If TBC becomes a thing, Blizzard needs to make "change" to prevent faction imbalance

[Naraga]

Right now in Classic, factions are remotely balanced. On most servers horde outnumber alliance, but it is a playable balance. Some servers unfortunately have slipped away from this playable balance and we've all seen the numerous threads complaining about it.

However if nothing is done, the issues with faction balance we currently experience will seem like a complete nonissue compared to what TBC will bring us.

We know from private server data that at the start of each server we see a 70-30 to 80-20 faction balance favouring horde. Then in a manner of days to weeks this imbalance will quickly compound to 95+-5- balance as Alliance players quit or factionswitch because the game is literally unplayable for them.

What are the reasons for this? Outside of subjective reasons like blood elf aesthetics or faction psychology, the main reasons for faction imbalance on TBC servers stems from the fact that horde racials are considered slightly better for PvE and much better for PvP. But one of the largest difference is in Paladins as the Horde Seal of Blood is a huge buff over Alliance paladins. This means that from an objective point of view, both PvP and PvE players have no reason to roll Alliance.

With the min-max mindset we see in Classic, I'm fully expecting this private server trend to continue into Classic TBC. Even if current servers are progressed into TBC as is, I fear many Alliance players will straight up reroll.

Now I don't want to suggest massive game overhauls as I simply do not trust current Blizzard to make such changes. The same reason why I wouldn't want to see Classic + as I have no faith in their ability to execute this. As such, the options we have to prevent this Alliance exodus are limited.

Balancing the PvP racials would be too extensive of a change, and as such we simply need to accept some imbalance will exist. However I believe that for PvE we can make a very minor change that would make a huge difference, and that is making Seal of Blood available to all Paladins regardless of race. In a way it is a very minor change that fits in with the TBC design philosophy as many Vanilla racial class abilities were either removed or made class-wide, making Seal of Blood an outlier. While this would do nothing for PvP players, at least it removes a large incentive for PvE players to reroll to Horde. Combined with progressing current servers giving incentive to people to continue to play their current characters as rerolling would put them behind (as opposed to starting fresh servers) we can hopefully prevent private servers scenarios from happening in Classic. I would also suggest faction locks, preventing players who don't already have a character of level 60 to make new characters on factions that are outnumbering the opposing faction.

I know this will not please purists, however I believe that in order to have a playable experience for both factions that resembles actual TBC as closely as possible, this one minor change needs to be made.

P.S
Please no retail players ITT that spam #nochanges out of spite, thanks.

[garicasha]

I've always wondered why they didn't try to force the servers to be a little more balanced.

But I don't see them implementing your suggestion.

Edit: to the poster below me...they could have made a few servers where you couldn't roll on the more-populated faction or something. I mean nobody would ever be happy all the time, but there's ways they could have encouraged it.

[Mirishka]

I've always wondered why they didn't try to force the servers to be a little more balanced.

Because there is no way to do that. Forcing people to transfer, or telling them 'YOU WILL PLAY <name of underrepresented faction> AND THAT'S THAT' would not end well.

[crewskater]

They hardly made any changes to Classic so I doubt TBC will be any different. Why would they start now? Why stop there?

[Big Thanks]

No more Battleground premades. period

[Naraga]

They hardly made any changes to Classic so I doubt TBC will be any different. Why would they start now? Why stop there?

I literally just explained why.

Classic didn't need any changes for a playable experience. Having every single server be 99-1 faction balance 1 month into TBC surely counts as a reason.

[Mysterymask]

I literally just explained why.

Classic didn't need any changes for a playable experience. Having every single server be 99-1 faction balance 1 month into TBC surely counts as a reason.

Problem is faction generally leans on personal preference and "what are my friends playing" a lot of people will either play their preferred faction or not at all which can domino with that guys friends screaming blizzard sucks and also leaving


So empty servers or unbalanced ones your pick

[Kralljin]

If Classic is anything to go by, Blizzard will not change anything.

Their primary objective has been authenticity from a gameplay perspective and only changed things when the actual change didn't have much of an impact on the experience as far as gameplay is concerned (like hiding the Number of which AV you are going to join).

Giving Alliance Paladins Seal of Blood just for the sake of Faction Balance is thus unlikely, because it is a clear deviation from it.

I mean, let's just assume for second that the Paladin / Shaman situation in Classic would have been far more in the favour of one of the two, would Blizzard have changed it?
I doubt it personally.

It's a difficult call, because one can argue that the Horde Paladins being better was quite frankly a part of it, similiar to how DoT Classes were crippled by the debuff cap, despite Blizzard having the power to remove it.
The other side of it is that you're intentionally screwing with player experience for the sake of authenticity because of a single spell.

