Toxic M+ Leavers

[Thzz]

but it’s nowhere near as bad as is perceived. Holy is much worse, any group that would take you when holy and not disc probably isn’t worth joining.

Reading the posts though, I’m starting to think I’ve just been very unfortunate with group finding.

perception is reality also not sure RNG plays a big factor in group finding , especially over the sample size you mention.

dont know how to explain your invite problem. I started running mythics for the first time ever about a month ago (to date for me >50+ 5-9s, >20 10-15s,only in the last week or so did I break 1000 for .io, I was advantaged early on with gear I bought .. ive made tons from AH)

I can remember NOT getting into group I selected maybe 5-10 times.

but like others have said. none of this should matter until 15+.

[OFiveNine]

Tbh i'm only doing for keys for the time idc about the loot so imma dip if the group is bad

[Garymorilix]

I am a typical high score player joining low keys (think: groups with 2k-2.5k score below mine), and I understand that I'm joining in groups with much less knowledge, so fiesta is expected to happen at one point or another in the run. I expect other people in my position to understand the same: they have no excuse to quit.

I think the score-appropriate players are much more likely to quit, because (unlike me) they join the run to time the key and get score, and because they lack experience to assess the likelihood of timing a certain key with the group at hand. They often even lack experience to assess the chances of still timing the key after some hiccups mid-run... I was recently in a +16 Underrot key where the key holder rage quit in the middle of the run after a 2nd random wipe, and we still timed it 4-man.

The riskiest decision you can make is inviting a "high score" player who's already ~300 points above you but still needs your key for score. You might get a player who does not believe your group can time a key, will still give it a shot because of score, but plans to quit on the first sight of trouble.

If we are talking 3k+ people on +15 runs then yes, mostly those people are aware what they join but what you have here is an extreme situation.
Obviously those who join groups like this won't leave and the discussion is not about them.

"High score" does not mean they have to be top 100. High score generally means the second situation you presented: guy has higher score than what is needed but they might need this dungeon timed right now. Afterall, if they had the score for it and could do higher keys why would they want to time your key?

Reality is there are differences between failures.
What was the reason for those 2 random wipes? Where did you wipe, how much time it took to recover?
Underrot wipes are generally lethal as you don't get new respawn locations and bosses are notoriously hard for PuGs hence a single wipe on Tyrannical is a lost key.
Pair this with the fact that most people still do not know the shortcut even after almost 2 years of the dungeons existence.

Tank caused wipes give you the impression that the tank is trash and you won't roll the dice on whether he will fail another 3 times, especially if the 2 random wipes were idiotic.
Healer caused wipes simply mean the healer cannot manage the incoming damage for whatever reason.
DPS caused wipes are very rare in the 15-18 range (unless it's explosive) but the general sign of bad DPS would be... well.. bad DPS.
If a guy constantly does tank dps on every single pack then most people simply won't carry. This is my stance.

Everyone has the right to ditch any group, this is given.
Whether they are in the right or wrong is also pretty black-n-white, you can easily identify whether they are dicks or have a legit claim
BUT
you will need provide much more details for that than "lol dps ragequit cuz we had 2 random wipes".

No wipes are random by nature. There is not a single mechanic in the game that's like "okay, you all randomly die now".
I have failed pulls many times and owned up to it. All I did was type a simple "mb sorry" in chat and noone gave a fuck OR someone left. It doesn't matter to me, happens. It's actually very easy to identify who fucks up and why.

But the notion of a "random wipe" is inherently toxic. You basically say that as long as it's your fault or your friend's then it's not "we fucked up and you have the right to ditch the key because now we won't time it because of us and you don't wanna waste time" but a "oops, how did that happen? unlucky".

People will be much more friendly to you if you actually own up to your mistakes rather than stay quiet and hope they don't care. This goes for both ingame and irl.

[ID811717]

Tank caused wipes give you the impression that the tank is trash and you won't roll the dice on whether he will fail another 3 times, especially if the 2 random wipes were idiotic.
Healer caused wipes simply mean the healer cannot manage the incoming damage for whatever reason.
DPS caused wipes are very rare in the 15-18 range (unless it's explosive) but the general sign of bad DPS would be... well.. bad DPS.
If a guy constantly does tank dps on every single pack then most people simply won't carry. This is my stance.

[...]

