BWL world first progression thread

[FelPlague]

Again the patch is on 1.12 they are doing over double the dps they would be doing prior to the talent rebalance dungeon rebalance and various other damage changes. It was absolutely not doable on live Ion was one of the people who helped calculate this. DnT and Nihilum were way better than APES or the other video guilds that have been doing the same content for 15 years. Now could they hold a candle to the current Limit or Method absolutely not.

"Doing double the damage now they were back then" not true but k.

[Kharill]

42 fucking minutes......

Bet all those people saying BWL would take a week tops feel like a right tit now.

[FelPlague]

More like if BoD was cleared in 43 minutes wait we do that now. It's a speed clear it's not a world first race.

Except we are using gear from 3 raids after BoD...
BWL is a new raid, and got cleared in actually 30 minutes.

[Xath]

If it was on the correct patch, it would still get destroyed, you would just have to add like 5-10 minutes to clear times probably.

Beyond knowing every little thing about the game and it's raids (which isn't much), people still fail to realize that this game just can't be compared because mentality has shifted. Look at PvP. When PvP was first released nobody knew exactly how it worked, and it was much less common to have people doing dodgy tactics like queue dodging, or maximizing honor per hour. Now it's common practice because people have been doing this shit on private servers for a decade and the inner workings of the system is completely fleshed out.

PvE is exactly the same. Not only do people know the bosses inside and out, but people don't need to deal with buggy game either. Mentality shift changes the difficulty of classic WoW pretty hard, regardless of whether or not you lived on private severs, or have been part of most expansion launches. When I played 15 years ago we had monkeys who had no idea how to gear themselves and now you have people who actually get excited when green items that give +healing, or +damage to a specific caster school. Before you just had ignorant people who wore tier sets just because it was blue or epic, regardless of whether it was good or not. Don't even get me started on %hit or weapon skill. 15 years ago you might have had a fraction of the people in Winterspring farming melee consumables, while these days it's not uncommon to see more than a dozen people in that area 24 hours a day. Then finally you arrive at world buffs. Do you know how rampant it was early in WoW for people to save these items before a raid started, instead of just turning them immediately to get your reward? Yeah, that barely happened, and most people only took advantage of that towards the end of Vanilla.

So lets put this altogether. 15 year old game, bugs removed, zero mystery, players with actual consumables, and rampant use of world buffs and people are going to sit here saying that the big reason is it's running on the 1.12 client? Don't get me wrong, player power is certainly increased on the 1.12 patch cycle, but people are still going to blow this content out of the water regardless of what patch cycle they decided to use. The only way you make this content difficult is by lining people up and pushing them down the stairs to give them brain damage.

This isn't me shitting on classic. I raided 15 years ago and I actually raid on classic as well, but for different reasons. For people to be surprised or to still make excuses as to why clearing BWL in <1 hour is possible dumbfounds me though. AQ40 and Naxxaramas are going to fall extremely quickly too. Not <30 minutes quick, but it's still going to get stomped. There are several bosses spanning both AQ40 and Naxx that would be around first week heroic difficulty by today's standards, but it's still not going to be hard.

It's a lot more than 5 to 10 minutes but it's also just executing a pre known strategy. Classic isn't vanilla it will never be vanilla maybe if they release new content it will be an actual race but right now it's just a speed clear.

[FelPlague]

42 fucking minutes......

Bet all those people saying BWL would take a week tops feel like a right tit now.

actually 32, 40 is what the first guild took.
but apes did it in 32 minutes, as they took a bit to start.

[Xath]

Except we are using gear from 3 raids after BoD...
BWL is a new raid, and got cleared in actually 30 minutes.

It's not though because a lot of dungeon gear is bis up til naxx. And does EP work for you because Limit was doing multiple clears of that per night after it got on farm. We are talking about people who have been doing these bosses for in some cases 15 years.

[FelPlague]

It's not though because a lot of dungeon gear is bis up til naxx. And does EP work for you because Limit was doing multiple clears of that per night after it got on farm. We are talking about people who have been doing these bosses for in some cases 15 years.

EP still took a week to clear on mythic first time.

[Xath]

"Doing double the damage now they were back then" not true but k.

It is true some of us actually played back then people weren't doing 2k lol. 1200 was considered holy shit level in Naxx outside of whichever fire mage is getting the ignite stack they could spike up to 1.5kish and that's super misleading because they are getting all the ignites of everyone.

[PrairieChicken]

I thought it would fall in few hours after release but man I was wrong

[Xath]

EP still took a week to clear on mythic first time.

THIS ISN'T THE FIRST TIME

How can you not get this through your head. It's not a new raid it's the same raid they have been doing for 15 years.

[OrcsRLame]

Again the patch is on 1.12 they are doing over double the dps they would be doing prior to the talent rebalance dungeon rebalance and various other damage changes.

If that was true they would have C'thun at sub 10% before the burn phase ends. That doesn't happen though.

And it's really easy to fact check you.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.11.0

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.10.0

AQ came out in 1.9. Where are the crazy warrior and rogue buffs between AQ and Naxx? Where are they? Hell, fuck the rogues, you don't even technically need them, just bring more warriors.

What you're saying is bullshit on its face because talents don't even double your damage to begin with. Zero talents vs an optimized build is not -50% damage, so they're no possible way that buffed talents can account for that much damage discrepancy.

It was absolutely not doable on live Ion was one of the people who helped calculate this.

You don't even know what you're talking about. What Ion calculated, is that it was not mathematically possible, given the damage his guild was doing, to kill the tentacles fast enough to not fall behind in spawns.

