Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[Forogil]

There have been 37 incidents of blood clots out of 17million doses administered across Europe which, according the BBC, show 'there is no strong biological explanation why the vaccine would cause a blood clot.' and the WHO as well as the European and UK regulators have all said that there is no link between the clots and the vaccine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56360646

That does not accurately represent what EMA have stated.

On March 10 EMA released a press-release https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/co...h-used-austria indicating that there were no indication that the vaccine caused this side-effect; but they are still investigating it.

The three cases of health-care workers in Norway were reported on March 11, and they stated that EMA was going to investigate. (Ehmm.. Yes, it seems that Norway is partnered with EMA even though they are not part of EU.)

It may be something unrelated, it may be a bad batch, or it may be something related to vaccination, but not to the vaccine itself - e.g. problems with the new syringes.
It could, of course, also be sabotage.

What is more confusing is that there are now reports that a vaccinated person died of this in both Denmark (60-year old) and Norway (50 year old); I tried to see if the local news reported that:
Yes for Norway: https://www.nrk.no/norge/innlagt-hel...nen-1.15418283
Update, also yes for Denmark, it was just that it was reported March 11 in Denmark and Fox News reported it today: https://www.tv2lorry.dk/lorryland/un...ttes-paa-pause

Basically there's a real issue and also people trying to turn it into a political battle-field where facts don't matter; but only whether you are for or against the uk. (Both sides conveniently ignoring the fact that half of AstraZeneca is in EU and that the production of these batches were in the EU.)

In general finding issues with vaccines is problematic. The 2009 influenza vaccination caused narcolepsy among some young people in Finland and Sweden; and some are still arguing why - and there is no clear answer.

[shadowmouse]

On Friday, I got a community wide push notice that there would be free vaccination for anyone in the community. By Saturday there were fliers in the elevator and on our doors setting out a schedule for free busing over the next 21 days. As an expat, I'm not currently eligible for this this initial push, but will probably get mine after about a month.

[Yep, still in Beijing and it would be one of the Chinese vaccines.] Given that Beijing's population equals or comes close to that of some countries I'm rather impressed by the push.

Stay safe and good luck, y'all! Here's hoping things get better for everyone.

[Forogil]

HPV - recalled pre-emptively due to problems in production, no issues with vaccinations

It seemed it was recalled after some shots had been given, so "pre-emptively" is overstating it.

GBS - Suspected to cause a disorder, comprehensive review didn't find a link.

Actually some found a minor link (one in a million) for some flu-vaccines; and at such a level the vaccine was better than no vaccine (since flu itself increase the risk of GBS ten times more; and the flu also has other issues).

H1N1 - Eyyyy, the one most folks know about! And research didn't show any causal link between any of the vaccines and narcolepsy.

Studies in other countries didn't find it; but the causal effect seemed real in some countries; see e.g., https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314666/

Was it a bad batch of that particular vaccine? Adjuvant? In combination with some local genes, local food, or other local infections? Something else?

No-one knows for sure.

[Pann]

That does not accurately represent what EMA have stated.

On March 10 EMA released a press-release https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/co...h-used-austria indicating that there were no indication that the vaccine caused this side-effect; but they are still investigating it.

The three cases of health-care workers in Norway were reported on March 11, and they stated that EMA was going to investigate. (Ehmm.. Yes, it seems that Norway is partnered with EMA even though they are not part of EU.)

It may be something unrelated, it may be a bad batch, or it may be something related to vaccination, but not to the vaccine itself - e.g. problems with the new syringes.
It could, of course, also be sabotage.

What is more confusing is that there are now reports that a vaccinated person died of this in both Denmark (60-year old) and Norway (50 year old); I tried to see if the local news reported that:
Yes for Norway: https://www.nrk.no/norge/innlagt-hel...nen-1.15418283
Less clear for Denmark.

Basically there's a real issue and also people trying to turn it into a political battle-field where facts don't matter; but only whether you are for or against the uk. (Both sides conveniently ignoring the fact that half of AstraZeneca is in EU and that the production of these batches were in the EU.)

In general finding issues with vaccines is problematic. The 2009 influenza vaccination caused narcolepsy among some young people in Finland and Sweden; and some are still arguing why - and there is no clear answer.

Yes, it does. It even says so in the link you provided and in their subsequent release on 11/03.

"There is currently no indication that vaccination has caused these conditions, which are not listed as side effects with this vaccine."

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/co...cines-benefits

Anyway if you really have an issue with saying that there is "no link between the clots and the vaccine" I suggest you take it up with the BBC.

[Forogil]

Yes, it does. It even says so in the link you provided and in their subsequent release on 11/03.

No.

EMA is saying that they don't see a link between the vaccinations and the conditions (but they are investigating it).
You quoted BBC as stating that EMA says that there's no link between the vaccinations and the conditions.

Those two statements differ.

And EMA issued the statement before the Norwegian cases were reported.
WHO also issued their statement that no-one had died of the vaccine before the Norwegian death.

That makes a difference - since a new case could establish a link that wasn't found before, but cannot create that doesn't exist.