No wipes are random by nature. There is not a single mechanic in the game that's like "okay, you all randomly die now".
I have failed pulls many times and owned up to it. All I did was type a simple "mb sorry" in chat and noone gave a fuck OR someone left. It doesn't matter to me, happens. It's actually very easy to identify who fucks up and why.

But the notion of a "random wipe" is inherently toxic. You basically say that as long as it's your fault or your friend's then it's not "we fucked up and you have the right to ditch the key because now we won't time it because of us and you don't wanna waste time" but a "oops, how did that happen? unlucky".

People will be much more friendly to you if you actually own up to your mistakes rather than stay quiet and hope they don't care. This goes for both ingame and irl.

I think your mindset is extremely counter-productive in M+. You cannot fix what has already happened. So instead of trying to attribute the blame, forget what just happened and focus on what's in front of you. Whenever someone fails, the first thought in your head should be about how you can personally fix it in real time, not an impulse to just give up and name&shame that player afterwards. When the fiesta is resolved, your only goal should be timing the key against any odds (again - not wasting even a second to name&shame someone). Making another player feel bad (or just trying to educate them) during the run does not advance any of my goals (unless it's a very specific suggestion I want them to follow in the next pull) - it only serves to distract myself (and distract that other player) from the run.

If I ever discuss the mistakes of other players, I make a point to only ever do that after the run is over. I have seen way too many runs end because two players went at each other's throats in the middle of the run about which one of them did or did not do something wrong. There were cases were I took misplaced blame on myself just to make such players shut up; especially if there was a remote chance it was actually my bad. I know how it feels to afterwards carefully go through my VoDs and logs, and find out that the player blaming me was actually the one who failed (e.g. failed a shroud skip).

Everyone makes mistakes, and the only ones that matter are my own mistakes - those sting; it means I just got outplayed by the game, and need to improve. Everything else are random fuckups and wipes, as far as I am concerned... If you are a flawless player, you'll quickly rise up in score and in key levels you do, and end up in playing in R1 streamer groups within months of grinding. You're probably not flawless, but you'll still rise to the score bracket where you actually belong. Blaming others for being stuck at X score is the delusional choice. And likewise, I know some people on this forum are ready to hurt themselves (by quitting a run 30+ minutes into it) just so they can punish the "bad players" (who apparently do not deserve to complete the run). I'm not one of them, it goes against anything I value.

Attributing the blame is actually hard. More often than not there's a domino effect in play where one player's misplay leads to another player's misplay, snowballing out of control. The buck can stop at many different players, but each of them fails to react appropriately. When players do step up and not permit this, you end up seeing that big pulls or boss fights can be finished in spite of the tank, the healer or a DPS player being dead for a while. Furthermore, if someone body pulls an extra pack, and you cannot handle it (no matter if you are healer, tank, or DPS) - I would say you should consider it your own fuck-up as well, for not being able to step up and handle it. A small fuck-up, not something I'll lose my sleep over, but worth reflecting on...

Everyone has the right to ditch any group, this is given.
Whether they are in the right or wrong is also pretty black-n-white, you can easily identify whether they are dicks or have a legit claim
BUT
you will need provide much more details for that than "lol dps ragequit cuz we had 2 random wipes".

On a fortified-teeming week we killed Elder Leaxa, then cleared trash to and wiped on Sporecaller Zancha (skipping Cragmaw) before 12:00/33:00 on the clock. I think that's all someone needs to know. It does not matter how to attribute the blame for any fuckups throughout these 12 minutes - this timer is extremely good for the progress in the dungeon; you can put me in this situation in a +23 or +24 key (with a better group than +16 pug) and we will time it.

High score generally means the second situation you presented: guy has higher score than what is needed but they might need this dungeon timed right now. Afterall, if they had the score for it and could do higher keys why would they want to time your key?

Playing very high keys requires a lot of focus and communication from everyone. It can be very draining, especially if you pug or if your premade has people who tilt too much. After the pushing is over and everyone's energy is at 0, you'll see players go actually relax in what are really low keys for them, with no difficulty and stakes in them. Or sometimes you want to test something in this environment, and now the echoes farm is an additional motivation.