Ion's math was not wrong. The reason he was wrong about C'thun being mathematically impossible comes down to 2 points.

1. Tentacles do not need to be killed in P2 to complete the fight. You can simply burn the boss in P2. That is something Ion never considered.

2. It's possible to do substantially more damage than Ion thought possible at the time by recruiting and gearing 25 more warriors and stacking every buff in the game on them.

- - - Updated - - -

It is true some of us actually played back then people weren't doing 2k lol. 1200 was considered holy shit level in Naxx outside of whichever fire mage is getting the ignite stack they could spike up to 1.5kish and that's super misleading because they are getting all the ignites of everyone.

That's because your computers were shit, your internet was shit, people played for fun and nobody was stacking world buffs with consumables.

[AeneasBK]

It is true some of us actually played back then people weren't doing 2k lol. 1200 was considered holy shit level in Naxx outside of whichever fire mage is getting the ignite stack they could spike up to 1.5kish and that's super misleading because they are getting all the ignites of everyone.

2 - 2.5k was Sunwell levels of DPS for some classes

[Xath]

2 - 2.5k was Sunwell levels of DPS for some classes

Yeah this is just insane not to mention that debuff slots not being capped at 8 is absolutely huge for damage plus half their dps have gm weps lol

[FelPlague]

It is true some of us actually played back then people weren't doing 2k lol. 1200 was considered holy shit level in Naxx outside of whichever fire mage is getting the ignite stack they could spike up to 1.5kish and that's super misleading because they are getting all the ignites of everyone.

odd, im looking back and no one is doing even close to 2k, the highest is usually almost 1k dps.
and yeah, we were far less skilled back then. people didnt know best in slot.
also no, you can go back to old vanilal footage and 1200 is not "holy shit" level

[Xath]

odd, im looking back and no one is doing even close to 2k, the highest is usually almost 1k dps.
and yeah, we were far less skilled back then. people didnt know best in slot.
also no, you can go back to old vanilal footage and 1200 is not "holy shit" level

Yes it was lol and I'm looking at wow classic logs right now. You are are probably looking at wrath videos. Loatheb is the boss you want to look at for a pure dps check.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...ric=dps&boss=0 - Yeah those numbers definitely aren't massively inflated by gear talents and damage rebalance plus debuff lots being extended

Nef died in 2 mins Drama's original kill took 17 minutes. Stop trying to claim this is anything similar to an actual world first it's not.

[Sliske]

But for the areas I *do* have experience in? It's not even a question that Classic is more difficult.

This is a pretty shit meme. Classic is just undeniably easier. Heres a quick example - a simple 3 minute DPS check fight. Which is harder? Retail, by a country mile. In classic, you press one button the entire fight and pot if you're feeling frisky. In retail, at bare minimum, most classes have a half dozen abilities they regularly use AND they need to line up cooldowns with procs. Even the easiest god damn mechanic in the game - standing still and hitting a target, is about a dozen times harder on retail than it is in classic.

This reminds me of when people head into Arena, fail miserably and so decide to go and twink instead and then say, unironically, that twinking is hard, takes skill and gladiator players are noobs.

Its a mega-cope. Just admit that classic is easy. Your raids that you will farm for 6 months were cleared 40 minutes after the launch. The next one will be, too, actually, probably faster as its ZG. I give that one 25 minutes.

AQ 20 and 40 will be down in about an hour and a half, so will naxx. If there is ever a mythic raid released that lasts less than a week, it is considered a joke and a massive failure on Blizzards part.

Classic raids last less time than the run time of an episode of Breaking Bad. Its actually depressing that they're wasting so much resources on Classic, when it is essentially mobile game-esque difficulty wise and everything in it is just grinding. People farming out BiS, when your raids are beaten in greens. Its hilarious. What a waste of time.

[vsb]

Yeah, Classic tuning is a joke. Just disappointing. The only interesting races are MC and Naxx.

[Tekkommo]

Impressive run, didn't expect the top guilds to do it that quickly first time, but I guess with gear itemisation that we have for this, makes it more than possible. Not forgetting that they've been doing this content for the past 15 years.

Really wish Blizz buffed the raids to compensate for the gear itemisation, knowledge etc.

Naxx will be the only raid tuned the way it was meant to be in Classic, and that will still fall over in hours (I say hours because it is pretty large). Remember people used to argue Naxx was the hardest raid ever (think this may have died down around WoD, can't remember).

Still think it's a fair argument that we are just far better MMO players as a whole these days. I was a clueless idiot in vanilla, but still managed to clear most of the content.

Oh, and a lot/most (not sure), are decked out in R14 gear...

[FelPlague]

Yes it was lol and I'm looking at wow classic logs right now. You are are probably looking at wrath videos. Loatheb is the boss you want to look at for a pure dps check.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...ric=dps&boss=0 - Yeah those numbers definitely aren't massively inflated by gear talents and damage rebalance plus debuff lots being extended

Nef died in 2 mins Drama's original kill took 17 minutes. Stop trying to claim this is anything similar to an actual world first it's not.

no, i was looking at vanilla wow footage, and yes i can tell cause its from 2006, and is just fucking horrible looking... plus using the vanilla wow gear, not the remade wotlk stuff.

[dacoolist]

The folks defending this as classic is harder stuff.. you understand that more than 1000 people have cleared bwl already right... the latest original wow raid Nyalotha has 3 guilds of 20man raids that have killed the last boss: and the raids been out for 2.5 weeks on the highest difficulty.. the replies that classic is harder is almost hilarious to read..

42 minute clear should kind of tell people the difference between the original release to today as well