[Edge-]

It seemed it was recalled after some shots had been given, so "pre-emptively" is overstating it.

It's not, it was localized to a single batch and the batch was pre-emptively recalled.

Actually some found a minor link (one in a million) for some flu-vaccines; and at such a level the vaccine was better than no vaccine (since flu itself increase the risk of GBS ten times more; and the flu also has other issues).

Yes, but not the vaccine I was referencing, which was not a flu vaccine.

Studies in other countries didn't find it; but the causal effect seemed real in some countries; see e.g., https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3314666/

Was it a bad batch of that particular vaccine? Adjuvant? In combination with some local genes, local food, or other local infections? Something else?

No-one knows for sure.

That's correct, nobody knows. So blaming the vaccine is incorrect right now since they have yet to determine any causal links.

[Pann]

No.

EMA is saying that they don't see a link between the vaccinations and the conditions (but they are investigating it).
You quoted BBC as stating that EMA says that there's no link between the vaccinations and the conditions.

Those two statements differ.

And EMA issued the statement before the Norwegian cases were reported.
WHO also issued their statement that no-one had died of the vaccine before the Norwegian death.

That makes a difference - since a new case could establish a link that wasn't found before, but cannot create that doesn't exist.

As I said take it up with the BBC - stop bugging me - I'm sure they'll be extremely grateful for your input.

[Edge-]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...-era-guidance/

Weird, so a lot of the "guidance" over the past year in the US, at the federal level, was written by political hacks to downplay the risk of the virus and was not primarily authored by actual doctors/scientists/researchers.

Reminder, the US is still grappling with a Death Cult.

[Forogil]

It's not, it was localized to a single batch and the batch was pre-emptively recalled.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/co...ecall-faq.html

The batch was distributed August-October and recalled in December and people were told that if they were recently vaccinated that the vaccine had effect even if it could have caused adverse effects.

Yes, but not the vaccine I was referencing, which was not a flu vaccine.

Ah, that one. However, the flu-GBS vaccine issue still seems ongoing.
That the link between flu vaccines and GBS was detected in 1976 doesn't mean that it stopped after that.

That's correct, nobody knows. So blaming the vaccine is incorrect right now since they have yet to determine any causal links.

Are you trying to make people anti-vaxers?

If so you are doing a good job by saying that we haven't proven how the vaccination caused narcolepsy so therefore there is no link; despite studies finding both a causal link and tentative explanations - https://link.springer.com/article/10...910-018-0851-5

Conclusions
Several studies from different countries using alternative methods have confirmed the association between narcolepsy and Pandemrix vaccination.

- - - Updated - - -

As I said take it up with the BBC - stop bugging me - I'm sure they'll be extremely grateful for your input.

The BBC misrepresenting statements from EMA is one problem.

You not seeing the difference between BBC and EMA statements is another problem, that I cannot blame the BBC for.

[NED funded]

Wtf is going on in Europe?? Is the oxford vaccine that bad

[Gaidax]

I think it's important to take a chill pill on vaccine rush if there is actual a suspicion that merits investigation to the point where multiple countries decide to put a temporary pause on it.

In my opinion, ultimately, everyone who can - should take a jab, but there is no need to be fanatical about it either to the point you dismiss every concern ever. There is nothing wrong with having investigation take place when necessary.

It's not like everyone is rushing to dump these into garbage bin, a 2-3 weeks hold pending investigation is not the end of the world.

[Mayhem]

I won’t be taking that vaccine after reading a few articles on countries looking to suspend it because of blood-clotting concerns. So far the list of countries are Ireland, Denmark, Iceland, Austria, Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, Estonia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Latvia and Thailand.

Are you taking the pill?

[Mayhem]

Injection. I wasn’t aware of a pill form... or are you asking if I take the contraceptive pill? If so, no.

Was talking about contraceptives yes, the chance to get blood clot from the pill is 100x higher than from that vaccine.

[Mayhem]

I can’t take most contraceptives because I’m prone to aura migraines, which increases your chances of having a stroke.

But you do understand that no one is using that information to start a war against the pill and tell people how it's killing women? Especially since the pill is around for 60 years.

[StayTuned]

What a told you moment

Germany stops using AstraZeneca because of found connections to brain thrombosis. And that's not Bild, it's everyone reporting it.

Now also other countries want to investigate.

Come again and call me anti vaxx once more for demanding BionTech. Do it.

[Edge-]

What a told you moment

Germany stops using AstraZeneca because of found connections to brain thrombosis. And that's not Bild, it's everyone reporting it.

Now also other countries want to investigate.

Come again and call me anti vaxx once more for demanding BionTech. Do it.

Got a link for the connections? The latest I'm seeing everywhere is this - https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ve-updates-us/

Germany became the world’s largest country to suspend the use of AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine following reports of blood clots. The World Health Organization and European regulators have continued to express confidence in its safety.

Drugmaker AstraZeneca said late Sunday that there is no scientific evidence of any link between its coronavirus vaccine and recent deaths in Europe from blood clots. The European Medicines Agency released a statement Monday that said the frequency of clots after the vaccine is not higher than normal, but that its investigation will continue.

