If Horrific Visions is anything to go by, Torghast is DOA

[VinceVega]

It depends how much of Horrific Visions they will actually use in Torghast. If Torghast is just a roguelike dungeon where you can unlock stuff for the run (akin to relics in Slay the Spire, for example) without these annoying affixes I think it'd be enjoyable enough for me - especially since it won't have any sort of shitty timer.

If it's like Horrific Visions where their definition of "fun" and "challenging" is throwing 15 different void zones/fears/stuns/affixes at you at the same time like you have right now (when using multiple masks) then I agree, it will completely tank, and deservedly so.

I don't see how you can make i more difficult in another way? For classes who can't do them solo you can group up. Other classes can solo. Moonkin, DH, Shamans etc.

In what way other than more health, more damage, more mechanics, more difficult mechanics can they make it more difficult?

This content with masks is optional after all.

[cparle87]

I can only speak for myself, and mention I do not enjoy Horrific Visions at this point in time. I tried to do it solo as a Resto Shaman, and it was extremely slow and inefficient. I was "forced" to respec to Enhancement, and even in this spec, I don't enjoy it. The reason is that it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of. It's like a solo version of Mythic+, a system I already despise.

I think you misunderstand the kind of system Visions are. It's not like the Mage Tower where the challenge is tailored to the abilities of your spec or role. Also some things to note from the rest of your post. You not liking a content does not make it bad. Your feelings are not other people's feelings and you should not speak for anyone but yourself. Being told that you need to change spec to do content does not make it bad. And do not use "people" as a cover to try to claim others agree with your points.

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I don't think anyone has a problem with that... Or at least, I hope they don't, because that would be silly. It has less to do with the content and more to do with it being the only avenue for the Cloak which in turn not only applies to the overall corruption system but even the Raid itself. If there were other reliable ways to do it it'd be pretty different. They've majorly adjusted the scaling for healers twice showing how wonky its been; as in not only solo healing scaling, but even group healing scaling initially not being worth the cost to add a healer. Add in that healers also favor different types of corruption to what anyone else would collect that isn't particularly great for AoE.

If they're tying that to the cloak, which ties to raid content and general power scale for the entire patch to this high-octane-adrenalin speedrun content, its pretty fair to be nervous about Torghast doing similar with Legendaries and whatever other systems could be attached. Tho with floors allowing you to choose different bonuses and drawbacks to those bonuses such as the Flameshock example I think Torghast has more potential to not screwing other roles.

I get your point, but I think you're missing one thing. You just need the cloak to do the raid, you don't need to max it out or do full clears or mask runs. Pointing to some future cases.

[Mendzia]

Lol if you don't like Visions then I can see why someone wouldn't like Torghast.

Where did i say i do not like them?
If i think these are not super amazing it does not automatically mean i hate it.
Why do some people always see everything in black and white?
For me Vivions are meh... Nothing special nor bad. Middle ground.

Torghast has potential... but i will wait until we know basically anything because a lot systems look amazing on Blizzcon panels.

[kamuimac]

I supposed you missed the point that a key feature of Torghast is that it'll be different every run - Visions aren't. Plus it's not timed so you can take as long as you like - so you can play whatever you like.

which means it will be even more annoying and even less popular.

opening of last wing of lfr shows how failed idea visions are.

playerbase actively ignores both cloacks and visions.

thorgast is wasted time and wasted resources

[Nynax]

I supposed you missed the point that a key feature of Torghast is that it'll be different every run - Visions aren't. Plus it's not timed so you can take as long as you like - so you can play whatever you like.

I'm holding my judgement on how "different" every run actually feels. The history of procedurally generated content is "sometimes we make you turn left instead of right!" and "look, there is a 'special boss' in this room this time! Haha, we surprised you this time!"

I mean, Diablo is technically different every time you play! Yet it still manages to be the most repetitive feeling game Blizzard owns.

[MrLachyG]

We know the WoW team is working on new content literally 2 expansions before they hit live servers. This means, even before BfA released, they were probably already working on Horrific Visions and, by extension, Torghast. No matter how little you enjoy Horrific Visions, Torghast was already designed to be pretty much the same thing long before they had any chance to get any feedback.

Blizzard has completely gambled that people would enjoy Horrific Visions and doubled down on this idea in Torghast. This whole single run - "do your best" kind of content.

