Is Classic too easy?

[Sting]

Still plenty of dad guilds struggling to get past Broodlord/Firemaw on my server while a good pug can clear the whole thing.

This is where we get to see who actually can do the most important thing in all of classic, which is putting in the effort to reading guides for your class / the raid you're doing. Classic isn't difficult but if you go in unprepared and underestimating the content, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Lolites]

If blizzard released a LFR button for BWL and just dropped 40 random players into it i can guarantee you it would be a shitfest far from guaranteed to clear it at all.

so pretty much like LFR for first few days after release

[Alteiry]

"Vanilla is the hardest era of the game, you guys!" - People who played on private servers with deliberately and massively overtuned content because it would be too easy otherwise

[lurkanomics]

Why do people continue typing after the school analogy?

Being on a top 25 US guild at the time (woop woop US first viscidus post bug fix lol) I can fully understand that retail is loads harder - the game evolved as it did expansion by expansion and the players adapted - so of course going back to the basics ( but back then cutting edge) things are going to be simple, even if they put us on the most buffed patch.

Yeah the backlash from the hype is warranted but those who played back then and still keep up with the game know this was gonna happen.

Wasn’t expecting BWL to be 30-40 min tho lol

[Lord Pebbleton]

On my latest MC run, we died because a guy refused to download any addon, did not know the boss at all, and did not listen when told to get out with living bomb.

Obviously it is Classic's fault, it is wayyyyy too hard.

[caribez]

Here's Kungen a couple years ago talking about how insanely difficult Naxx was compared to retail which is obviously delusional: youtube. com/watch?v=T9iRC5DyFvA

I think people will be surprised how easy most of Naxx is for a prepared guild, we will see a world first less than two hours after launch, and if the game is still popular enough for guilds to stick around we will see people get a below one hour speedrun. At the same time casual guilds and pugs will struggle immensely at the later portions, 4H and KT while not much compared to retail mechanics are severely punishing of mistakes.

I have no doubt Naxx will be downed very quickly on Classic too, but I saw a stream with Kungen a few months ago when he was saying that the Classic patch is "nerfed" compared to when MC originally came. If that's correct, it might be the same case with BWL and I guess we won't really know until Naxx hits if vanilla is easier than "we all" remembered. I didn't raid much in vanilla (only ever did ZG and AQ20) but for me, the memory of the difficulty in the open world is still pretty much like I remembered, although I'm better at the game so I seem to die less often than back then.

Who knew investing multiple years of one's life into one thing would make one better at it.

[d00mh4cker]

It doesn't matter which is easier (classic is LFR mode easy). What matters is do you enjoy it?

[Kolvarg]

I said that in the way you can go into MC, for example, with people who are there to literally just fill up 40 people, not people "buying carries".

Does the reason why people are being carried really matter to whether the fact people are being carried say something about the difficulty?

And in that case it would be easy as hell, as you can just grab rando's as all they'd have to do is stand in place and attack a glorified target dummy, without worrying about being hit at all.

Which is precisely what LFR does for the majority of bosses, while completely automating everything else for you. Click a button, wait, attack a target dummy and get loot.
The difference with Classic raids being that as far as I'm aware the tuning is at least a bit harsher than LFR (especially considering the Determination buff), despite the mechanics/tactics not being as numerous/complex/required as Normal.

Nobody could "over-heal" or "over-DPS" Durumu's gaze. Nobody could "over-heal" or "over-DPS" Garalon's body slam. Nobody could "over-heal" or "over-DPS" the tentacles slamming down your head on the Carapace of N'Zoth. Nobody could "over-heal" or "over-DPS" being thrown off Deathwing's spine when he did a barrel roll. Etc, etc...

Those are a lot of claims without any evidence

These types of mechanics that actually matter in LFR are rare. There'll only be a few bosses every xpac where this happens, and when it does the tuning of the rest of the fight is usually so light that a handful of players will still be able to "over-heal" and "over-DPS" to make up for the people who die to mechanics.

If it "can be argued" that it's an "easy mode", then that means it can be argued that it's not the "base difficulty".

It can be argued. Doesn't mean it necessarily is. Certainly does not mean it must be considered that way when assessing overall difficulty.

