retail: subtlety rogues don't have any rep for class balancing.

[Naiattavain]

guys not sure what else to do seems blizzard is content with leaving subtlety rogues broken. the spec under performs in my mind. i should at least see 20% buffs to the spec. its just garbage to play on live now. another thing is that i don't see any subtlety rogues winning at all in the game. pvp were fucked and were fucked on pve as well. there is Zero rep coming from blizzard. sorry subtlety fans were left out in the cold again this time.

[Mirishka]

guys not sure what else to do seems blizzard is content with leaving subtlety rogues broken. the spec under performs in my mind. i should at least see 20% buffs to the spec. its just garbage to play on live now. another thing is that i don't see any subtlety rogues winning at all in the game. pvp were fucked and were fucked on pve as well. there is Zero rep coming from blizzard. sorry subtlety fans were left out in the cold again this time.

A great example of useless, overly emotional 'imma take this shit personally' feedback that doesn't accomplish anything. No data, no numbers, no logs, just a block of 'we r fucked spec is jus garbage blizz hates us' hyperbole.

You sound like they looked through your window, saw you playing a sub rogue, and decided "lol fuck this guy lets wreck his favorite spec."

[kevincuomo]

I mean to be fair they are complete garbage... then you have specs like Outlaw running wild just having a field day and resto druids just out classing every other healing spec by a long shot.. Seems so obvious they need adjusting but Blizzard has blinders on.

[Video Games]

A great example of useless, overly emotional 'imma take this shit personally' feedback that doesn't accomplish anything. No data, no numbers, no logs, just a block of 'we r fucked spec is jus garbage blizz hates us' hyperbole.

You sound like they looked through your window, saw you playing a sub rogue, and decided "lol fuck this guy lets wreck his favorite spec."

What logs?

[StillMcfuu]

guys not sure what else to do seems blizzard is content with leaving subtlety rogues broken. the spec under performs in my mind. i should at least see 20% buffs to the spec. its just garbage to play on live now. another thing is that i don't see any subtlety rogues winning at all in the game. pvp were fucked and were fucked on pve as well. there is Zero rep coming from blizzard. sorry subtlety fans were left out in the cold again this time.

Sub is weak, in the mythic progression sense of things. Otherwise it's pretty average.

Not every spec can be the top. I would say that sub isn't much fun to play currently. Next expansion is supposed to be bringing sweeping class changes, so maybe hold off on the pitchforks until next friday.

[Nathasil]

There is exactly nothing Sub can do better than the other two rogue specs (or other classes specs for that matter), on top of that the playstyle is convoluted, unforgiving and (in my oppinion!) unfun. The core abilities that Sub has (= Shadowdance) are nowhere near strong or good enough to outweight the incredible downturn when having to build CP with backstab in between.

For me personally having to built CP with backstab is the main reason i cannot stand playing this spec anymore. Backstab just feels shit. The sound is shit, the visual is shit and the gameplay is not great either.

On top of that, Sub has no visual or motive fluff to carry it. They are simply the "other dagger spec". Ninja? Fine, then give me a Ninja blade, please. That would at least look cool. But being an Assassination-Rogue who forgot to use poisons is just shit. Sorry.

[Pandragon]

As far as I know, Sub is the highest single target spec of the three spec, but only if you can stay on the boss 100% of the time. Any movement tanks the dps.

There is exactly nothing Sub can do better than the other two rogue specs (or other classes specs for that matter), on top of that the playstyle is convoluted, unforgiving and (in my oppinion!) unfun. The core, fundametal abilities that sub has (= Shadowdance) are nowhere near strong or good enough to outweight the incredibly downturn when standing there having to build CP with backstab.

On top of that, Sub has no visual or motive fluff to carry it. They are simply the "other dagger spec". Ninja? Fine, then give me a Ninja blade, please. That would at least look cool. But being a Assassination-Rogue who forgot to use poisons is just shit. Sorry.

It's this. I love sub, until I have to stand there spamming backstab. A huge problem with Sub too is that it's supposed to be a shadow class, but only 1 ability does shadow damage outside of a 3 minute cd. They need to make all of subs ability do shadow damage.

When they made Survival melee, I kept saying they should have made Sub a ranged spec embracing the "ninja" aspect. Using Shuriken as the combo point builder, giving it deadly throw(Shadow Throw maybe?), hell shadow dance could have been changed to be a melee to ranged style thing where the rogue zips between melee and ranged against the target and in random locations around the target unleashing attacks, just to mix things up. I don't know.

Hell they could even give sub a bow since rogues can use it anyways and just turn them into a Dark Ranger.

[Feali]

There are people actually playing Sub?

[shoegazing]

It's a good thing that Subtlety is tuned into the dirt currently, because balance is really the least of its problems. The spec was a masterpiece prior to the Legion redesign and they ruined the gameplay in every possible way that they could. The new animations and sounds are terrible, the new SpecFantasyTM is terrible, the new mechanics and gameplay are terrible. Subtlety feels nothing like a Rogue at all any more, and definitely nothing at all like the awesome gameplay that Subtlety used to have. It's dumbed down, pruned, oversimplified, and targeted for a completely different audience of players than those who are actually passionate about playing Subtlety Rogue. I can't overstate Blizzard's complete and abject failure in this case -- nothing they have done with the spec since Legion has been positive in any fashion and the spec is suffering from a critical crisis of identity.

