WOW- Now pay to win?

[Dystemper]

Yes, and buying BOEs in that manner wasn't exactly good in those cases either.

Here's where I stand:

The Token is a good thing. It just about completely eliminated the black market of gold-selling.

Corrupted BOEs are inexcusably poorly considered, and never should have been implemented. Not only because of the gold token creating a P2W environment, but also by badly circumventing the normal power progression of characters, and greatly diminishing the effect of player skill on performance. (Preach did an excellent video explaining the details of this, if you're interested in delving deeper into it).

BOEs, in general, are not necessarily a massive problem. Yes, they do allow a player to obtain equipment outside of the normal process of doing runs and dealing with the RNG drop system. But BOEs are often sub-optimal choices compared to actual drops, limiting the effectiveness of powering up via gold. Corrupted gear throws that completely out the window.

With the right corruption, a player can do up to 40% more Dps then they normally could. Thats just really piss poor fucking game design

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cant really talk about it without seeing your char, might be weak weapon or bad stat distribution, but given that it did 20% at patchwerk there is something wrong either with the simulation or with your gear...
anyhow, sim and reality are often different, mine 9% of damage as blood DK on ilvl 460 wasnt from sim, but real dungeon dps

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you are either joking or you have never seen mythic level raider OR corruped item in your life...

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you do realise people were selling and buying gold/items/boosts since vanila?

Not Joking, Preach video , and others have proved this with Raid logs . Shit he even had his wife play his toon as a test and she did about 30% more dps then some of the other raiders in his guild who are hard core players.

[Lolites]

With the right corruption, a player can do up to 40% more Dps then they normally could. Thats just really piss poor fucking game design

40% more than without a corruption? eh, maybe under right circumstances
40% more than with other, "worse" corruptions? not by any chance

[SirCowdog]

cant really talk about it without seeing your char, might be weak weapon or bad stat distribution, but given that it did 20% at patchwerk there is something wrong either with the simulation or with your gear...
anyhow, sim and reality are often different, mine 9% of damage as blood DK on ilvl 460 wasnt from sim, but real dungeon dps

you are either joking or you have never seen mythic level raider OR corruped item in your life...

I suggest you check out Preach's video on the subject. Differences of 40% or more are possible, depending on the class and if the procs line up or not. And this is a guy playing pretty near the top end of Mythic raiding. I don't even like the guy, or most of his content. But I find it hard to argue against what he's saying about corrupted gear.

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With the right corruption, a player can do up to 40% more Dps then they normally could. Thats just really piss poor fucking game design

Not Joking, Preach video , and others have proved this with Raid logs . Shit he even had his wife play his toon as a test and she did about 30% more dps then some of the other raiders in his guild who are hard core players.

ROFL! Yeah, I was just typing that out in response to the same person when your post dropped.

And in that test Preach did, those players were not idiots. They were other members of his raid who are practiced at the Mythic level.

[Lolites]

Not Joking, Preach video , and others have proved this with Raid logs . Shit he even had his wife play his toon as a test and she did about 30% more dps then some of the other raiders in his guild who are hard core players.

i guess its on the internet so its true... i never seen anyone in raids/ghigh keys do so much more thanks to corruption, so i remain skeptical

[Djuntas]

At least more people are realising it now. Buy your +15 every week, buy BOE's...etc

Honestly, as a achievement whore all I do is grind gold AH playing, its the most efficient way to get many of the worse grinds done. In 8.3 Im going to spend about 3-5 million gold for the +15 mount, and 500k or w/e price will be for the new glory in raid. And maybe some other stuff.

[Dystemper]

I suggest you check out Preach's video on the subject. Differences of 40% or more are possible, depending on the class and if the procs line up or not. And this is a guy playing pretty near the top end of Mythic raiding. I don't even like the guy, or most of his content. But I find it hard to argue against what he's saying about corrupted gear.

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ROFL! Yeah, I was just typing that out in response to the same person when your post dropped.