I can only speak for myself, and mention I do not enjoy Horrific Visions at this point in time. I tried to do it solo as a Resto Shaman, and it was extremely slow and inefficient. I was "forced" to respec to Enhancement, and even in this spec, I don't enjoy it. The reason is that it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of. It's like a solo version of Mythic+, a system I already despise.

Horrific Visions is a place designed for AoE melee/hunter DPS. It's a system that takes a long time to do, so it feels more like a chore than fun. It's also a system that many people already are getting bored by. This means people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months.

From what I understand, this Torghast system is the very core of the whole expansion. It's the Artifact Weapons of Shadowlands. It's the Island Expedition / Heart of Azeroth of Shadowlands. It's the place to get your transmogs, the place to get your mounts, the place to spend several hours every week.

From my standpoint, if I feel like I have to do these, and I also feel inefficient as a Resto Shaman in there. Then, they try to tell me to "just respec or find a group", I'm out. Not only from the system, but from the entire expansion spider web of systems.

If people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months, how is Torghast supposed to last an entire expansion?

no not really. your entire premise is that Horrific Visions will be exactly the same as Torghast will. Torghast will be a different experience every time though. also, the only thing that Torghast will uniquely do is to give you materials for a legendary item - yes it will have AP but you don't have to farm Torghast for AP because the devs have said that you can get that from a variety of sources. We have no idea if you can get xmog or mounts from there. Comparing it to Islands is just silly

[InflaterMouse]

I supposed you missed the point that a key feature of Torghast is that it'll be different every run - Visions aren't. Plus it's not timed so you can take as long as you like - so you can play whatever you like.

And honestly visions were/are refreshing. I am fine with content like this going forward. Would love seeing them scale as much as player skill does. If that happens I feel like we will see some amazing displays of skill in the future.

[Xath]

I'm just hoping you aren't limited in entries. It feels like i have to do 5 mask every vision run or I'm wasting mementos and sockets and that's super annoying.

[Tradu]

That's not how development works. They're not literally working on the entire 10.0 expansion already. The teams that are no longer needed on BfA or SL are, which basically means early concept/prototype stuff. Some teams are way ahead of what we're seeing (artsy teams, for example), others are literally working on things just ahead of us(class/systems). If they were so far ahead of us on every (or even most) teams, they'd never be able to react to any feedback, and yet they occasionally do. We wouldn't have gotten Netherlight Crucible in Legion, for example.

[InflaterMouse]

I'm just hoping you aren't limited in entries. It feels like i have to do 5 mask every vision run or I'm wasting mementos and sockets and that's super annoying.

Yea pretty much. I walked into reset with 3 keys yesterday excited thinking I was going to get the pages I needed for the cloak and have one left. 3 keys later I had just enough which kind of ruins my plans for the mask runs for the week.

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I'm holding my judgement on how "different" every run actually feels. The history of procedurally generated content is "sometimes we make you turn left instead of right!" and "look, there is a 'special boss' in this room this time! Haha, we surprised you this time!"

I mean, Diablo is technically different every time you play! Yet it still manages to be the most repetitive feeling game Blizzard owns.

Yea I am thinking Diablo. Will be a cave with a different bend in the road, or the same type of cave with different types of mobs. Not sure they have the technology or man power to really make it that different unless they get some massive program upgrades which generates each encounter from the ground up. Then at some point you will see all the parameters they have in game and even if its a bit different it will still be the same.

[Tradu]

Thorghast will be different because there’s no FREAKIN AND FOKKIN timer.

Timers are the ruin for everyone who want to solo something and do not play a dps spec.

I as a blood dk completely gave up with visions because to reach a level that is worth a gear upgrade you have to wear tons of bis corrupted stuff plus forge of Titans talents complete plus cloak at level 9000. Just a big NO.

Get rid of timers everywhere and the game will be good again.

Tanks are perfectly fine in visions, you just can't play like a turtle. Even healers are fine(probably too good damage wise, even) after the nerfs.

[FlubberPuddy]

Where did i say i do not like them?
If i think these are not super amazing it does not automatically mean i hate it.
Why do some people always see everything in black and white?
For me Vivions are meh... Nothing special nor bad. Middle ground.

