Az's latest epic rant against Blizzard's new store mount

[Mendzia]

Imagine to be actually such a sheep to watch babyface unironically and agree with him.

I actually do watch and agree with him.

[Nnyco]

I actually do watch and agree with him.

My condolences?

[Mendzia]

My condolences?

Why? Do you choose what i should watch and agree with? Is your opinion the only true one?
I am just very sceptical about current game industry and how developers/publishers milk their playerbase in general and his point of view in this regard is very close to mine.

[infinitemeridian]

Oh look, a cynical youtube "critic" - haven't seen that before!

[Nnyco]

Why? Do you choose what i should watch and agree with? Is your opinion the only true one?
I am just very sceptical about current game industry and how developers/publishers milk their playerbase in general and his point of view in this regard is very close to mine.

So you are sceptical about industries that milk their playerbase, yet you watch a youtuber that milks his viewerbase with cynical baits and negativity.

[FelPlague]

So you are sceptical about industries that milk their playerbase, yet you watch a youtuber that milks his viewerbase with cynical baits and negativity.

Dude literally quit wow because he hated the game, but then lost all his veiwers so he came back to get more money.
its funny cause he did all the "why would i play a game i hate, i am gunna be the better man, wow is obvciously not the game it once was, and i dont think it ever will, so i quit."

but then came back cause he missed that sweet sweet youtube cash.

like its quite sad, usually at 20-60k per video, with every like 4-5 videos going up to 100k, then dropping wow and suddenly having a hard time getting a video over 10k.

god and going back to this reminds me of his "rip hayven games" video, where he ran adds and dont forget he once shat talked hayven, just like he did to ythisens when ythisens told him blizz cant just delete dislikes on youtube...

[Mendzia]

So you are sceptical about industries that milk their playerbase, yet you watch a youtuber that milks his viewerbase with cynical baits and negativity.

I do not pay for watch his vids. He has ZERO $$ from me.

but then came back cause he missed that sweet sweet youtube cash.

Hm.. screenshot of his vids from 2-3 years ago (i did not know about his existence back then) is slightly... misleading imho.

[Sharper13]

I do not pay for watch his vids. He has ZERO $$ from me.



Hm.. screenshot of his vids from 2-3 years ago (i did not know about his existence back then) is slightly... misleading imho.

Just see it for what it is - loads of non-related wow videos with 10k views, a single wow related video in the 60k range.

It helps to support the argument that he came back to increase revenue.

I don't care whether he did or not, as a disclaimer - just saying, this is supporting evidence. It's not THE evidence, but it's one piece I suppose.

[FelPlague]

I do not pay for watch his vids. He has ZERO $$ from me.



Hm.. screenshot of his vids from 2-3 years ago (i did not know about his existence back then) is slightly... misleading imho.

That is his period of when he left wow, I can show you what it was like on his wow content before he quit. You can see some of them in the bottom right. Just a min, away from my PC.

Also you do pay him. With your time
Time is money friend.
You pay him your time, which there is only so much of in your life.
And you couldnbe doing something that actually makes you money instead of watching him.

It's like when people say "I crafted this item for free" well no. You farmed the items to craft it. "Well impair nothing for it. So it's free" no, in that timenyou could have gathered mats and sold them for 50k. Do it actually cost you 50k.

In the time watching one of his 10 min vids you coulda worked a job and made 1 or 2$.
But ya didn't.




since coming back to wow he commonly gets 20k to 100k, sometimes more views. and they are pretty often.


Here is him just after his return to wow.

you can already see how bad his views were during his break above.

here is what his channel looked like before his break.



When he stopped doing wow content, he dropped A LOT and now he does "news" but its mostly blizzard stuff, like 50% blizzard stuff.


This one here was actually the one that finall made me stop watching him. a video where he complained the new infernal was worse then the old one cause "It is less fiery" my dude, seriously?


This is better then this in his eyes.

[Raelbo]

Why is it strange? Are you good at everything every human being can do? Different people have different skills and experience. I'm not trying to brag, but I'm 43 years old and have been gaming since I was...8? 9? Something like that. This is what I do. And not only do I just game, but I also immerse myself in the gaming news. I follow the industry. My job doesn't require a lot of mental attention, so I slap a bunch of youtube playlists chocked full of industry news and youtubers while I'm there. I clearly spend more time than I probably should on forums like this one.

