better loot than those who pay monthly.

[Djuntas]

You are talking about achievements though, which is something that can be, more or less, guaranteed. Gold can get you a run, but it can't guarantee you any specific gear, or gear at all from said run.

What :P? Have you been living under a rock...They sell mythic/heroic "VIP" services where all gear is traded to you. I even had a Mechagon hard-mode run where I got all loot traded to me...I went up like 5-8 item levels early(ish) in 8.2

[Naiattavain]

As stated in Title. How long now until they offer official Box gear boost or the likes? "For 19.99 Get 450 Raid ready items" You need flask? For 5.99 get 200!

I for one hope it does not but if it does how far out do you think we are from this reality.

i wondered the same myself.. rofl none would ever show up to raid after that. lol

[Casperite]

-4 years, 255 days



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P2W is a mechanism created by the developer. P2W is not 3rd parties.

So token is still not P2W by your definition, as players you buy things from with gold are a third party. If Blizzard directly sold that gear from raid it would be P2W, by definition. This indirect token crap is BS. You've always been able to buy gold with money, Blizzard just made it safer from scams and such.

[Soon-TM]

I have a new rumor: WoW is already P2W. If you buy the longer subscription, the drop chances for better loot are higher. When you pay for half a year, you have a higher chance to better loot than those who pay monthly.

I know you are trying to be witty, but strawmen such as this are just sad.

[Kithelle]

Most games either go P2P, F2P with MTX's, or Subscription based. Wow does all 3, heavily abusing MTX's aswell as launching frequent expansions. I used to think that if they went that route back with That Retarded Horse it would be the end, but look at us now, there is no end to what us idiots are willing to put up with.

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You do not seem to understand what Pay to win is friendo, Pay to win means that you are able to buy power in a game with real life currency. Not Exclusive power. Tokens + the rampant boosting communities is definitely indirect P2W.

personally it's how I've paid my sub since tokens were introduced, as well as expansions and other Battle.net games. so I'm cool with it, i get free stuff for next to no effort cuz some window licker is unable to do the most simple mechanics and clear the content himself.

Umm...you do know FFXIV has a store too, but people never seem to complain about that. I wouldn't call it frequent expansions either

[Tumile]

Umm...you do know FFXIV has a store too, but people never seem to complain about that. I wouldn't call it frequent expansions either

lmao.

[bullseyed]

'forcing us to buy tokens' When did this happen?

I guess you're new to WoW and haven't seen any of the AH mount threads, here, on wowhead, on bliz forums, on discord...

[Bosen]

It'll never happen.

[pmkaboo]

Arent they selling gold? Cant you use gold to get flasks and gear?

[sam86]

the game is already p2w, p2w means u can get advantage by paying real life money instead of playing, the game already offer that
buy tokens, buy raid boosts, u get very good gear with zero effort, just login and afk follow (check in less than 2 hours to not lose ur gear)
ppl think that p2w has only 1 meaning : the only way to get best gear is by paying real life money, it isn't, the scenario i described that does happen quite frequently sadly in current wow give u a very good gear for zero effort
So how 'long' is -5 years, since wod was released in 2014 with its tokens and wow gold = real life cash thanks to that

[Beefhammer]

Most games either go P2P, F2P with MTX's, or Subscription based. Wow does all 3, heavily abusing MTX's aswell as launching frequent expansions. I used to think that if they went that route back with That Retarded Horse it would be the end, but look at us now, there is no end to what us idiots are willing to put up with.

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You do not seem to understand what Pay to win is friendo, Pay to win means that you are able to buy power in a game with real life currency. Not Exclusive power. Tokens + the rampant boosting communities is definitely indirect P2W.

personally it's how I've paid my sub since tokens were introduced, as well as expansions and other Battle.net games. so I'm cool with it, i get free stuff for next to no effort cuz some window licker is unable to do the most simple mechanics and clear the content himself.

P2W has always meant exclusive power. You spent real money to get power items that gave you specific advantages over those that did not spend money.

You do not seem to understand what a microtransaction is. WoW does not have microtransactions. They have macrotransactions. They are designed to be purchased once(outside of the token which is a way to curb the shady gold selling from, and to stop gold farmers and their shady practices. And in now way are they abusive. If they were they would not be account shared, requiring you to purchase them for every character you wanted to use them on. Not to mention they only ad on average 1.3 pets and 1.3 mounts to the store per year since it came out. I get not liking it, but it isn't abusive.

Also, do you post in the FF14 thread complaining about their store in a P2P game with heavily pushed MTXs? I just want to make sure you are consistent or just hating on Blizzard because reasons?

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wow has always been pay to win. You have to pay for a subscription and you can't win without one so....


/thread?

Thanks, now I need off clean coffee off my keyboard.