Torghast has potential... but i will wait until we know basically anything because a lot systems look amazing on Blizzcon panels.

Lol this response was obvious. Hence my "if" in the beginning. Where did I categorically say you do not like them?

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I enjoy visions. I'm hopeful for Torghast. Having it be randomized will certainly help it from getting stale for many people. Just as long as they don't time-gate it or require a currency to do it, it should hopefully go well.

[micwini]

"managing rng is too hard that means theres literally no way to manage rng"

ok zoomer

I am pretty sure I am older than you, judging by your response. There are so many different RNG aspects, that there is a decent chance you just get fucked. A few are fine and managable, but in visions I have encountered too many instances of "GG you lost" just because of RNG.

[Marrilaife]

Tanks are perfectly fine in visions, you just can't play like a turtle.

* If you have dps proc corruptions.

Gee, thanks Blizz I have -25% hp on mobs but I do half the damage of a semi-competent dps class (maybe except spriests, think they're fucked atm) and nowhere near close burst.

Yes, if you have maxed research / cloak / dps corruptions visions become much, much easier, for around 2-3 weeks people are doing 5 mask clear even with sub-optimal specs, but I dread going through the whole cycle with another fresh alt with shit gear, rank 1 cape and 0 research.

[Sliske]

We know the WoW team is working on new content literally 2 expansions before they hit live servers. This means, even before BfA released, they were probably already working on Horrific Visions and, by extension, Torghast. No matter how little you enjoy Horrific Visions, Torghast was already designed to be pretty much the same thing long before they had any chance to get any feedback.

Blizzard has completely gambled that people would enjoy Horrific Visions and doubled down on this idea in Torghast. This whole single run - "do your best" kind of content.

I can only speak for myself, and mention I do not enjoy Horrific Visions at this point in time. I tried to do it solo as a Resto Shaman, and it was extremely slow and inefficient. I was "forced" to respec to Enhancement, and even in this spec, I don't enjoy it. The reason is that it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of. It's like a solo version of Mythic+, a system I already despise.

Horrific Visions is a place designed for AoE melee/hunter DPS. It's a system that takes a long time to do, so it feels more like a chore than fun. It's also a system that many people already are getting bored by. This means people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months.

From what I understand, this Torghast system is the very core of the whole expansion. It's the Artifact Weapons of Shadowlands. It's the Island Expedition / Heart of Azeroth of Shadowlands. It's the place to get your transmogs, the place to get your mounts, the place to spend several hours every week.

From my standpoint, if I feel like I have to do these, and I also feel inefficient as a Resto Shaman in there. Then, they try to tell me to "just respec or find a group", I'm out. Not only from the system, but from the entire expansion spider web of systems.

If people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months, how is Torghast supposed to last an entire expansion?

Lets just get a few things straight:

1. Soloing any content as a healer has, since the dawn of time, been extremely slow. Ever tried leveling to 60 as a healing priest? How about a resto druid? The fact of the matter is, right now and since the start of Legion i believe, healers have had the easiest time they've ever had soloing content. They were given enormous damage buffs some time in Legion or WoD and they are actually capable of doing most if not all content now. Back in ye olden days your hpala could burst for probably 20% of a dps's damage, now, they can match them. You aren't getting more buffs than this - you're already too overpowered relative to every other expansion.

2. If you don't want to move out of damage... i don't know - go play GW2 i guess, where nothing does damage and you can stand AFK spamming auto attacks. Regardless, there'll be at least more leniency as said attacks won't be draining your timer in Torghast - there isn't one.

3. The 'designed for aoe/melee' stems from the timer, which will be going.

4. Yes, people are getting bored by it because they've already done it on average around 30 or 40 times by now (if your cloak is 14 that is).

5. I find it extremely bizarre that you play a healing spec, a role that entirely hinges on whether or not you have someone else around to play with and your response to being told to find a group is "im out." Do you solo raids too?

6. Probably because Torghast will be more of an event, where as right now most people are entering visions, absolutely butchering the place on 0 masks just to 5 chest it, then leaving for the week.

