"Play what you want"

[Khallid]

"Play what you want" only works if you're actually good at the spec you want to play.

I played BM Hunter though all of Legion, and it was a bottom tier spec all expansion, but I was still top of the meters in my guild, so nobody really cared.

However, if you say that you like weak spec and then you suck at it, nobody is going to grant you a pass.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Whenever there is a discussion about raid performance, the go-to rebuttal is almost always "play what you want to play", as if it handwaves away the genuine performance concerns that are being raised in the argument. Nonetheless, do raiders really get to play the spec that they want to in raids, especially those specs who are always underperforming?

I can see how there might be some players, who have been veterans in their guilds, can get away with it while the rest of the guild puts up with them due to their authority. But for the majority of players, particularly those who are joining a new guild, I don't believe they have the luxury of truly "playing what they want".

If we look at the warcraftlogs statistics, the general trend is that the lower the DPS, the lower the total number of parses. For example, the bottom 10 specs have a total of 17,838 total parses whereas the top 10 specs have a total of 54,698 parses, more than 3x as many. This indicates to me that players aren't really playing "what they want", but playing "what is best".

Based on the above, can we really say that raiders are playing "what they want"?

Remember a lot of players WANT to play what is best so if you tell them "play what you want" they will just want the best, whatever it is. Some people willingly pick their second or third fave class based on performance without being forced by their raid leader. Not a lot of people will seriously stick to something terrible and just eat shit all day long by everyone. My guild is in mythic, we have people playing some specs that are considered to be underperforming but they are doing well so there's no reason to make them change or anything.

I don't really think there's a movement or a trend forcing everyone to play the same top 5 things, never seen that happen in all my time playing, except in vanilla/classic because that was the worse balance the game ever had.

[Jastall]

If you aren't playing the best available spec for your class, you are holding your team behind. If you are holding your team behind, you'll get benched. 100% of raiders have to play meta specs / builds. People who don't and claim to be "raiders" aren't actually raiders and wouldn't be raiding at all if Blizzard didn't make 3 faceroll difficulties for them.

Yeah, sure buttercup. That's why the two first M N'zoth kills had Balance Druids, Ret Pallies and Rogues in them despite these classes/specs not doing so hot in aggregate logs. Because "real raiders" get instantly benched as soon as they don't play Warrior/BM Hunter/Fire Mage/Destro.

[Nite92]

No ce guild will take a frost mage, silly

Lol, sure. There are guilds who achieve CE while some members cant get purple logs. You just need to play better, then you can play whatever spec.

[LanToaster]

Whenever there is a discussion about raid performance, the go-to rebuttal is almost always "play what you want to play", as if it handwaves away the genuine performance concerns that are being raised in the argument. Nonetheless, do raiders really get to play the spec that they want to in raids, especially those specs who are always underperforming?

It always comes down to the Enviroment.

If you want to raid Mythic, you most likely know what spec to choose so you dont need to Ask. In my Opinion in NHC or HC, a "Underperforming" specc is also fine. You dont need the "Best" performance for HC.

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Lol, sure. There are guilds who achieve CE while some members cant get purple logs. You just need to play better, then you can play whatever spec.

Play a Weak Specc, and you get Purple Logs fairly Easy. :P

[Onikaroshi]

It always comes down to the Enviroment.

If you want to raid Mythic, you most likely know what spec to choose so you dont need to Ask. In my Opinion in NHC or HC, a "Underperforming" specc is also fine. You dont need the "Best" performance for HC.

You don't need to play the "Best" performer for Mythic either, every spec is capable of clearing. WW was considered trash tier for EP, still people clearing with WW monks.

[Mardux]

Raiders are playing what the SIMS say is best.

However, no one really questions sims or APLs. People like to turn off their brains and just follow the lead. (myself included)
I wonder if Blizz released THEIR AI bots and sims, what would happen
- if Blizz's AI is smarter than the players, we'd have "oooh" moments to play EVERY spec in the game to try to mimic Blizzard's AI.
- if the players are smarten than Blizz's AI, can we, the players, concinve the rockstar Devs that WE want to play the lesser tuned specs and make them give a few % of buffs to low performers?

Either way, everyone would benefit from this.
(but as Blizz stands today, this AI would be more than laughable...)