This all began because you can't accept the fact that "time" is not a measurement of difficulty when there is no time limit. Keep that in mind next time you complain about "interesting discussions".

Except I've always stated that Classic is overall harder regardless of whether you consider "time" as an element of difficulty.

And "time" does account for difficulty, it's just your personal opinion/interpretation that it doesn't.

Time = Effort.
Difficulty = Effort + Skill.
Therefore, the greater the time, the greater the difficulty. Regardless of the existance of a time limit.

If you consider two otherwise equivalent goals, the only difference being how long each takes to complete, the one which takes longer is always more difficult to accomplish, if not for any other reason than requiring more patience/endurance/dedication. It's not for random that the expression "effort in patience" is often used. Or that humanity often celebrates acts that require a long time investment.

... You just literally asked for evidence. Again.

I fail to see where, do quote me.

It would, since you haven't shown any evidence of your claim.

And what exactly is that claim of mine you are talking about?

If you think I'm some kind of "uber-gamer" because I don't see leveling in classic WoW as a challenge, that speaks more of your "lack of skills" than mine, considering I'm just "above average".

Now who's being arrogant?

What's your evidence that you are just "above average"?

[d00mh4cker]

Does the reason why people are being carried really matter to whether the fact people are being carried say something about the difficulty?



Which is precisely what LFR does for the majority of bosses, while completely automating everything else for you. Click a button, wait, attack a target dummy and get loot.
The difference with Classic raids being that as far as I'm aware the tuning is at least a bit harsher than LFR (especially considering the Determination buff), despite the mechanics/tactics not being as numerous/complex/required as Normal.



Those are a lot of claims without any evidence

These types of mechanics that actually matter in LFR are rare. There'll only be a few bosses every xpac where this happens, and when it does the tuning of the rest of the fight is usually so light that a handful of players will still be able to "over-heal" and "over-DPS" to make up for the people who die to mechanics.



It can be argued. Doesn't mean it necessarily is. Certainly does not mean it must be considered that way when assessing overall difficulty.



Except I've always stated that Classic is overall harder regardless of whether you consider "time" as an element of difficulty.

And "time" does account for difficulty, it's just your personal opinion/interpretation that it doesn't.

Time = Effort.
Difficulty = Effort + Skill.
Therefore, the greater the time, the greater the difficulty. Regardless of it being "time attack" or not.

If you consider two otherwise equivalent goals, the only difference being how long each takes to complete, the one which takes longer is always more difficult to accomplish, if not for any other reason than requiring more patience/endurance/dedication. It's not for random that the expression "effort in patience" is often used. Or that humanity often celebrates acts that require a long time investment.



I fail to see where, do quote me.



And what exactly is that claim of mine you are talking about?



Now who's being arrogant?

What's your evidence that you are just "above average"?

Did you just argue that Classic is a more difficult game then retail? xD

Arguing that invested time equals difficulty, what even is this? You can literally run through classics most diffculty content with your hands tied playing with your dick.

To get real, the time investment in classic is not even that great. It took the top guilds 6 days from release to end Ragnaros. 6 days. They finished the game in 6 days. Casual guilds took 8-12 days but mostly because they raid on weekends and not in the middle of the week.

My friends playing in a causal guild who only raid logs ran through bwl yesterday in 2 hours. It's a joke. A couple of them quit the game because of this, they were looking forward for this challange. They havent played vanilla, they started in BC and wrath, but they heard good things about how hardcore it was in vanilla and it's a joke. They wouldnt even compare it to normal dungeon in retail.

Im actually a bit mad about this. Because people still argue that classic is this hardcore game compared to retail. Stop fooling people.

Just let classic be what it is, a great immersive MMO for everone, almost everyone.

[vipers]

PSA: Vanilla was never that challenging, most people just weren't very good at the game yet. And most of the difficulty was artificial, like 'must have X Fire/Nature resistance or die to this mechanic'.

Not sure why this is hard to understand, but 15 years of vastly more complex/difficult raid fights and experience with these classes/specs kind of makes a difference.

As for 'what's the point if there's no challenge' - I don't know, fun maybe? Nostalgia? Enjoying the lore, community/social stuff, etc? If the only way you can enjoy a game is if its difficult, you're playing the wrong version of WoW.