While I won't deny that on paper you certainly seem to have a great "CV" for this sort of discussion, you should not presume that you're more qualified than others here. Let's face it, gaming forums are the traditional domain of nerds, so all the traits you've mentioned are not likely to be in short supply around here. Nor are people with high IQ, degrees in things like engineering and computer science etc (ie the kind of people who understand the technical challenges around designing, building, maintaining and running a system like WoW)

As you're aware, I have read a lot of what you have to say about WoW over the years. And you certainly do know a lot. I do enjoy debating with you because you do offer a lot of insights, you're generally willing go into detail, all the while remaining civil in spite of differences of opinion. But I also don't always agree with you, and there's a good reason for that. If I was to level one criticism, I'd say you tend to be so focussed on your own viewpoint that you're overly quick to dismiss/ignore what other people have to say. In so doing you're missing out on the opportunity to correct the inadequacies of your arguments.

I'm sorry, so what is good about a business model that includes a box price, plus subscription, AND a cash shop?

I would say that it is good because it allows individuals to customise their expenditure according their personal requirements. Make no mistake, WoW is an expensive game all told. But at the same time I do believe that it has a hell of lot to offer. So if you're the sort of player who engages with most of the content, I think it's a good value for money proposition. However if you only enjoy a fairly narrow segment of the game, it's a lot more pricey. So being able to opt out of some of the costs is great.

The shop, in particular, has drawn a lot of criticism over the years for "double dipping". But if you think about it pragmatically, what alternatives exist? WoW used to have a LOT more subscribers. The game needed to find a way to maintain its margins in spite of this. I am not even saying that I like the fact that such a big portion of what we pay Blizzard is purely for profit, simply that this is the reality of the world we live in - maintain profitability or die. In that context I am for the shop because it allows Blizzard to extract extra revenue from willing customers, without affecting the rest of us with higher subscriptions. And it's certainly far better to have the shop than to reduce costs (eg dev budget).

Then on top of that psychological manipulation via FOMO and other more traditional anti-consumer sales tricks.

You're using hyperbole. You make it sound as if the average WoW player is a helpless victim, unable to resist Blizzard's cunning methods to extract ridiculous amounts of money out of us.

How do you know my assessment of those bad things aren't a result of negative bias? You don't. It's my opinion based on my own personal experiences. You don't HAVE to trust anything I say at all! I'm simply telling you what I see, and what I believe that leads to. Do you REALLY want me to list every single thing I believe Blizzard has done in the past year that's shady or consumer-unfreindly? Have you not been following their actions at all? Living under the gaming equivalent of the proverbial rock?

No. What I asked you to do was explain what makes this particular promotion bad/shady/anti-consumer.

Why would I even expend such effort to collate and present all that information when chances are VERY good you won't be convinced anyway, and will very likely just brush it off. You've stated almost as much already. You've even implied that my opinion and arguments are just "circular logic".

Like I said above, that's not what I am asking you to do. In fact that is what I asked you not to do. You can present to me all the evidence in the world of Blizzard's "track record" of dubious and shady practices, even convincing me to see it that way. But that does not prove that this promotion is shady.

It goes back to what I said earlier: Performing the legendary feat of changing the mind of someone on the internet. Believe me or don't. Do what you want.

I have been pretty clear about what your argument is missing that would be required to convince me. You can't complain that I am impossible to convince if you're not even going to try to address that issue.

So, again, explain what makes this promotion shady/anti-consumer/whatever else you want to accuse it of being. That is all. I am not interested in hearing how you are some kind of authority on the subject, or how Blizzard's past actions dictate what this one is. All that does is suggests that you're afraid to answer the pertinent question for some reason.

[SirCowdog]

I'd say you tend to be so focussed on your own viewpoint that you're overly quick to dismiss/ignore what other people have to say. In so doing you're missing out on the opportunity to correct the inadequacies of your arguments.

That's called confidence.

It's not that I'm missing the opportunity to correct inadequencies in my arguments(because I do that on occasions). It's usually because i've considered what's being said and simply concluded that I don't agree with it.

Am I over-confident from time to time? Sure. I'm not perfect.

