Mega-Thread: Coronavirus Pandemic

[D3thray]

Precisely, which is why I do not understand why everyone is like "we can't make C19 vaccination mandatory".
I got that argument when it was early and people had doubts in regards to side effects but now that millions have proven that they are safe...

We still don’t have long term studies. There’s a reason it usually takes a decade or longer to develop a new vaccine. There are plenty of examples from thalidomide to bupropion and celecoxib where particular adverse events only showed up after the drug was already approved. Hell there’s a drug combination that leads to type II diabetes that was only discovered around 2011 from looking at hospital metadata and both drugs had been on the market and popularly prescribed for decades.

There’s absolutely a legitimate reason to be concerned about the lack of long term studies for these vaccines, and I’m saying this as someone who got vaccinated back in the first week of January as soon as I was eligible.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0525120043.htm

"These kinds of drug interactions are almost certainly occurring all of the time, but, because they are not part of the approval process by the Food and Drug Administration, we can only learn about them after the drugs are on the market," said Russ Altman, MD, PhD, professor of bioengineering, of genetics and of medicine at Stanford.

[Orange Joe]

We still don’t have long term studies. There’s a reason it usually takes a decade or longer to develop a new vaccine. There are plenty of examples from thalidomide to bupropion and celecoxib where particular adverse events only showed up after the drug was already approved. Hell there’s a drug combination that leads to type II diabetes that was only discovered around 2011 from looking at hospital metadata and both drugs had been on the market and popularly prescribed for decades.

There’s absolutely a legitimate reason to be concerned about the lack of long term studies for these vaccines, and I’m saying this as someone who got vaccinated back in the first week of January as soon as I was eligible.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0525120043.htm

Pretty sure long term effect from drugs happen with drugs that either stay in your body for a long time or you take repeatedly. Neither of these happens with vaccines which is why most effects that can happen will happen within months of taking it.

[PhaelixWW]

We still don’t have long term studies.

Sure we do. And phase IV trials are optional and conducted after release anyway. This is not atypical.

There’s a reason it usually takes a decade or longer to develop a new vaccine.

Yeah, it's called bureaucracy. There was a lot of red tape that was cut to speed this along, but not the trial process itself, except for the fact that some vaccine candidates had simultaneous (but separate) trial phases. The trial participation for these vaccines was actually higher than most other trials, as well.

I mean, there are articles and articles about how these vaccines were not "rushed".

There are plenty of examples from thalidomide to bupropion and celecoxib where particular adverse events only showed up after the drug was already approved. Hell there’s a drug combination that leads to type II diabetes that was only discovered around 2011 from looking at hospital metadata and both drugs had been on the market and popularly prescribed for decades.

So your response to vaccine trials is to bring up non-vaccine drug trials?

There’s absolutely a legitimate reason to be concerned about the lack of long term studies for these vaccines

No. There's absolutely a legitimate reason to keep studying the effects of the vaccine, but there's no legitimate reason to be concerned.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0525120043.htm

"These kinds of drug interactions are almost certainly occurring all of the time, but, because they are not part of the approval process by the Food and Drug Administration, we can only learn about them after the drugs are on the market," said Russ Altman, MD, PhD, professor of bioengineering, of genetics and of medicine at Stanford.

Whiiiiich is why phase IV trials are a thing. But that's more for the rare, only-detectable-with-mass-usage, reactions. Phase III trials are designed to find any significant, widespread reactions. And those are done prior to the release of the vaccine.

That's very specifically why phase III is pre-release and phase IV is post-release.

[Zan15]

We still don’t have long term studies. There’s a reason it usually takes a decade or longer to develop a new vaccine. There are plenty of examples from thalidomide to bupropion and celecoxib where particular adverse events only showed up after the drug was already approved. Hell there’s a drug combination that leads to type II diabetes that was only discovered around 2011 from looking at hospital metadata and both drugs had been on the market and popularly prescribed for decades.

[/URL]

Got an example of a vaccine? quick quick google that rare example hurry!

On top of the red tape that was mentioned already in being cut, corporations had huge incentives to completly skip their normal business pipeline cycle.
A lot of times the development is delayed because of business reasons and its in line behind a dozen other pre-planned vaccines/drugs in the pipeline already.
Companies do not want to push all their products out at once, they have to keep a steady stream of revenue so they build pipeline plans for all their products and roll them out in a planned structure.

This vaccine skipped the line, got 10x the funding from outside sources with no conditions, no profit sharing, no revenue sharing, nothing just straight up cash.

and you wonder why it moved so fast. They knew they had a 100% of making a mint on the vac vs you never know with almost every other product they have planned.