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Right? I understand that people like Classic better but the idea that vanilla was even remotely as difficult as the modern game is a joke.

Jumping straight wow classic 1.12 was so big boost on itemization

[Mardux]

"Too easy" compared to what? It's exactly what people wanted, #nochanges. Is it vastly easier than Retail? Yes. So was the original Vanilla.

#nochanges ? Except for the changes, right?

[deepr]

All PvE content that is not endgame raiding or mythic dungeons in retail is ridiculously piss easy, even compared to classic.
Basically, non-instanced content has become pretty much irrelevant in retail. You just have to work through it for leveling, farming WQ's etc.
Not that world content in classic is hard, but at least you have to watch your step. And the whole leveling process in classic is simply a lot more fun and adventurous.

[keldarepewpew]

It's not that easy. Classic was sold to me by the community as a hardcore experience and the most difficult the game has ever been. I've invested 6 months of my life into this game and I'm not about to throw that away, but I am going to complain about it.

I thought that maybe MC was the outlier and was again reassured by the community that it would ramp up to the max when BWL came out but it's basically the same 1-2 mechanics and you're standing in the same spot spamming the same 1-2 buttons over and over.

"The hardest content" the game has ever had shouldn't be clearable by a casual guild such as mine on our first raiding night. Hell even Karazhan was harder.

Karazhan was a jokeand much easier then bwl. You are falling into the same trapp.

[Kolvarg]

Did you just argue that Classic is a more difficult game then retail? xD

Arguing that invested time equals difficulty, what even is this? You can literally run through classics most diffculty content with your hands tied playing with your dick.

Yeap. Both versions of the game are fairly easy overall (at least for someone who has a fair amount of experience in games and MMORPGs in gneeral), but Classic does not have multiple difficulties. Modern WoW's difficulty is entirely optional and up to an individual player to pursue, and the majority of players don't. Since you can complete/play the majority of the content in Normal dungeon difficulty (Which is easier than Classic dungeons imo), LFR raid difficulty(which is easier than Classic raids imo), and overall leveling/world content is easier/more forgiving than Classic, I consider Classic overall harder.

Optional difficulty settings account to how hard a game can be. Not necessarily how hard it is overall.

[Mardux]

Oh come on. No one. NO ONE is saying Classic raids are as hard as mythic.

And all of you... just fucking go play retail. If that's what you enjoy GO DO IT. Shitposting here about how classic is easier just makes you look like petty little jerks. Those of us who like classic... LIKE CLASSIC. We don't care if it's harder, easier or whatever. It's DIFFERENT. If you feel otherwise, cool. Go do what you enjoy. You're 24 pages into whining about how classic might be easier as if anyone really fucking cares.

Man... now if only the classic playerbase could get this through their heads about retail players. But alas, that will likely never happen and they will continue coming to threads based on an aspect of BFA just to trash talk BFA and its players.

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All PvE content that is not endgame raiding or mythic dungeons in retail is ridiculously piss easy, even compared to classic.
Basically, non-instanced content has become pretty much irrelevant in retail. You just have to work through it for leveling, farming WQ's etc.
Not that world content in classic is hard, but at least you have to watch your step. And the whole leveling process in classic is simply a lot more fun and adventurous.

If by "fun and adventurous" you mean bland, slow, and unnecessarily time consuming, then sure.

[d00mh4cker]

Yeap. Both versions of the game are fairly easy overall, but Classic does not have multiple difficulties. Modern WoW's difficulty is entirely optional and up to an individual player to pursue, and the majority of players don't. Since you can complete/play the majority of the content in Normal dungeon difficulty (Which is easier than Classic dungeons imo), LFR raid difficulty(which is easier than Classic raids imo), and overall leveling/world content is easier/more forgiving than Classic, I consider Classic overall harder.

Optional difficulty settings account to how hard a game can be. Not necessarily how hard it is overall.

Arguing that invested time equals difficulty, what even is this? You can literally run through classics most diffculty content with your hands tied playing with your dick.

To get real, the time investment in classic is not even that great. It took the top guilds 6 days from release to end Ragnaros. 6 days. They finished the game in 6 days. Casual guilds took 8-12 days but mostly because they raid on weekends and not in the middle of the week.