I mean proof is in the pudding. If these Corrupted Items were not so OP, then they would not be selling for millions of gold , Playyers would not be buying up Tokens to afford them, and this would not even be a issue

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i guess its on the internet so its true... i never seen anyone in raids/ghigh keys do so much more thanks to corruption, so i remain skeptical

When they are backing it up with Logs and the same thing is being said by multiple sources , yeah its true

[Lolites]

I mean proof is in the pudding. If these Corrupted Items were not so OP, then they would not be selling for millions of gold , Playyers would not be buying up Tokens to afford them, and this would not even be a issue

since there was no price spike for tokens we know there was almost no increase in their sales so... no, people dont buy tokens to buy the gear, or very few people do so...
as for selling it for milions, have you NEVER been to auction before 8.3?! BoE items were on AH for milions before corruption even existed...

[Dystemper]

since there was no price spike for tokens we know there was almost no increase in their sales so... no, people dont buy tokens to buy the gear, or very few people do so...
as for selling it for milions, have you NEVER been to auction before 8.3?! BoE items were on AH for milions before corruption even existed...

I think its obvious that now you are just being argumentative and contrarian , because there is not a big spike in Token prices does not mean people arre not buying them. I refuse to buy tokens to spend a hundred bucks on a Wrist and ring that will give me a cazy DPS boost. But we all know those people exist. We call them whales

[BrintoSFJ]

No, WoW is not pay2win. Pay2win is when the game developers/publishers design game in a way where player's power are solely bought from devs/publishers and players can never obtain the same power as pay2win customers within the time period of same tier.

For example : if a game has a gacha that drops high tier weapon that can never be found by playing the game. Pay2win customers will get those weapons long before normal customers and by the time normal players finally get their hands on those weapons, devs release the next tier of weapon in gacha, making sure normal players can never catch up to pay2win players. It will be even more pay2win if these weapons can never be sold on auction or traded with other players.

Or if a game directly sells top tier items to players which can never be found in game.

Is WoW like that? No, WoW is way too far away from it. WoW is a pretty good example of how a f2p or b2p should run. Sadly it is not f2p/b2p and that is where I find WoW to be apprehensive.

[Lolites]

When they are backing it up with Logs and the same thing is being said by multiple sources , yeah its true

still, i prefer to believe to what i saw with my own eyes than logst that might be tempered with (you know, choice of the "right" classes, slowing down on dps on purpose and shit like that...)
seen a lot of people with TD in raids and M+, none have it for more than 10% dps whatever they did... so sorry, but i wont accept second or third hand info over my own experience...

[reauxmont]

cant really talk about it without seeing your char, might be weak weapon or bad stat distribution, but given that it did 20% at patchwerk there is something wrong either with the simulation or with your gear...
anyhow, sim and reality are often different, mine 9% of damage as blood DK on ilvl 460 wasnt from sim, but real dungeon dps

What kind of dungeon DPS? Total over the whole dungeon?

I don't think it has anything to do with my gear, but feel free to take a look: armory link. It's probably just an advantage that I'm spending 30-40% of my time in meta, which boosts my health to 1.2mil, making TD even more effective.

[Lolites]

I think its obvious that now you are just being argumentative and contrarian , because there is not a big spike in Token prices does not mean people arre not buying them. I refuse to buy tokens to spend a hundred bucks on a Wrist and ring that will give me a cazy DPS boost. But we all know those people exist. We call them whales

no, thats just basic economy, im accountant so let me explain it to you: when there is higher demand for something (in this case token) supply have to accomodate it, and its not immediate change, it takes some time, even if its only single day, it shows as spike in price, even if the price actualy ends on the same spot it started on, there is visible movement, there hasnt been visible movement on token price, hence there was not any significant movement on either supply or demand of tokens

sure, there are some people who bought tokens for the gear who wouldnt buy the token otherwise, but from the prcie movement we KNOW that it was so few of them it have zero impact on token price, so yes, there were some, but very few (this will be just assumption based on experience, but when there was no significant movement i would put the amount of token sold might increase by up to 1%)

[vashe9]

What's the difference between buying it at AH or looting it via a ridiculously easy Normal raid / +2/3 mm+ / random emissary or vision...