Which leads me to ask - is all of the above complaining really you failing to do 0 masks 5 chest? Come on. I did that as a 450 disc priest alt with green essences and had an orb to spare and 70% of a sanity bar. My main, a 471 paladin, can do it as tank, healer or dps and arrive at thrall / alleria with 3 orbs left. Unless you're seriously fretting over the once per week 470 item from 5 masking it - just don't. On the long run its not really impactful at all. Want loot? Use your healing spec to get into +15 dungeons instantly and spam them for an obscene amount of corrupted items. Get your 475 every week and with n'zoth and mythic bosses, you should easily get to 475 or already be at it.

Unless of course you're one of these lunatics that simultaneously doesn't do m+, doesn't raid, doesn't do arena and yet still thinks you should be able to overcome all challenges with ease... as a fucking healer.

[Soluna]

We know the WoW team is working on new content literally 2 expansions before they hit live servers. This means, even before BfA released, they were probably already working on Horrific Visions and, by extension, Torghast. No matter how little you enjoy Horrific Visions, Torghast was already designed to be pretty much the same thing long before they had any chance to get any feedback.

Blizzard has completely gambled that people would enjoy Horrific Visions and doubled down on this idea in Torghast. This whole single run - "do your best" kind of content.

I can only speak for myself, and mention I do not enjoy Horrific Visions at this point in time. I tried to do it solo as a Resto Shaman, and it was extremely slow and inefficient. I was "forced" to respec to Enhancement, and even in this spec, I don't enjoy it. The reason is that it's just stressful and annoying with all the stuff I gotta move out of. It's like a solo version of Mythic+, a system I already despise.

Horrific Visions is a place designed for AoE melee/hunter DPS. It's a system that takes a long time to do, so it feels more like a chore than fun. It's also a system that many people already are getting bored by. This means people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months.

From what I understand, this Torghast system is the very core of the whole expansion. It's the Artifact Weapons of Shadowlands. It's the Island Expedition / Heart of Azeroth of Shadowlands. It's the place to get your transmogs, the place to get your mounts, the place to spend several hours every week.

From my standpoint, if I feel like I have to do these, and I also feel inefficient as a Resto Shaman in there. Then, they try to tell me to "just respec or find a group", I'm out. Not only from the system, but from the entire expansion spider web of systems.

If people got bored of Horrific Visions in less than 2 months, how is Torghast supposed to last an entire expansion?

I guess you were blind/deaf when they were being interviewed and they said that Torghast will be vastly different from Horrific visions, but anything to keep the hate train going huh?

[MiiiMiii]

I guess you were blind/deaf when they were being interviewed and they said that Torghast will be vastly different from Horrific visions, but anything to keep the hate train going huh?

I hear it has no timer, and is more random, but other than that, it's fairly similar. It's still 1-5 man content where you "beat as much as possible before defeated". I also consider the Withered training in Legion to be similarly unfun.

I am certainly interested in learning more about the system, if you still think I am completely off the mark.

[Lolites]

I don't think anyone has a problem with that... Or at least, I hope they don't, because that would be silly. It has less to do with the content and more to do with it being the only avenue for the Cloak which in turn not only applies to the overall corruption system but even the Raid itself. If there were other reliable ways to do it it'd be pretty different. They've majorly adjusted the scaling for healers twice showing how wonky its been; as in not only solo healing scaling, but even group healing scaling initially not being worth the cost to add a healer. Add in that healers also favor different types of corruption to what anyone else would collect that isn't particularly great for AoE.

If they're tying that to the cloak, which ties to raid content and general power scale for the entire patch to this high-octane-adrenalin speedrun content, its pretty fair to be nervous about Torghast doing similar with Legendaries and whatever other systems could be attached. Tho with floors allowing you to choose different bonuses and drawbacks to those bonuses such as the Flameshock example I think Torghast has more potential to not screwing other roles.

i have people who did mad world (solo +5masks both org and sw) in healer specs, surely doing it without masks, without last boss, and if prefered in a group (which is the max NEEDED for cloak) shouldnt be problem then...

[MiiiMiii]

I tried to queue for LFR wing 4 today as DPS spec. Queue time? 2 hours. Wonder why people don't want to queue as Healer or Tank? In my opinion, because of how un-friendly dailies and horrific visions is to those roles.

Are you guys saying just because Torghast is more random and don't have a timer, all of the sudden people will be OK with being inefficient in Shadowlands and the role distribution will improve?

Just because there is no timer does not mean is it really inefficient to go in as a healer.