[Garymorilix]

I think your mindset is extremely counter-productive in M+. You cannot fix what has already happened. So instead of trying to attribute the blame, forget what just happened and focus on what's in front of you. Whenever someone fails, the first thought in your head should be about how you can personally fix it in real time, not an impulse to just give up and name&shame that player afterwards. When the fiesta is resolved, your only goal should be timing the key against any odds (again - not wasting even a second to name&shame someone). Making another player feel bad (or just trying to educate them) during the run does not advance any of my goals (unless it's a very specific suggestion I want them to follow in the next pull) - it only serves to distract myself (and distract that other player) from the run.

If I ever discuss the mistakes of other players, I make a point to only ever do that after the run is over. I have seen way too many runs end because two players went at each other's throats in the middle of the run about which one of them did or did not do something wrong. There were cases were I took misplaced blame on myself just to make such players shut up; especially if there was a remote chance it was actually my bad. I know how it feels to afterwards carefully go through my VoDs and logs, and find out that the player blaming me was actually the one who failed (e.g. failed a shroud skip).

Everyone makes mistakes, and the only ones that matter are my own mistakes - those sting; it means I just got outplayed by the game, and need to improve. Everything else are random fuckups and wipes, as far as I am concerned... If you are a flawless player, you'll quickly rise up in score and in key levels you do, and end up in playing in R1 streamer groups within months of grinding. You're probably not flawless, but you'll still rise to the score bracket where you actually belong. Blaming others for being stuck at X score is the delusional choice. And likewise, I know some people on this forum are ready to hurt themselves (by quitting a run 30+ minutes into it) just so they can punish the "bad players" (who apparently do not deserve to complete the run). I'm not one of them, it goes against anything I value.

Attributing the blame is actually hard. More often than not there's a domino effect in play where one player's misplay leads to another player's misplay, snowballing out of control. The buck can stop at many different players, but each of them fails to react appropriately. When players do step up and not permit this, you end up seeing that big pulls or boss fights can be finished in spite of the tank, the healer or a DPS player being dead for a while. Furthermore, if someone body pulls an extra pack, and you cannot handle it (no matter if you are healer, tank, or DPS) - I would say you should consider it your own fuck-up as well, for not being able to step up and handle it. A small fuck-up, not something I'll lose my sleep over, but worth reflecting on...



On a fortified-teeming week we killed Elder Leaxa, then cleared trash to and wiped on Sporecaller Zancha (skipping Cragmaw) before 12:00/33:00 on the clock. I think that's all someone needs to know. It does not matter how to attribute the blame for any fuckups throughout these 12 minutes - this timer is extremely good for the progress in the dungeon; you can put me in this situation in a +23 or +24 key (with a better group than +16 pug) and we will time it.



Playing very high keys requires a lot of focus and communication from everyone. It can be very draining, especially if you pug or if your premade has people who tilt too much. After the pushing is over and everyone's energy is at 0, you'll see players go actually relax in what are really low keys for them, with no difficulty and stakes in them. Or sometimes you want to test something in this environment, and now the echoes farm is an additional motivation.

I don't know where you got the impression that I stop mid-run to talk to anyone who fucks up.

I am the tank. I have done hundreds of runs. I can tell if any given fuck up is a lost timer or not. And most of the time I finish dungeons anyways, but when I specifically want to time it OR just don't want to waste that extra 20-30 mins on a dungeon I just quit, not saying a word.
I usually respons to whispers saying "fuck me" by telling them why I quit and that I'm not there to boost people who can't avoid obvious mechanics.

What you said is true: the only mistakes that matter to you are your own.

The issue with this statement in general is that not everyone adapts to this mentality. If someone refuses to pay attention or fix their own mistakes (for 20 minutes, not a big requirement tbh, if you're that exhausted don't queue for runs that want to time).
At that point you are looking at players who just don't give a fuck.
That mentality cannot match with someone like me who likes to give a fuck: if I wanna not give a fuck I won't play in a competitive environment, which M+ is.
Ninja pulling is generally not an issue with most affixes but it instantly ruins bolstering runs.

Attributing the blame is very easy. That doesn't mean I have to shame the person failing but I can leave if I want to.
Sporecaller Zancha is one of the easiest bosses where you can identify mistakes on.
There are 2 mechanics, one for the tank and one for everyone else. You can very easily tell who fucks up.

Point is, there is only so far you can go with fixing your own mistakes.
In a PuG environment it is not mandatory for me or anyone else to finish a run where you feel like everybody else is hindering you without a care.
I'm glad that you like boosting people 2k under your score, those are lucky people, everyone loves a carry.
This however does not mean that everyone has to adapt to your standards.

