Mythic+ without timer

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

1. yes it can go past 15, but there is no point.
2. "requires more individual skill" yes while M+ since it has less people, you notice more if people are not pulling their weight, both VERY MUCH rely on individual skill, it is VERY easy for just 1 person to wipe the entire raid, on almost every boss fight here.
3. The bolded part... So its not about skill.... but about dealing with those 5 people who arnt skilled... so its about skill...
4. again you say "M+ is about skill, raiding is about coordination, and ability to deal with the people who fuck up" so... skill... the people who are not skilled enough, and being skilled...


literally you seem to have this weird superiority complex, both are about skill, just raiding since its in larger numbers, its easier to carry one or 2 bad players.

They both require skill but one requires more individual skill that was my only point. Mythic+ isn't easier its just as difficult but in a different way. I never meant to imply it takes no skill just less individual skill but more of others. I got ahead of myself there ill admit that. Mythic+ is more about individual skill but raiding is about others. I stepped out of bounds with some of my post.

Oh someone can wipe you but the amount of stuff an individual player has to worry about in a raid is usually less than in a dungeon at high levels. A raid boss is 5-11 minutes encounter but a dungeon has a trash and at high key levels everything is one shot mechanic. You have to execute strategy for like 30+ minutes vs 5-11 minutes.

[FelPlague]

They both require but one requires more that was my only point. Mythic+ isn't easier its just as difficult but in a different way. I never meant to imply it takes no skill just less individual skill but more of others. I might have gotten ahead of myself there ill admit that. Mythic+ is more about individual skill. I step out of bounds with some of my post. Oh someone can wipe you but the amount of stuff an individual player has to worry about in a raid is usually less than in a dungeon when mechanics start one shotting.

Yes, raiding requires more skill, one does. But the individual skill is much heavier in M+, if one person is bad its much harder, but if one person is overly good, its much easier.

1 person cannot carry a raid
1 person can 100% carry a dungeon.

and nah the stuff an individual has to worry about in a raid is higher then in a dungeon for sure.
most bosses in dungeons you have to worry about 1-2 things as dps.
raids is much higher then that.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Yes, raiding requires more skill, one does. But the individual skill is much heavier in M+, if one person is bad its much harder, but if one person is overly good, its much easier.

1 person cannot carry a raid
1 person can 100% carry a dungeon.

and nah the stuff an individual has to worry about in a raid is higher then in a dungeon for sure.
most bosses in dungeons you have to worry about 1-2 things as dps.
raids is much higher then that.

I think they're both hard but punish different skillets we can disagree though. On high keys it's more than 1-2 things check out the witches in waycrest. You have to interrupt the bosses, follow the witches special mechanics(there is 3 of these), dps down the mced person, not stack for the weird circle.

There are like 11 dungeons and completing high keys takes 30 or more minutes vs a 5-11 minute fight. At higher key levels trash mobs can one shot with like most abilities.

[Erous]

Mythic dungeons can go past 15 and require more individual skill but mythic raiding is about finding or sticking with 20 people long enough to kill a boss. It's not as much about skill. .

Well, individual skill and the effort to look up and plan how to skip mechanics. I don't mean that douchey. If it was skill alone I think the playerbase here would be less toxic.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Well, individual skill and the effort to look up and plan how to skip mechanics. I don't mean that douchey. If it was skill alone I think the playerbase here would be less toxic.

Nah it would be more lol. The online community is like 90% man children. League is an example the amount of people who play poorly but blame there teammates is insane. Karthus that push super hard despite having no escapes early game than whine about getting ganked.

[Revamp Man]

To be honest I’m not sure that change is a good idea either.

It makes the weekly chest even more important, and gearing that much faster when you have a decent chance every week, due to multiple choices, of getting a great upgrade on top of loot drops from actual content.

It won’t just be tied to m+ though

They are merging the pvp chest with it and also taking into account raid progress

[Gasparde]

mythic + popularity is falling down with each month.

That's because BFA is shittier than shit and the overall game population is falling with each month.

[Zephire]

The timer is a big part of the difficulty. Without the timer you'd just wait for CDs every pull and never need to pull multiple packs together.

Well, that's also how you could push, no? If it's so difficult that you need all CD's every time then you're really pushing it.

Point being, let people play it their way if they don't want to be on a leader board. What's the harm in that? If timed runs are what shows how skilled you are, then what does it matter that people wait for CD's, cheese or do like a 1 healer and 4 tanks run? Let them have their fun

[Fayolynn]

Here is a fix, place the key on number of deaths in the group.

0 deaths +5 to your key/key used
1 death, +4
2 deaths +3
3 deaths + 2
4-5 deaths +1
6-15 deaths +0
16-25 deaths -1

And so on. Once you start getting higher on number of deaths the more you lose.