So with all that in mind, it's good that it's tuned to a point where no one will play it. It means there is a glimmer of hope that they realize how badly they screwed this up and don't want anybody playing the spec until they revisit it in the next expansion. We can only hope.

If they have any sense at all, they'll revert Subtlety to how it was in patch 6.2.3, forget entirely that Legion/BFA ever happened and never talk about them again, and start iterating from that point.

[Feali]

It's a good thing that Subtlety is tuned into the dirt currently, because balance is really the least of its problems. The spec was a masterpiece prior to the Legion redesign and they ruined the gameplay in every possible way that they could. The new animations and sounds are terrible, the new SpecFantasyTM is terrible, the new mechanics and gameplay are terrible. Subtlety feels nothing like a Rogue at all any more, and definitely nothing at all like the awesome gameplay that Subtlety used to have. It's dumbed down, pruned, oversimplified, and targeted for a completely different audience of players than those who are actually passionate about playing Subtlety Rogue. I can't overstate Blizzard's complete and abject failure in this case -- nothing they have done with the spec since Legion has been positive in any fashion and the spec is suffering from a critical crisis of identity.

So with all that in mind, it's good that it's tuned to a point where no one will play it. It means there is a glimmer of hope that they realize how badly they screwed this up and don't want anybody playing the spec until they revisit it in the next expansion. We can only hope.

If they have any sense at all, they'll revert Subtlety to how it was in patch 6.2.3, forget entirely that Legion/BFA ever happened and never talk about them again, and start iterating from that point.

God I hope you are right. I really miss playing Sub but it's just absolutely no fun at all right now. Can't look at Troll the Bones anymore

[Kaver]

A great example of useless, overly emotional 'imma take this shit personally' feedback that doesn't accomplish anything. No data, no numbers, no logs, just a block of 'we r fucked spec is jus garbage blizz hates us' hyperbole.

You sound like they looked through your window, saw you playing a sub rogue, and decided "lol fuck this guy lets wreck his favorite spec."

A great example of a hunter coming into the another classes forum and talks about something the huntard knows nothing about. Subtlety is mechanically broken and because of that it is by far the least played spec in the game. Go back to your brainless BM hunter and stop bothering us.

[Mirishka]

A great example of a hunter coming into the another classes forum and talks about something the huntard knows nothing about. Subtlety is mechanically broken and because of that it is by far the least played spec in the game. Go back to your brainless BM hunter and stop bothering us.

My main's a prot warrior, actually, but I'm used to people who talk out of the wrong end of their bodies around here.

[Polarthief]

Sub is weak, in the mythic progression sense of things. Otherwise it's pretty average.

Read: "This is why we can't have classes with more than 2 of the same exact role". One of the three specs in a pure Melee (Rogue) or pure Ranged (Mage/Warlock) will always be left behind. At least with Hunter you have 2 ranged 1 melee, but they're not too well balanced either. In essence, a pure usually has 2 specs *at best*.

This is why I honestly hope they, someday, fix pures to not be 3 DPS specs anymore. This has been and always will continue to be a major issue for Mage, Rogue, and Warlock, and for most other classes with 2 of the same DPS role (Hunter with 2 ranged and Warrior/Death Knight with 2 melee), I hope they balance and greatly differentiate between them more. Thankfully Outlaw and Assassination are both well represented since Outlaw is usually easy AoE but still does decent enough ST while Sin dominates ST but can be built for good AoE as well, but not all classes are so lucky.

TL;DR: This is a problem that goes well beyond just Sub and I hope they fix it in the future.

[Coldkil]

Just a small jumping in, discussing sub is fine, bashing other people is not.

[Varolyn]

Sub needs a huge revamp. The other two specs could use some changes too but there are huge fundamental flaws with the spec. Crappy burst, crappy AoE, boring stun bot in pvp, is not a threat to kill in pvp and so on. Even if Blizz tuned it’s numbers up it would just be a one trick pony like it was in 8.0.

[Kaver]

My main's a prot warrior, actually, but I'm used to people who talk out of the wrong end of their bodies around here.

I guess huntards can also play other classes these days.

Well, me talking out of the wrong end of my body is still waaay more productive then anything you have had to say.

You’re very busy on other classes forums then. Maybe you should talk about subjects which you actually know something about instead of making stupid comments about specs you don’t even play. Everyone who has played sub since Uldir knows that the spec is messed up. It’s not even about balance, the spec just don’t function right.

[shoegazing]

They need to revert Subtlety to how it was in WoD or earlier, and build on it from there. Every single thing they have done with the spec and Legion and BFA has been a mistake and there have been zero positives.

[Acolyyte]

guys not sure what else to do seems blizzard is content with leaving subtlety rogues broken. the spec under performs in my mind. i should at least see 20% buffs to the spec. its just garbage to play on live now. another thing is that i don't see any subtlety rogues winning at all in the game. pvp were fucked and were fucked on pve as well. there is Zero rep coming from blizzard. sorry subtlety fans were left out in the cold again this time.

Sub is amazing when played well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2e4lPgcr7k

[Gunrad]

Haha /10char

[Polarthief]

Sub is amazing when played well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2e4lPgcr7k

I so wish I was good at PvP to pull off shit like that. Sadly, I can only adequately play PvE because it's easymode.