[SirCowdog]

i wont accept second or third hand info over my own experience...

I think you should reconsider that point of view. First hand knowledge is often very powerful. But when you have an experienced expert telling you something, that also carries a lot of weight.

As I said before, I don't particularly care for Preach in a general sense. But I respect that he's been operating at the Mythic level for quite awhile, and knows what he's talking about in terms of raw data such as logs. I really do recommend you watch his video on corrupted gear. It's only ~30 minutes, isn't filled with sensational bullshit or anything of that nature. It's just straight talk about the effects and performance of Corrupted gear.

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im accountant so let me explain it to you

What was it you literally just said in a previous post? "i guess its on the internet so its true..."

I hope you can recognize the irony here. ;D

[vashe9]

I think its obvious that now you are just being argumentative and contrarian , because there is not a big spike in Token prices does not mean people arre not buying them. I refuse to buy tokens to spend a hundred bucks on a Wrist and ring that will give me a cazy DPS boost. But we all know those people exist. We call them whales

Natural selection. These people deserve to be abused

[StPaul]

P2W is a mechanic that enables you to get in-game benefits for cash that IS NOT OBTAINABLE OTHERWISE. Everything else is pay 2 skip or whatever. There is nothing p2w in wow

[Lolites]

But when you have an experienced expert telling you something, that also carries a lot of weight.

fair point, IF the expert is impartial, which a content creator making money from it simply cant be...
i dont know Preach so i wont judge him, but majority of content creators bent with the "wind" and do content people will like, which sadly in most cases is whining, ranting or complaining...

[Nerovar]

No, WoW is not pay2win. Pay2win is when the game developers/publishers design game in a way where player's power are solely bought from devs/publishers and players can never obtain the same power as pay2win customers within the time period of same tier.

For example : if a game has a gacha that drops high tier weapon that can never be found by playing the game. Pay2win customers will get those weapons long before normal customers and by the time normal players finally get their hands on those weapons, devs release the next tier of weapon in gacha, making sure normal players can never catch up to pay2win players. It will be even more pay2win if these weapons can never be sold on auction or traded with other players.

Or if a game directly sells top tier items to players which can never be found in game.

Is WoW like that? No, WoW is way too far away from it. WoW is a pretty good example of how a f2p or b2p should run. Sadly it is not f2p/b2p and that is where I find WoW to be apprehensive.

That's a really weird definition of pay-to-win considering most people define pay-to-win as "getting an advantage by investing money" or simply "having purchasable things that are not cosmetic".
It seems like you willingly defined pay-to-win in a way that would specifically exclude WoW from this definition.

[Eurhetemec]

I mean does Blizzard release info on token market? Does the token market now not mean token bought gold from the past is in play? I am not saying other wise. But I am saying for someone slinging "facts" that odds are you are tossing 3rd party guesses and lack of depth. Also overall token sells could mean a lot of things. If you had 4 million players 2 patches ago and now you have 2 million the fact they stay the same or only slightly drop means those that are left have always been the heavy token purchasers for example. I cannot prove it, so I will not include it in my case, but it goes to show that you cannot just blindly throw out a figure likely guessed upon by a third party (possibly inaccurate) and use it a baseline in a game most people believe (again, a 3rd party guess thats possibly inaccuate) is in population decline. A pretty big one at that.

Why don't you click on the link upthread, read all the info, and then come back to this, eh? You keep talking about "3rd party guesses" but you literally, I really mean literally do not know what you are talking about. Go read and your ignorance in this issue.

Token sales are trending downwards. There's just no way they're part of this. Even if we bought your less players buying more tokens theory, we'd see a spike at the right time. There was none.

[Lolites]

What was it you literally just said in a previous post? "i guess its on the internet so its true..."

I hope you can recognize the irony here. ;D

fair point with the irony, but my explanation holds anyway as its based on basic economy