Basing key upgrades that way makes zero sense. You literally benefit from minimizing the challange of the dungeon. Its the exact opposite of rewarding skill.

[h4rr0d]

But that’s the problem. The content is not challenging, the timer is what is. When I used to push keys in Legion, I was limited to the power of my gear not skill. My gear held me back because I couldn’t do the numbers to get higher. Before I stopped playing BFA, it was no different.

Is it too much to ask for a dungeon that actually has difficult mechanics, and requires progress and dedication, instead of the current zergfest?

It's tyrannical week. Go to shrine 18+ and please tell me, how 2nd boss is not challenging. And that boss is not 'numbers can't get higher' affair. Pretty much all of the damage is avoidable.

A 15+ key takes skill otherwise everyone would be doing it. I've asked aotc players and they've admitted from an individual skill point that mythic+ is harder than mythic raiding. The only difficulty behind mythic raiders is waiting for 5-10 people to stop fucking up.

Than farm keys to get gear you only need 50k dps overall to clear a 15. You can do that in 445 gear with the right class.

In a +15, gear will carry you easily on most weeks - I'm pretty sure I didn't time anything higher than 14 last week - but I've also timed +15 with multiple wipes several times.

For me personally, shit starts to get real somewhere around 18. Gear obviously helps a lot, but just gear won't be able to carry you anymore and you need to rely on skill to progress further.

[Ronald The Mcdonald]

Why not?

Is speedrunning mythic raids yielding greater rewards these days? Or do you get the same rewards for spending a whole week as Method would be getting for clearing in 2 hours?

Literally no difference.

When the whole system is based on a timely requirement one should not get the full rewards when not meeting said requirement. When a teacher assigns work to you due the next day and you don't turn it in until 3 days later without any kind of excuse except for "I wasn't prepared for it" you should only get partial or no credit at all. Not full credit compared to someone else who did it on time.

[Cleansing Totem]

Well, that's also how you could push, no? If it's so difficult that you need all CD's every time then you're really pushing it.

Point being, let people play it their way if they don't want to be on a leader board. What's the harm in that? If timed runs are what shows how skilled you are, then what does it matter that people wait for CD's, cheese or do like a 1 healer and 4 tanks run? Let them have their fun

Enrage timers exist for a reason

[dragi]

Problem is they want run without timer on keys >0 and get additional loot and upgraded key. But literally is no other option to judge run.

[Loveliest]

OK, here's the thing. The existence of a timer is a stress but it also pushes players to be better. For higher keys you need to actually do your part. Without timer there is no need to put yourself at risk and make big pulls. There is no need to learn to keep an eye on multiple targets, do interrupt, to stun, to use your defensive for the entire party's need.

On a side note, in my guild we get enough keys to help everyone out to get a 15 in time but somehow we still don't do it. Things taking too long or being "painful" with weaker players is still a thing - even if we don't do it to push the key and only do it for the bonus weekly loot for them. I still don't like spending an hour in a dungeon because we have half the dps it would require to make the timer or because people are inept at following basic tactics and we have to wipe till the stars align and a specific mechanic doesn't target said players. I think it would still be "toxic" but on a different level - you've failed a mechanic means you're wasting my time, whether you have a timer up or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is a fix, place the key on number of deaths in the group.

0 deaths +5 to your key/key used
1 death, +4
2 deaths +3
3 deaths + 2
4-5 deaths +1
6-15 deaths +0
16-25 deaths -1

And so on. Once you start getting higher on number of deaths the more you lose.

This would make it just as toxic. Cause weak players who can't make the timers probably die in shit as well. It's just how it is. I'd still choose you based on your "death raider io". Also - the moment when it looks like the party's gonna wipe, I'd bubble hearth cause I wouldn't want to screw up that death count or my death rio. And I kid you not, I would freaking not pull again if my bubble was on CD, just to make sure I have an escape if things go south.

Have you ever heard of the Undying / Immortal achievements? The death of someone else (so basically someone else's mistake) affecting YOUR loot is the best way to make something toxic. The stress of not dying would probably be even worse than a timer. A timer you can still do even if someone dies - cause you can probably brez him, but a death is a final penalty.

[Hoofey]

You used 3 tanks/2 healers and it took you 2 hours but managed to finish it? Congrats! You put the effort into it and made it, here is your reward and key upgrade.

That just wouldnt work for so many dungeons.

-Sisters in Waycrest has a built in timer, they'll just oneshot you when their bar fills up.
-Stonedude in Motherlode will kill you since you wont have the dps to kill his adds that are constantly chasing you, applying debuffs.
-3rd boss in Shrine will just MC you one by one since you dont have dps to break people out. Not to mention 2nd and last boss being close to impossible with low\almost no dps.
-2nd boss in temple will just overwhelm you with adds if you cant kill him after his 2nd intermission. 3rd boss will drain your healers mana, even if you do mechanics.
-Good luck with the 1000 spiders youll have on the last boss in Atal'dazar.