[Forogil]

That's very specifically why phase III is pre-release and phase IV is post-release.

That is undermining your argument as most of the vaccines are currently only "emergency use approved" or with "conditional marketing approval" (different in the EU and US; others have other rules) - not the normal full approval. Which makes sense based on the risk and benefits.

And the original Phase III studies are not yet completed (note there are also a number of other Phase III studies for young people, variants of concern, pregnant women, etc).

AstraZeneca: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...draw=4&rank=93 - Estimated Completion Date September 2021
Moderna: https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/...&draw=2&rank=2 - Estimated Completion Date October 2022
(I couldn't find the original studies for Pfizer/BioNTech - they have several new Phase III trials ongoing.)

However, the remaining issues are primarily to test how long protection the vaccines give; although serious adverse effects are also studied.

They are still good enough to give to the general population - when we have a pandemic going on.

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Smallpox was eradicated.

Yes, I wrote we have eradicated one (smallpox) and is only close to eradicating another one (polio).

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Hence the a "bit more difficult", because we have to treat everyone as infectious. But we know that, heck knew that.

And eradicating a virus that lives in other animals is difficult, which is why I said "in humans".

A wide-spread virus that lives in both humans and other animals is practically impossible to eradicate, and Sars-Cov-2 is in that category. That's why WHO and others instead talk about living with the virus.

The reason I wrote "human viruses" is instead that have actually eradicated a virus among animals as well (that didn't infect humans), which isn't that relevant.

Given many countries (us and the uk being the blatant ones) didnt even try to eradicate it, that's not surprising that it wont be eradicated.

Thinking it would have been eradicated if the US and the uk acted differently isn't supported by any real evidence. The virus have also spread outside the western world.

[cjlab9ihih]

Guys, how's quarantine going in the country?

[ldev]

Guys, how's quarantine going in the country?

It's "extreme situation" now, not quarantine anymore. Everything's open, we have to wear masks in stores/cinemas/etc.

[Forogil]

They talked about eradicating it first, then we got to the point where a chunk of people thought it was a conspiracy, didn't care or just wanted life to go back to normal already.

Several countries managed to eliminate the virus,

A few isolated countries. The idea of stopping it world wide was shown to be a impossible after Italy's failure.

India was in a lockdown for months - and generally seen as scoring 100% on "lockdown" and that didn't stop the spread.

If other countries with land borders and dense populations can eliminate the virus there is no reason the us or uk couldnt either.

Except very few countries with used land borders managed to eliminate the virus. The partial successes are Mongolia, China, Taiwan, S. Korea, Australia, and New Zealand - and the only ones with used land borders are: China and Mongolia that are next to each other and have employed fairly heavy methods.

[Krakan]

I mean the idea of stopping it world wide was thrown out when people were evacuated from inside a quarrantine. Even if it didnt spread the infection (not like anyone would admit that), it showed that people had no interest following basic scientific advice.

Vietnam also managed to eliminate the virus up until very recently. It's entirely possible,

Countries like india couldnt lockdown without significant foreign aid which was never going to come because countries who'd completely fucked up and would normally provide aid couldnt.

One of the real issues was the fact that people were just constantly misinformed or ideologically opposed to the idea of disease control. It's not that it is impossible, just many people in power had no real interest in stopping it.

It's a complete failure and history wont look kindly on this.

It isn't even one political ideology that is to blame rather it flip flopped for a while as different sides tried to point score with it. I know Canada was properly mocked for keeping its borders and airports open because closing them for a pandemic was " racist".

I recall conservatives trying to keep the markets open as long as possible I honestly can't recall what side of the political isle changed first.

[Elegiac]

It isn't even one political ideology that is to blame rather it flip flopped for a while as different sides tried to point score with it. I know Canada was properly mocked for keeping its borders and airports open because closing them for a pandemic was " racist".

Which is entirely a result of Trudeau being a neoliberal shill and wanting to keep the country open for economic reasons just as much as conservatives.

So you're right, it's not one political ideology that's to blame - it's capitalism that sucks ass at dealing with public health crises.

[Rasulis]

We have at least two studies out now which indicate that after 6 months to a year, there has been no decline in development of b- & t-cells in the bone marrows of people that received the Moderna & Pfizer vaccines. The studies further indicate that in time, these cells had gotten better at producing antibodies. People who had Covid and then received these vaccines have more robust b- & t-cells development.