My friends playing in a causal guild who only raid logs ran through bwl yesterday in 2 hours. It's a joke. A couple of them quit the game because of this, they were looking forward for this challange. They havent played vanilla, they started in BC and wrath, but they heard good things about how hardcore it was in vanilla and it's a joke. They wouldnt even compare it to normal dungeon in retail.

Im actually a bit mad about this. Because people still argue that classic is this hardcore game compared to retail. Stop fooling people.

Just let classic be what it is, a great immersive MMO for everone, almost everyone.

What you should do it comparing the hardest available content to the hardest available content. You can breeze through the story in retail but you can also have a real challange in high m+ keys and mythic raiding.

Please dont argue that classic dungeons are hard. Atleast in retail you have to bring a tank and healer unless your well overgeared.

Please stop fooling people.

[Kolvarg]

Arguing that invested time equals difficulty, what even is this?

It is what it is, I've presented my reasoning, go ahead and argue agaisnt it if you want. Repeating that phrase won't change anyone's mind.

They finished the game in 6 days. Casual guilds took 8-12 days.

They finished the game.. that isn't fully released yet? The experience of dedicated guilds does not reflect the experience of average players. And anyone who got to max level in such short time is extremely dedicated compared to the average player.

But do tell me: How long does it take to clear LFR? Especially considering you can pay to instantly get a max level character.

Im actually a bit mad about this. Because people still argue that classic is this hardcore game compared to retail. Stop fooling people.
Please stop fooling people.

Then you should calm down and read what I'm actually saying. My argument is not that Classic is hardcore or that Classic is hard. My argument is that both games are "easy" for an average MMORPG player, but Classic is harder.

What you should do it comparing the hardest available content to the hardest available content. You can breeze through the story in retail but you can also have a real challange in high m+ keys and mythic raiding.

Why? That's comparing how hard it can be, not how hard it is. If Dark Souls had an "easy mode" where you are literally unkillable, it would never have become famous as one of the hardest modern games, even if its current difficulty was still available as a "normal" or "hard" mode.

The majority of people don't seek a "real challenge", they play the game on the base or easiest setting, so that's how hard the game will be for the average player.

Please dont argue that classic dungeons are hard. Atleast in retail you have to bring a tank and healer unless your well overgeared.

I didn't. I argued that they are harder. And don't forget we are talking about all dungeons in the game, not just endgame.

[Whistl3r]

Arguing that invested time equals difficulty, what even is this? You can literally run through classics most diffculty content with your hands tied playing with your dick.

To get real, the time investment in classic is not even that great. It took the top guilds 6 days from release to end Ragnaros. 6 days. They finished the game in 6 days. Casual guilds took 8-12 days but mostly because they raid on weekends and not in the middle of the week.

My friends playing in a causal guild who only raid logs ran through bwl yesterday in 2 hours. It's a joke. A couple of them quit the game because of this, they were looking forward for this challange. They havent played vanilla, they started in BC and wrath, but they heard good things about how hardcore it was in vanilla and it's a joke. They wouldnt even compare it to normal dungeon in retail.

Im actually a bit mad about this. Because people still argue that classic is this hardcore game compared to retail. Stop fooling people.

Just let classic be what it is, a great immersive MMO for everone, almost everyone.

What you should do it comparing the hardest available content to the hardest available content. You can breeze through the story in retail but you can also have a real challange in high m+ keys and mythic raiding.

Please dont argue that classic dungeons are hard. Atleast in retail you have to bring a tank and healer unless your well overgeared.

Please stop fooling people.

Its not that classic is easy. Its that the strategies have been perfected over 15 years as has bis gear.
If you put a LFR group from retail into BWL with no idea of strategy they wouldn't get past the first boss. Your friend would not be clearing BWL in the first reset.
The only difference is retail raids have been designed with mythic and heroic modes to provide extra challenge and better loot.

[sejii]

If hard = fun for you guys, you definitly should play another game.
Because no version of WoW is "hard".

[Echocho]

Karazhan was a jokeand much easier then bwl. You are falling into the same trapp.

You must be joking right? Granted when they split it up into two dungeons and you could LFG them as heroic ones they were easy but at launch when it only had a mythic mode it was at least a little bit challenging.