I would say that it is good because it allows individuals to customise their expenditure according their personal requirements. Make no mistake, WoW is an expensive game all told. But at the same time I do believe that it has a hell of lot to offer. So if you're the sort of player who engages with most of the content, I think it's a good value for money proposition. However if you only enjoy a fairly narrow segment of the game, it's a lot more pricey. So being able to opt out of some of the costs is great.

The shop, in particular, has drawn a lot of criticism over the years for "double dipping". But if you think about it pragmatically, what alternatives exist? WoW used to have a LOT more subscribers. The game needed to find a way to maintain its margins in spite of this. I am not even saying that I like the fact that such a big portion of what we pay Blizzard is purely for profit, simply that this is the reality of the world we live in - maintain profitability or die. In that context I am for the shop because it allows Blizzard to extract extra revenue from willing customers, without affecting the rest of us with higher subscriptions. And it's certainly far better to have the shop than to reduce costs (eg dev budget).

Ok...so here's my take on the situation you just described.

The value proposition IS very good. But is it good relative to what Blizzard has previously offered? Not in BfA it isn't, IMO. Not compared to better expansions such as Legion, MoP, or further back towards TBC and WotLK.

In short, it comes down to the fact that, yes, they do need to remain profitable. However, the way in which they go about that is not really all that great. That's the entire core of the disagreement we're having, I think. I'm simply not satisfied with shrugging my shoulders and just accepting whatever a gaming corporation decides to throw the consumer's way. That's how we get situations like EA and Battlefront 2. That's how we get mobile game predatory models.

How do they maintain the profit margins? Maybe by not firing a large portion of their QA employees, and maybe by having Bobby Kotic being 45th out of the top 100 overpaid CEOs in the world. Ya think?

You're using hyperbole. You make it sound as if the average WoW player is a helpless victim, unable to resist Blizzard's cunning methods to extract ridiculous amounts of money out of us.

We've been over this via the George Carlin quote. Operating on the scale that Blizzard does, yes, they're absolutely targeting the lower half of the average consumer. They're not targeting smart consumers, nor do I think smart consumers don't exist. But it's disingenuous to assume that ignorant/uninformed, or yes, even stupid consumers don't exist.

No. What I asked you to do was explain what makes this particular promotion bad/shady/anti-consumer.

It's a cash shop mount in a period of time where cash shop mounts have been more frequent than ever, used as a lever to promote the poor value prospect of a 6 month subscription during a period of time where it's known that there will be a content drought.

In other words, it's a clear attempt to get players to lock in their subscription during a time where that subscription will be less valuable than it normally would be. Yes, the mount adds some small value to that subscription.

And again, for like the 5th time: I've also already said that on its own it's an extremely minor point. It only really has weight when taken together with all of Blizzard's other actions, forming a pattern of behavior.

Like I said above, that's not what I am asking you to do. In fact that is what I asked you not to do. You can present to me all the evidence in the world of Blizzard's "track record" of dubious and shady practices, even convincing me to see it that way. But that does not prove that this promotion is shady.

See above.

Also, I don't believe that taking this promotion out of context and attempting to view it in a vacuum is a valid way of assessing it.

[Kralljin]

the 6-month bundle was a discount even without the mount so I took it.

As far as i know, a 6 month sub always has been 66€.
1 month is 13€.
3 month(s) is 12€.
6 months is 11€.

So yeah, you get a free mount if you plan to sub for 6 months anyway, but it's not really a discount for the sub itself.

That really depends on how you define "Pay to Win". Because some people regard being able to buy a battle pet from the store for $$ as Pay to Win. Personally I don't.

That solely depends on your stance towards Pet Battles.
If you don't care about them, you obviously don't care about that aspect.

Same goes for Mythic loot, if you're a person who has really stopped giving a shit about power progression within the game and mostly play it for the collectibles or just to play some RPG within the Warcraft universe, you might also not view as that bad.

Like, the fact that not everything is centered around power progression within the game anymore is a good hint that many people aren't as focused on that aspect anymore.

• If you want to win you have to pay
• If you don't pay, you won't win

Going by that definition, it wouldn't be pay to win to you if Blizzard sold Mythic Loot via the store, because you can also acquire it without paying an additional fee.
So, yeah, you are pro Loot via Store (or whatever you want to call it besides Pay to win).