TIL Limit brought people who weren't raiders when they first killed multiple bosses in nyalotha.

[LanToaster]

You don't need to play the "Best" performer for Mythic either, every spec is capable of clearing. WW was considered trash tier for EP, still people clearing with WW monks.

But its much much harder to play a "Lesser" Specc in Mythic, as you need quite a bit more Performance than in HC. And my point still stands:
If you want to or play in a Mythic Guild, you probably dont need to ask which Specc to play.

[EyeOculus]

If people want "the meta" in demanding difficulties, it's fine. As long as that mentality stays there, I have no issues.
But if people bring that mentality to easier difficulties that certainly don't require any of those and don't want "inferior" classes or specs, I'll show them my middlefinger and move on to the next group.

"Play what you want" is pretty much possible to clear heroic raids and higher keys in the 10 - 15 region.
It's a community issue that "play what you want" gets frowned upon.

[Onikaroshi]

But its much much harder to play a "Lesser" Specc in Mythic, as you need quite a bit more Performance than in HC. And my point still stands:
If you want to or play in a Mythic Guild, you probably dont need to ask which Specc to play.

And many CE guilds are play what you want /shrug. Doesn't really matter what level you play it, if you play something you enjoy you'll generally perform better than playing something you hate. Unless something is so out of line that it's broken op, then it probably needs a nerf.

Like right now fire and bm probably need some nerfs.

[Biske]

You also have to keep in mind that there's a lot of overlap between specs that perform best, and what players enjoy/want to play. For example, if idk, disc priest suddenly started doing top DPS despite being a healer, you can be sure you'd be seeing a lot of people switch to that because they want to see themselves at the top of the DPS meters, because they get enjoyment out of feeling like they're "the best". And also playing something you find fun makes you do better at it because you put in more time and effort.

Me? I play whatever I think feels best, but not just on a mechanical side, but because I'm a huge fucking nerd, what I feel would fit my character best. Like, my Highmountain Tauren is very physically imposing and looks like someone who'd be all up in your face. So I play survival. I could go marksman, but it wouldn't feel right for his hulking mass to be plinking away at dudes and letting just the animal do all the work. He'd be up there with the beasts. DPS for survival is alright, though. Or, my main, my paladin, which I identify with the most: he's prot and sometimes holy, because that's in part how I see myself, how my friends see me, and how I see my character. Helpful, taking literal and figurative hits for others, shit like that. Sure, tanks and healers are always in demand, but that's not why I play him.

[Video Games]

Lol, sure. There are guilds who achieve CE while some members cant get purple logs. You just need to play better, then you can play whatever spec.

I have mythic orange logs as frost back in bfd, but i dont think you understand how broken fire is right now and in 2 weeks with the cape proc, it will get more broken

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Im sure there are ce guilds that would take a good frostmage, its all in your head.

No good ce guild, then

[Onikaroshi]

I have mythic orange logs as frost back in bfd, but i dont think you understand how broken fire is right now and in 2 weeks with the cape proc, it will get more broken

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No good ce guild, then

That's just a symptom of Fire needing a hard nerf. Any other spec performs like that and blizzard nerfs them (hello shadow priest), but fire is their baby or some shit.

[jellmoo]

Let's imagine that we can break players down into 4 groups.

Group #1 - They don't raid, or the closest they do is LFR. They obviously can play whatever they want.

Group #2 - They raid very casually. Maybe Normals, maybe Heroic. Never cutting edge. Never in a rush. They get through stuff at their own pace. They'll pretty much play what they want, mayyyyybe change specs if they need somebody to switch roles.

Group #3 - Top tier players. Mythic Raiders that push cutting edge progression the second it comes out. A tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of the overall player base, they look for every numerical advantage possible. They absolutely will change to play whatever the meta is, and toss aside class/spec that is underperforming.

Group #4 - They think that they are in Group #3. They aren't. They study raids night and day, try and fine tune everything, look over stats and numbers, but at the end of the day just aren't as good as the Group #3 players. This isn't a bad thing. Not everyone can be the best. But this group is also considerably larger than Group #3, and tends to be very vocal. They create most of the dissent and drama when it comes to class and spec choice.