Probably a bunch of other bosses I cant remember, but you get the idea. The timer is there to give you an indication of how well prepared you are to handle said mechanics. If you're struggling with a +17 timer, that means you're already close to your limits when it comes to dealing with the dungeons mechanics.

M+ without a timer might get you to a +19/20, but at that point you'll end up wiping for hours.
What makes you think people will suddenly want to stay 2 hours in a m+ wiping when they can barely handle a few wipes in a normal, much easier m+?

Imagine spending 2 hours in a m+, only to lose someone to a DC or other irl activities like moms dinner or gf aggro or w\e.
Sounds like fun indeed.

[Seranthor]

It's so that they can be enjoyed in some other way.

I loved Mechagon when it got introduced. It took us like 4 ours to clear. But every time we killed a boss it felt rewarding.

This would create a different (and optional) approach to how you tackle mythic+

It appears you want M0 difficulty with M+20 or so rewards. Is that what you are wanting here?

[Tronski]

I’d love for m+ to have the same difficulty curve as mythic raiding for this comparison alone. Sure, let’s do away with timers just to have something only 1% of the game’s population can do. Great alternative.
“Well, we plowed thru this +10, but this last boss is kicking our ass. Guess we’re gonna have to spend the next 4-5 days in here for about 2-5 hours a go to try and kill it.”
Yep, nothing wrong with that perspective you just tried to use.

On topic, no, I don’t think timers should disappear from m+. It’s literally part of the design of the system. Also, as others have said, if you want to spend hours trying to clear your +2-whatever then you are free to do so. Just don’t expect an upgrade.
People keep asking, “ but what’s wrong with...?” What’s wrong with it is that it is not how the system works, and what those people want is something completely different. They then go on to state they want something based off of skill while ignoring that clearing m+ in the time limit is skill based. It’s the most hypocritical approach to an argument that I’ve seen in a while.

"IT WAS IMPLEMENTED THIS WAY THEREFORE IT MUST NEVER CHANGE" That's basically the only counter-argument in this discussion save for "I DESERVE BETTER REWARDS THAN YOU"

The only hard part about clearing a +10 is getting groups that doesn't fall apart because of unhappy snowflakes or disconnects. When IRL time constraints doesn't allow for steady groups, the mere thought of pugging via the familiar 1 step forward 2 steps back method is sickening.

I ask again: how would it affect you negatively if M+ finished
gave an upgraded key regardless of timer?

- - - Updated - - -

What you're asking for is essentially what Torghast in Shadowlands is. If it's well recieved, it's quite possible that it gets evolved to a permanent gameplay feature with scaling loot, much like challenge mode (which largely only had the transmog set rewards) got changed into mythic+, with item rewards reflecting difficulty and your progression, allowing for alternative ways to get competetive gear besides raiding and to some degree pvp.

Mythic+ is like the first new major gameplay concept during the last 15 years that has actually been successful, and a lot of players have it as their main content now. From a business perspective it would be plain stupidity to remove it or completely change it at this point. But that's not to say there can't be other gameplay concepts added to the game.

Give pet battles the same reward structure and a weekly ilvl capped item, and I assure you pet battles would be the most successful gameplay content that most players would make their main priority.

- - - Updated - - -

So you want a timer on bosses but not the dungeon? What does that even do? 2s thinking btw.

Enrage mechanics is quite common. You might stumble upon it in content that aren't timed as well. You have probably heard of this new thing called raid.

I'd much rather fail to actual mechanics than accumulated time over 5 bosses.

[Tarba]

So you want a timer on bosses but not the dungeon? What does that even do? 2s thinking btw.

That mean you won't be able to cheese with multiple heals and still won't have to rush the whole instance. Like... in raids maybe? Thinking seems not to be your thing.

[Sámsa]

No.

M+ without timers would defeat the whole purpose. It would just be 5 man raids where you can bang your head into a wall for as long as you want.

What I like about m+ is that it has a very limited and predictable timeframe. The longest timer is 42 minutes, Maybe +10-15 minutes if a run goes terribly wrong. But in my experience every group mutally disbands after that. So I can plan with 1 hour tops.

If you take away the timer I would be forced to stay in there until it is clear. Sorry but that is not for me.

What I am in for though is a pause button. Like 1-2 pauses per run.
And that you can reinvite people if someone leaves.
We can make the timer stop if the game detects a disconnect that would be a good addition, too.

But at least for me the timer has to stay.

[Clozer]

That mean you won't be able to cheese with multiple heals and still won't have to rush the whole instance. Like... in raids maybe? Thinking seems not to be your thing.

No one has to rush the whole instance. You wanna do raids then... maybe raid? Just a thought.