At no point in the game's history have "shop items" been available in-game. Your assertion is irrational.

Considering the shop didn't exist, yeah, that resources most likely went into the base game.

I mean, seriously now, what basis is there for this fantasy that if Blizzard didn't get the extra revenue from the shop that they'd still spend just as much on development?

Ever done an investment : Reward calculation?

If you take a single mount (or the equivalent of how much hours went into it) from the base game and put it into the shop, would it bring more people to sub or people sub for a longer time, at a rate so that the increase in sub revenue is equivalent to selling it on the store?

Extremely unlikely, it's a pretty easy way to make money, you take a small chip off a huge chunk (and the production line on WoW is huge) and sell it for extra cash.
After all, do you think simply having that mount in the game from some activity would boost the subs in such a fashion that it will be at least equivalent to selling it for 25€?

If even less than 10.000 people buy that mount now or within the foreseeable future, we're talking about around 200k revenue.
Now deduct taxes (which isn't a huge factor for Blizzard according to some reports) and the production value (which won't even get close to 50k), you got some revenue.

Then be thankful that the game is being subsidised by shop revenue.

People accuse me of making things up, but it's seemingly allowed when it works in Blizzards favor.

Given that they're a business out to make a lot of money, why hire those artists at all if there's no shop?

That assumption would only work if they actually hire new artist for it, which is entirely speculative on your part.
You yourself said, they are out to make a lot of money, so what's more profitable:

1.100% of all resources go into the base game
2.take 1% off those 100% and sell it for 25€

Would some people quit over not getting those 1%?
Unlikely, because most people wouldn't even notice that loss.

After all, proving that without Blizzards internal revenue calculation is impossible, but running some quick numbers shows how damn profitable it can be.
Going by that, it's extremely likely that they're doing it because, as you said it:

Given that they're a business out to make a lot of money

it's basically that they're spending less on development because they're bringing in more revenue.

First off, you got it backwards.
They're bringing in more revenue because they're spending less on development (of the base product).

Also, Re read that sentence again and replace that "because" with an "and".
And now ask yourself who would profit from that situation.

Spoiler: It's not the player

I mean, sure, by all means complain that they should sacrifice some profit in order to put more into development. But consider that's it a lot easier to do that if their profit is bigger to start with.

If there was any insurance that this money went actually into the game, of course.
But there is none, because they're a company, their goal is to achieve maximum profit at minimal cost.

The basic idea behind this thought is:
If we give Blizzard more money, we might get a better game.

But companies are pretty pragmatic on that front, they take the additional money without giving you any benefit.
Your view is extremely idealistic, but in reality, they just smell blood and start to push the small cuts until customers realize what's going on.

After all, as public traded company, having a bigger profit each year is existential to them.

Given that they obviously choose the option of greater profit, and that creating mounts and such costs money (and detracts from profits), it stands to reason that without the shop, they'll also choose to not create those mounts and such.

Again, that resource could very well present be at a different point in the game.
Artists aren't just mount creator machines.

How is getting a discount on your game time plus a free mount not getting the best for your money?

...i have explained it in multiple posts.
You are not the target audience of this offer, you are not the person where they are making a profit, you are a side benefactor, one that on top of that even goes around and defends this practice.

They are making a profit from the people who usually do not sub for 6 months, but are doing it now because of that offer.

Simple thought experiment:
You have 2 Millions subs.
One Million is perma subbed.
The other Million subs between 1-3 months, only resubs before / right after a major patch hit live servers.

You make that offer, those one million that are perma subbed are happy and go around and tell how amazing Blizzard is.
But you made 0€ off these people. Not good (for Blizzard).

Now, you take the other half, some of them, let's just say 500k of those people take the offer.
You now suddenly have turned 500k people that previously subbed for only 1-3 months (meaning only 13-36€ per person) into someone that gave you 66€.
That is your profit.

Is that mount worth the additional 3-5 months of sub?
It's not, those people would have even been off cheaper by just subbing like regular and buying the mount off the shop.
(Ignoring my disapproval of the store itself here).

If enough people that previously did not sub for 6 month take the offer, your profit for that offer explodes.
Considering that Blizzard made the same offer thrice during BfA (with each major patch) is a good hint that they are raking in a lot of money with that offer, without making the base product significantly more attractive.