For most players, play what you want is perfectly fine. For a small and elite grou pf players, it is not. The real conundrum is the folks that think they are part of that elite group, and live by those same standards, when it largely does not matter for them.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

And many CE guilds are play what you want /shrug. Doesn't really matter what level you play it, if you play something you enjoy you'll generally perform better than playing something you hate. Unless something is so out of line that it's broken op, then it probably needs a nerf.

Like right now fire and bm probably need some nerfs.

My dude there a big, BIG difference between CE top 2,10, 50,100,200 and the top 5000 after 20 nerfs and 30 more ilvl

People in the range of top 100 Play whatever the raidlead want them to play for whatever output/strats is needed, if my raidlead wants 5 rets in our raid we will play 5 rets as long as we are successful with it.

[Onikaroshi]

My dude there a big, BIG difference between CE top 2,10, 50,100,200 and the top 5000 after 20 nerfs and 30 more ilvl

People in the range of top 100 Play whatever the raidlead want them to play for whatever output/strats is needed, if my raidlead wants 5 rets in our raid we will play 5 rets as long as we are successful with it.

And no one is denying that some guilds do that, that's your prerogative. Not the type of guild I personally would join, but people want different things.

[MrLachyG]

for non hardcore guilds, yeah playing what you enjoy should be all you consider. for the top 100 or those pushing world first you need to have at the very least multiple alts ready to jump in and raid. for those raiders it doesn't come down to what people enjoy but it comes down to what mechanics need to be countered and which classes can do so most effectively.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

And no one is denying that some guilds do that, that's your prerogative. Not the type of guild I personally would join, but people want different things.

What i wanted to say is that these players can play sub-optimal classes and also perform poorly and still getting CE after the 20 nerfs and Ilvl Push at the end of a patch, CE is not just CE.

And frankly everyone should know for themselves whether they want to be a burden for their guild or not. I personally cannot play a spec of a class that does 30% less damage and be at peace with myself because I know that i will delay the progression of my Guild.

[Tojara]

Play what you want is generally pretty valid, for most guilds.

Most people can't play multiple specs, let alone multiple classes, and the performance difference from changing from something people are comfortable with to FoTM might end up being a damage loss anyways. People need to keep in mind that players generally aren't forced into playing something they don't want to play. A lot, and I mean a lot of people just gravitate towards the spec that performs the best and really don't care if it's their actual preference or not. Why? Because people just like playing the thing that's the most useful and gives them the best opportunity to perform the best. People just like to see big numbers generally. In other cases there are those out there that literally jump between classes not because their raid leader asks them to do so, but because they want to play something that's FoTM.

I generally call bullshit though. The amount of people that get benched because they play the wrong class or spec is incredibly minuscule. At the very top this is a given and these people are just proficient at just about everything, so it goes with the territory. Anywhere else in regards to raiding I think this behavior would be incredible rare. Basically it's more the players choosing to play "OP" classes and specs, then the guild that they're in.

Understand that certain specs/classes are under-represented not because of their relative strength/weakness, but because players just tend to gravitate towards certain things naturally. There are a billion hunters because people like that fantasy, which is the same as paladins. Survival as it stand will always be a niche spec because it's melee, and people like the ranged fantasy or the combination of range with a pet.

[Onikaroshi]

What i wanted to say is that these players can play sub-optimal classes and also perform poorly and still getting CE after the 20 nerfs and Ilvl Push at the end of a patch, CE is not just CE.

And frankly everyone should know for themselves whether they want to be a burden for their guild or not. I personally cannot play a spec of a class that does 30% less damage and be at peace with myself because I know that i will delay the progression of my Guild.

CE is just CE, a CE guild is a CE a guild. The rankings beyond (world 1, 10, 100, 5000, etc) are what sets guilds apart, yes a rank 50 world guild is making sure every person is playing "the best spec", no one is arguing that. And it's not about "performing poorly" either, you can be an extremely good player and play a "sub-optimal" spec (which is like 20% at worse lower, and if you remove the specs that could use nerfs is closer to 15%), not everyone's fun is based around "playing the best".

The content is designed for any spec to be able to beat it, and not every frost mage is going to be beating the content "after 20 nerfs".

Some people have fun playing the meta spec, some have fun playing the spec they enjoy, there's places for everyone, and the second person won't be getting world 100 probably, but their not going to necessarily be world 5000 either.