It's paused while it investigates, but nobody has found anything indicating these are caused by the vaccine from what I've seen.

[StayTuned]

Got a link for the connections? The latest I'm seeing everywhere is this - https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ve-updates-us/

It's paused while it investigates, but nobody has found anything indicating these are caused by the vaccine from what I've seen.

What do you think? That they randomly decided to stop the vaccinations because they think it's funny? WHO, EU regulators and the drugmaker can say what they want. Actually, they should shut the f up and start their investigation before commenting at all. But if you have such an increase in brain clots in the group of people who just recently got the vaccine, I stop believing that those are unrelated random events.

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/cor...hland-101.html

Gives a good summary but it's German.

So yes, there is no scientific evidence YET but causal connections seem to have been made. However rare it might be, now we have to understand what's causing it.

What a fucking stupid situation. BionTech is literally 20km away from where I live but I'm supposed to use a UK vaccine that isn't even cleared in Germany for people above 65 years of age.

Again, I don't understand how we got into this situation in Germany. We suck big time. No safe vaccine, no proper organization of appointments, no free testing, no strategy for anything. I feel like we're being sold to the lowest bidder.

This incompetency is driving me insane.

[Edge-]

What do you think? That they randomly decided to stop the vaccinations because they think it's funny? WHO, EU regulators and the drugmaker can say what they want. Actually, they should shut the f up and start their investigation before commenting at all. But if you have such an increase in brain clots in the group of people who just recently got the vaccine, I stop believing that those are unrelated random events.

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/cor...hland-101.html

Gives a good summary but it's German.

So yes, there is no scientific evidence YET but causal connections seem to have been made. However rare it might be, now we have to understand what's causing it.

What a fucking stupid situation. BionTech is literally 20km away from where I live but I'm supposed to use a UK vaccine that isn't even cleared in Germany for people above 65 years of age.

Again, I don't understand how we got into this situation in Germany. We suck big time. No safe vaccine, no proper organization of appointments, no free testing, no strategy for anything. I feel like we're being sold to the lowest bidder.

This incompetency is driving me insane.

No, because there are unverified reports and they're acting in an abundance of caution which happens whenever there's anything unexplained like this.

You said there had been a connection found, there has not. Right now there's a potential causal link, but absent any way to verify it right now it's a potential side-effect. It's not due to any apparent failures, it's simply a concerning event that's causing countries in Europe to respond with caution.

In some good personal news, apparently my minor autoimmune disease (rheumatoid arthritis) kicks me into a higher risk group so I'm up for the vaccine "soon". Still feel kinda guilty for que jumping since I'm otherwise safe (work from home, minimal contact with others outside of my soon to be vaccinated brother who is serving rich people at his restaurant), but if my doctor/hospital network is telling me I should get it sooner I'm not gonna argue.

[Easo]

All I will say is "Faking AZ!". No, not because of the supposed blood clot issue being widespread (tens of millions vaccinated with AZ, seems unlikely in general), but because of that third production number reduction.

[StayTuned]

No, because there are unverified reports and they're acting in an abundance of caution which happens whenever there's anything unexplained like this.

You said there had been a connection found, there has not. Right now there's a potential causal link, but absent any way to verify it right now it's a potential side-effect. It's not due to any apparent failures, it's simply a concerning event that's causing countries in Europe to respond with caution.

In some good personal news, apparently my minor autoimmune disease (rheumatoid arthritis) kicks me into a higher risk group so I'm up for the vaccine "soon". Still feel kinda guilty for que jumping since I'm otherwise safe (work from home, minimal contact with others outside of my soon to be vaccinated brother who is serving rich people at his restaurant), but if my doctor/hospital network is telling me I should get it sooner I'm not gonna argue.

Mhm, we'll see. I'll be back in my usual fashion to be an ass to otherwise nice people like you once the connection is present.

Jokes aside, I totally get what you're saying. In all other cases we would be 100% aligned. But a potato shall strike me with lighting if AstraZeneca is really clean. It's a POS cocktail with much better alternatives out there but those are more expensive. What do you want to call me for connecting the dots? A conspiracy theorist?

And regarding these cases of clots. My money is on a problem with the vaccine.

And trust me, I'm the first who wants me to be in the wrong. But I smell bullshit like this miles against the wind. You should see the contracts Germany made with AstraZeneca. I've read summaries. Holy shit.

https://www.n-tv.de/politik/EU-stell...e22425800.html

Sorry again German but it's Germany specific. Hope Google translates it okay ish.

We, the German public, were told that the vaccine took so long to arrive because it was hard to make AstraZeneca sign off a contract that would hold them liable in certain situations, like shortage, fail to deliver, bad vaccine.... Etc.

TURNS OUT, the contract clearly and entirely frees them from any liability whatsoever!!! What the fuck??

We're being lied to by our Government constantly. I don't trust AstraZeneca. Fk all this noise. Rarely has frustration built up so strongly.