And within that calculation, the people who just buy the mount from the shop after the offer is expired, aren't included.

Also, the way the shop works, I am getting more for my money because the shop essentially allows Blizzard to avoid subscription increases by passing the costs onto willing payers (ie not me).

Blizzard has laid off over 800 people last year, are now hiring a fraction off that back at a lower salary.
Blizzard has laid off hundreds of GM and whatnot over the course of the last decade and replaced them with automated systems.
Blizzard has improved their internal structure for a more efficient design and development process.

And presumably a lot of other measures that improved efficiency or cut costs at places that aren't as obvious.

An easy way to increase profit is to keep an existing service at the same price, while reducing the production cost in the back.

[SirCowdog]

An easy way to increase profit is to keep an existing service at the same price, while reducing the production cost in the back.

Just wanted to thank you for making this points. I've been trying to think of how to articulate them for awhile, but I've been involved in too many discussions across too many platforms to focus well enough. And you likely did it much better than I could have, anyway.

[rrayy]

For some maybe, when the first 6 month mount was released I had over 4 years game time remaining. I didn't get it retroactively. I've had years of game time for every one of these 6 month mount offers and I've never gotten any of them.

Th is because you likely never purchased an actual 6 month subscription and instead bought your sub time with gold Each of those tokens is a one month subscription.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as i know, a 6 month sub always has been 66€.
1 month is 13€.
3 month(s) is 12€.
6 months is 11€.

So yeah, you get a free mount if you plan to sub for 6 months anyway, but it's not really a discount for the sub itself.

Buying a 6 month subscription is cheaper than buying 6 1 months subsrciptions, so it is a discount

Considering the shop didn't exist, yeah, that resources most likely went into the base game.

Wrong. Those resources never existed before the shop.

The resources used for the cash shop were in ADDITION TO the resources for the bade game. They NEVER reallocated.

That assumption would only work if they actually hire new artist for it, which is entirely speculative on your part.
You yourself said, they are out to make a lot of money, so what's more profitable:

1.100% of all resources go into the base game
2.take 1% off those 100% and sell it for 25€

Would some people quit over not getting those 1%?
Unlikely, because most people wouldn't even notice that loss.

After all, proving that without Blizzards internal revenue calculation is impossible, but running some quick numbers shows how damn profitable it can be.

Again, they never reallocated, so your whole argument is null and void.

First off, you got it backwards.
They're bringing in more revenue because they're spending less on development (of the base product).

Also, Re read that sentence again and replace that "because" with an "and".
And now ask yourself who would profit from that situation.

Spoiler: It's not the player

Prove it. SHow us the numbers that prove they are spending less on development. I am very confident you are wrong.

Blizzard has laid off over 800 people last year, are now hiring a fraction off that back at a lower salary.
Blizzard has laid off hundreds of GM and whatnot over the course of the last decade and replaced them with automated systems.
Blizzard has improved their internal structure for a more efficient design and development process.

And presumably a lot of other measures that improved efficiency or cut costs at places that aren't as obvious.

An easy way to increase profit is to keep an existing service at the same price, while reducing the production cost in the back.

This is flat out wrong and compeltely dishonest. Blizzard has not laid off 800 people. Activision-Blizzard has and it stretches over ALL their IP's and the big portion is from Destiny 2. IN fact, they have hired MORE for WoW. But why let the facts get in the way of your false narrative.

[ONCHEhap]

truely ebic rant fellow gamers

Let's adopt the opinion of the youtube idiot because we don't have opinions of our own

[Kralljin]

Buying a 6 month subscription is cheaper than buying 6 1 months subsrciptions, so it is a discount

A discount that has always existed, so yeah, you still got only a free mount, no additional discount.

Wrong. Those resources never existed before the shop.
The resources used for the cash shop were in ADDITION TO the resources for the bade game. They NEVER reallocated.
Again, they never reallocated, so your whole argument is null and void.

[citiation needed]

Prove it. SHow us the numbers that prove they are spending less on development. I am very confident you are wrong.

Funny, the source that would proof that is the one you seemingly have, at least going by these comments above.
So yeah, show me that source.