I don't write here to change your opinion, I merely point out actually legit reasons why people would leave certain runs.
Because at the end of the day nothing is random.
And as you said, if you don't identify the problem you cannot fix it. And sometimes when you can't fix the problem it's better not dealing with it. Simple.

[arr0gance]

I'm a trash player hardstuck at around ~2k IO. I have no desire to push it any higher and I have no desire to raid (despite being a former CE raider). My solution for shit runs is simple (if I'm lead): I just boot everybody from the fucking group.

How do you do it? Easy. First, convert your party into a raid. Then just use this macro:

/rw Later nerds.
/kick raid2
/kick raid3
/kick raid4
/kick raid5

This will remove everybody from the group instantly. It is 100% effective in dealing with shit players, shit groups and shit in general. Alt+F4 immediately afterwards to make sure you don't get salty players messaging you.

[Laughingjack]

There are two sides to every tale. ALOT of people especially at 15 will not abandon a doomed key or expect the party to put up 20 plus deaths to get it done.

[ydraw]

actualy that does seem to be the common trend,its why wow exploded in popularity,it was the first fairly polished casual mmo,its why wrath peaked in subs with its extreme casual raids and dungeons,its why cataclysm saw wow's first decline early on with the adition of hard dungeons and raids,not at the end like these days,and i recal reading a poll about playing on averege chosing easy or normal in games they play

Casual doesn't mean "easy".

The major difference between wrath and TBC was that they didn't have anything like attunements, which is what actually prevented people from participating in raid content in particular.

[deenman]

Casual doesn't mean "easy".

The major difference between wrath and TBC was that they didn't have anything like attunements, which is what actually prevented people from participating in raid content in particular.

hahahaha,well someone didnt play one or both i take it,i played both,tbc hc dungeons were tuned for raiders,even people in t6 could find it decent,meanwile wwrath hc's could literaly be done naked,also raids were astronomicaly harder in tbc,kara and gruul were on the easy side,but t5 and swp were far harder than anything else in wrath besides some of the ulduar hard modes

[ydraw]

also raids were astronomicaly harder in tbc,kara and gruul were on the easy side,but t5 and swp were far harder than anything else in wrath besides some of the ulduar hard modes

The dungeons in Wrath were easier for sure, but the raids were not. Numerous fights in WOTLK were harder than any TBC content with the exception of Muru. E.G. Heroic Lich King, Alone in the Darkness, Anub'Arak, firefighter etc.

But in WOTLK you could at least attempt these fights without having to run every member of your raid through every previous raid in the expansion first.

[deenman]

The dungeons in Wrath were easier for sure, but the raids were not. Numerous fights in WOTLK were harder than any TBC content with the exception of Muru. E.G. Heroic Lich King, Alone in the Darkness, Anub'Arak, firefighter etc.

But in WOTLK you could at least attempt these fights without having to run every member of your raid through every previous raid in the expansion first.

yeah some figths in wrath were pretty good,but you could literaly count on on one hand....meanwile wrath had complete joke raids difficlty wise like naxx maylos,trial,most off icc with the worst timegate and biggest nerf in raiding history

tbc atleast was the first expansion,it was the first time after naxx 60 they tried making actual challenging raiding content,and i would say it worked out ok,wel after they fixed the bugged bosses

[ydraw]

yeah some figths in wrath were pretty good,but you could literaly count on on one hand....meanwile wrath had complete joke raids difficlty wise like naxx maylos,trial,most off icc with the worst timegate and biggest nerf in raiding history

tbc atleast was the first expansion,it was the first time after naxx 60 they tried making actual challenging raiding content,and i would say it worked out ok,wel after they fixed the bugged bosses

Trial wasn't exactly a joke difficulty wise - Anub was one of the longest lived bosses of all time. The knock on Trial is that it was just a pretty boring raid aesthetically. I personally thought beasts of northrend was one of the best raid encounters of the expansion.

I think the difficulty of TBC raids bar Sunwell is exaggerated. The raid fights themselves weren't that hard, what made raiding in TBC challenging was finding 25 people who were attuned and weren't window lickers.

When TBC Classic comes out I am pretty sure people will find all the raids up until Sunwell a lot easier than they remember. The average player is way, way better at the game now than they were in 2006. TBC heroic dungeons won't seem so hard to people who have been running Mythic+15s for 4-5 years.