Based on these studies, there is a high likelihood that the two vaccines may last years. Even a lifetime. Booster shots would only be needed for new strains. However, the studies shows that the b- and t-cells appear to be very good at recognizing and producing antibodies against new variants.

No studies so far on the potential of vaccine recipients turning into brain eating zombies.

[Elegiac]

No studies so far on the potential of vaccine recipients turning into brain eating zombies.

Sadly these damn 5G microchips aren't iOS compatible so I can't get bluetooth working through my vaccine site.

[Tuor]

They talked about eradicating it first, then we got to the point where a chunk of people thought it was a conspiracy, didn't care or just wanted life to go back to normal already.

Several countries managed to eliminate the virus, the actions of the us and UK really set a standard among modern nations, because nobody is looking to China for advice. If other countries with land borders and dense populations can eliminate the virus there is no reason the us or uk couldnt either.

One country, China, managed to eliminate the virus, other countries, like NK deny any case. Nation's that managed to control include mostly island nations like Iceland and NZ.

It costs money and that's pretty much the main reason they didnt.

Keep in mind that i am not defending China, but if all nations did what China did, a hard lockdown, the virus wouldn't had mutated so much has it did, and it would actually be a lot cheaper spend 6 month's in a lockdown then keep going in and out for the last 1 year and half, by now, everyone would be already recovering their economies.

[Rasulis]

Sadly these damn 5G microchips aren't iOS compatible so I can't get bluetooth working through my vaccine site.

Apparently Bill Gates opted to use DOS for his vaccine implanted microchips. He must have been feeling nostalgic. Either that or he had been planning to take over the world since the 1980s.

[Elegiac]

Apparently Bill Gates opted to use DOS for his vaccine implanted microchips. He must have been feeling nostalgic. Either that or he had been planning to take over the world since the 1980s.

I guess the real conspiracy is whether or not Moderna & Pfizer can run Doom.

[Krakan]

One country, China, managed to eliminate the virus, other countries, like NK deny any case. Nation's that managed to control include mostly island nations like Iceland and NZ.


Keep in mind that i am not defending China, but if all nations did what China did, a hard lockdown, the virus wouldn't had mutated so much has it did, and it would actually be a lot cheaper spend 6 month's in a lockdown then keep going in and out for the last 1 year and half, by now, everyone would be already recovering their economies.

China claims to have.. china claims a lot of things though...

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I guess the real conspiracy is whether or not Moderna & Pfizer can run Doom.

I never get why the crazy views are so focused on rather then the more reasonable ones. I can understand holding off till the vaccines pass clinical trials to ensure they don't have unintended long term side effect if your not in a at risk group.

It's a new method of immunization I think some amount of caution is warranted. While I doubt it will have any severe side effects I could see it leading to an increased risk to other conditions down the line.

[D3thray]

Got an example of a vaccine? quick quick google that rare example hurry!

On top of the red tape that was mentioned already in being cut, corporations had huge incentives to completly skip their normal business pipeline cycle.
A lot of times the development is delayed because of business reasons and its in line behind a dozen other pre-planned vaccines/drugs in the pipeline already.
Companies do not want to push all their products out at once, they have to keep a steady stream of revenue so they build pipeline plans for all their products and roll them out in a planned structure.

This vaccine skipped the line, got 10x the funding from outside sources with no conditions, no profit sharing, no revenue sharing, nothing just straight up cash.

and you wonder why it moved so fast. They knew they had a 100% of making a mint on the vac vs you never know with almost every other product they have planned.

Lol you think I had to Google those examples? I know what I’m talking about. That you choose to be ignorant doesn’t mean I’m wrong. Try telling me again how long term studies aren’t important.

[Tuor]

China claims to have.. china claims a lot of things though...

True, can't deny that...

[beanman12345]

I never get why the crazy views are so focused on rather then the more reasonable ones. I can understand holding off till the vaccines pass clinical trials to ensure they don't have unintended long term side effect if your not in a at risk group.

It's a new method of immunization I think some amount of caution is warranted. While I doubt it will have any severe side effects I could see it leading to an increased risk to other conditions down the line.

There are no reasonable views against the vaccine, just irrational and ignorant ones, yes even the ones you say you "understand" or whatever.

[Krakan]

There are no reasonable views against the vaccine, just irrational and ignorant ones, yes even the ones you say you "understand" or whatever.

What is irrational about waiting for proper clinical trials before taking the vaccine if you are in a low risk risk group in your mind?

I am curious to hear your rational for it.