This is flat out wrong and compeltely dishonest. Blizzard has not laid off 800 people. Activision-Blizzard has and it stretches over ALL their IP's and the big portion is from Destiny 2. IN fact, they have hired MORE for WoW. But why let the facts get in the way of your false narrative.

Yeah my bad, but Blizzard still laid off people.

IN fact, they have hired MORE for WoW. But why let the facts get in the way of your false narrative.

They said "hire more developers", not "hired more WoW developers".
They could also work on unannounced titles.

[Kpmk]

Ignoring the content of the video, wow this guy is possibly the biggest loser I've ever watched

[rrayy]

A discount that has always existed, so yeah, you still got only a free mount, no additional discount.

Now youa re moving the goalposts. Yous siade you don't get any discount at all, which is false.



[QUOTE=Kralljin;52047160][citiation needed][quote]Actually, you are the one who need to provide a citiation as you are the one who made the inital claim. So Give me a citation to prove your claim.

Funny, the source that would proof that is the one you seemingly have, at least going by these comments above.
So yeah, show me that source.

SO, you don't have one and you made it up. Got it. YOu made the initial claim. Now prove it.

Yeah my bad, but Blizzard still laid off people.

It's a huge bad and a disingenuous one because you tried to make it seem like they were all laid off from WoW. They weren't and WoW had a very little portion of those

They said "hire more developers", not "hired more WoW developers".
They could also work on unannounced titles.

They quite literally said they were hiring and investing more in WoW. But why let those fats get in the way of your false narrative.

- - - Updated - - -

truely ebic rant fellow gamers

Let's adopt the opinion of the youtube idiot because we don't have opinions of our own

Technically, they aren't adopting the opinion of the youtube guy becauser it was their own opinion to begin with. They wre trying to use the opinion of the youtube guy to validate their identical opinion as fact.

[justflayin]

Ignoring the content of the video, wow this guy is possibly the biggest loser I've ever watched

The intro was beyond cringe. couldn't get past it.

[Kralljin]

Now youa re moving the goalposts. Yous siade you don't get any discount at all, which is false.

It really gets tiring to argue with you people over sematics.

I said:

So yeah, you get a free mount if you plan to sub for 6 months anyway, but it's not really a discount for the sub itself.

If you want a 6 month sub, it's the same price between the regular offer and the current one, so there's no difference between taking the offer and the regular 6 month sub as far as the price is concerned.

I mean c'mon, this is just arguing for the sake of it, the numbers are even in my post.

11€*6 = 66€, which incidentally is the price of the offer.

SO, you don't have one and you made it up. Got it. YOu made the initial claim. Now prove it.

Here's the thing, i never claimed to have a source.
Matter of fact, i even wrote:

After all, proving that without Blizzards internal revenue calculation is impossible, but running some quick numbers shows how damn profitable it can be.
Going by that, it's extremely likely that they're doing it because, as you said it:

So yeah, there's that, however, you then cannot turn around and post

Wrong. Those resources never existed before the shop.
The resources used for the cash shop were in ADDITION TO the resources for the bade game. They NEVER reallocated.
Again, they never reallocated, so your whole argument is null and void.

Because those are unfounded claims as well, you are just saying "you're wrong", that's it.
What's the source to prove me wrong on that...?

Yep, that's right, the internal revenue calculation of Blizzard.

The only factual claim you can make here is: You don't know.
To which i agree, i cannot prove that without any doubt, but that's the nature of the beast in business, companies keep these a pretty good secret, because they obviously don't want to their customers or competition to see how they calculate their prices or split their resources.

What i did here was simply applying the logic that multiple people have stated in this thread:
Blizzard is a company to make a lot of money.

Which of these options earns them more money?
The one where they take existing resources and sell it on the shop.

And if you still say "You can't prove that", then i will still agree, but then you should be honest enough and also say: I cannot prove the opposite.
Which means those three segments above are unfounded.

It's a huge bad and a disingenuous one because you tried to make it seem like they were all laid off from WoW. They weren't and WoW had a very little portion of those

No, context matters.
Layoffs are a part of business, a way to reduce production cost.

Please read the full paragraph, because the entire paragraph is about production cost reduction, nothing else.
It's just you now reading some subcontext into that isn't there.

They quite literally said they were hiring and investing more in WoW. But why let those fats get in the way of your false narrative.

Post the source where they said they want to invest more into WoW.