[PtrN]

I think the difficulty of TBC raids bar Sunwell is exaggerated. The raid fights themselves weren't that hard, what made raiding in TBC challenging was finding 25 people who were attuned and weren't window lickers.

Not to mention the entry raid (Kara) was 10 man. So if you were trying to gear up through Kara into the 25-man raids your guild needed at a minimum 3 Kara groups.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

I invited a healer like that for mechagon junkyard. The route naturally involves killing the packs that have the little troggs that fixate on people.

i would have left to if the tank would have done toggs first without taking sapbots on the left gunker side its a giga low score mistake.

[Wuusah]

two days ago I made a group for mecha workshop 16. We go in and wipe at first boss and there wasn't even any big fails. The pug healer with 470+ ilvl and ~2k rio was rocking some 30k hps and couldn't keep the group alive. After the wipe he says "no offense but this is no +16 group" and leaves. We inv a new healer and do the +15 without any problems whatsoever.

Yesterday I did Underrot +16 with a pug heal who struggled hard at 2nd boss to keep us alive. A look at his hps shows my tank (BrM Monk) hps being higher than his hps.

What is it with well geared, decent rio healers who suck at healing so hard?

[Zantera]

two days ago I made a group for mecha workshop 16. We go in and wipe at first boss and there wasn't even any big fails. The pug healer with 470+ ilvl and ~2k rio was rocking some 30k hps and couldn't keep the group alive. After the wipe he says "no offense but this is no +16 group" and leaves. We inv a new healer and do the +15 without any problems whatsoever.

Yesterday I did Underrot +16 with a pug heal who struggled hard at 2nd boss to keep us alive. A look at his hps shows my tank (BrM Monk) hps being higher than his hps.

What is it with well geared, decent rio healers who suck at healing so hard?

I think healers can coast a bit because some weeks have nothing to heal and if you get a good tank and decent dps you can get by even if you're not that good. Then you get a bursting or grievous week and that's when it really shows. Also the fact healers are usually in high demand means they get into groups easier.

[Wuusah]

I think healers can coast a bit because some weeks have nothing to heal and if you get a good tank and decent dps you can get by even if you're not that good. Then you get a bursting or grievous week and that's when it really shows. Also the fact healers are usually in high demand means they get into groups easier.

I guess tyrannical is also the big issue here. In Fortified weeks you can just do small pulls and still beat the timer without ever challenging the healer. In tyrannical weeks you need to have the necessary dps/hps to beat bosses in addition to actually understanding the boss. You can't just brute force your way through a boss by bursting him down before he does something dangerous.

[mauserr]

i would have left to if the tank would have done toggs first without taking sapbots on the left gunker side its a giga low score mistake.

And who said that I did that first? I certainly in my post didn't. I only mentioned the route took the troggs for score and that the retard of a healer assumed I wasn't keeping aggro on the troggs. Get your shit straight.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

And who said that I did that first? I certainly in my post didn't. I only mentioned the route took the troggs for score and that the retard of a healer assumed I wasn't keeping aggro on the troggs. Get your shit straight.

you did troggs this wahts wrong get your route straight go an try to do troggs rnd agrro ppl on a 24-26 keys and see what happens with raging or fort/mob affix

tanks that palying the wrong route is the worst that can happen and its tilting too a waste of time, especially on a echo farm making a 15 min run into to a 25 min run for no reason

[deenman]

Trial wasn't exactly a joke difficulty wise - Anub was one of the longest lived bosses of all time. The knock on Trial is that it was just a pretty boring raid aesthetically. I personally thought beasts of northrend was one of the best raid encounters of the expansion.

I think the difficulty of TBC raids bar Sunwell is exaggerated. The raid fights themselves weren't that hard, what made raiding in TBC challenging was finding 25 people who were attuned and weren't window lickers.

When TBC Classic comes out I am pretty sure people will find all the raids up until Sunwell a lot easier than they remember. The average player is way, way better at the game now than they were in 2006. TBC heroic dungeons won't seem so hard to people who have been running Mythic+15s for 4-5 years.

yeah,many of the raids in tbc were really hard at start because of bugs,and some were mecanicaly overwelming compared to what came before tbc,like mag's lair that was nerfed,and yeah,people wont have many issues with tbc raids,but wrath will be even easier,personaly im looking forward to a classic cata more than wrath lol