However, in regards to re rolling, unless Blizzard chooses to hard reset the TBC launch via starting from level 1 or 58 pre mades, i doubt you will see a lot of people re rolling.
Yeah, the try hard Alliance players will level a Horde character to switch over once TBC hits, but i don't think a lot of people will throw all of their 60 Alliance characters (alongside vanity stuff) away to have a slight advantage in TBC.

But if they're going to start from scratch and don't add Seal of Blood to the Alliance, you will see a massive Imbalance in favour of Horde across the board.

I literally just explained why.

Classic didn't need any changes for a playable experience. Having every single server be 99-1 faction balance 1 month into TBC surely counts as a reason.

To be fair, that effect kicked in on quite a few servers thanks to the release of the honor system without BG's.
My server went from "slightly Horde favored" to "No Alliance here" within two months (thanks Blizzard for keeping free character transfer open in EU).

[Naraga]

Problem is faction generally leans on personal preference and "what are my friends playing" a lot of people will either play their preferred faction or not at all which can domino with that guys friends screaming blizzard sucks and also leaving


So empty servers or unbalanced ones your pick

I'm not sure what your argument is.

If Classic is anything to go by, Blizzard will not change anything.

Their primary objective has been authenticity from a gameplay perspective and only changed things when the actual change didn't have much of an impact on the experience as far as gameplay is concerned (like hiding the Number of which AV you are going to join).

Giving Alliance Paladins Seal of Blood just for the sake of Faction Balance is thus unlikely, because it is a clear deviation from it.

I mean, let's just assume for second that the Paladin / Shaman situation in Classic would have been far more in the favour of one of the two, would Blizzard have changed it?
I doubt it personally.

It's a difficult call, because one can argue that the Horde Paladins being better was quite frankly a part of it, similiar to how DoT Classes were crippled by the debuff cap, despite Blizzard having the power to remove it.
The other side of it is that you're intentionally screwing with player experience for the sake of authenticity because of a single spell.

However, in regards to re rolling, unless Blizzard chooses to hard reset the TBC launch via starting from level 1 or 58 pre mades, i doubt you will a lot of people re rolling.
Yeah, the try hard Alliance players will level a Horde character to switch over once TBC hits, but i don't think a lot of people will throw all of their 60 Alliance characters (alongside vanity stuff) away to have a slight advantage in TBC.

But if they're going to start from scratch and don't add Seal of Blood to the Alliance, you will see a massive Imbalance in favour of Horde across the board.

Thing is, dot classes are weakened on both factions and each class still offers enough incentive and an unique playstyle to actually play them. Shaman and Paladins balance against each other doesn't matter as much, as they provide different playstyles, different pros and cons. You can't say one is straight up better than the other and as such the other shouldn't be played.

Seal of Blood is different. There is no redeeming quality for Alliance paladins, no difference in playstyle or what they bring to the table. They are straight up garbage without Seal of Blood, and not by a small margin either.

It's not like I'm just making stuff up here or talking about a hypothetical scenario. Every private server that didn't take stringent action to incentivize people to play Alliance over horde ended up as a single faction server.

In the grand scheme of things, for the experience you have it should not make a difference. Things like changing the macro system, preventing premades and whatever else Blizzard has done in Classic have had way larger impacts on gameplay than this ever would. And as I described before, it fits the design philosophy of Bizzard at the time too.

[Kaver]

I'm not sure what your argument is.

I don't agree with the guys, but it's pretty obvious what his argument was.

[crewskater]

I literally just explained why.

Classic didn't need any changes for a playable experience. Having every single server be 99-1 faction balance 1 month into TBC surely counts as a reason.

There definitely could have been some changes made to classic. Dwarf priest fear ward comes to mind.

[Naraga]

I don't agree with the guys, but it's pretty obvious what his argument was.

I don't see it, he presents a dichotomy of either empty servers or unbalanced servers and tells me to pick between them. I don't really see how either are the result of what I'm suggesting here.

[Kralljin]

Thing is, dot classes are weakened on both factions and each class still offers enough incentive and an unique playstyle to actually play them.

The question here is whether Blizzard cares about faction imbalance, which they seemingly don't do as much if Classic is anything to go on.

Shaman and Paladins balance against each other doesn't matter as much, as they provide different playstyles, different pros and cons. You can't say one is straight up better than the other and as such the other shouldn't be played.

It was a description of a "what if" scenario, if one would have the clear edge over the other.

it fits the design philosophy of Bizzard at the time too.

These changes are only done if people find ways to abuse the system in such ways that clearly aren't intended and only fix them because they border on griefing / exploit.
Seal of Blood is neither exploit nor a method to grief other players.

If it was in Blizzards power, they would have also removed the debuff cap in 2005 / 2006, but it was a technical limitation.

It's not like I'm just making stuff up here or talking about a hypothetical scenario.

And i didn't say that you are, but going from Blizzards previous decisions, i wouldn't bet on them changing it.
I consider it a difficult decision, i leave it at that.

[Kokolums]

If Classic is anything to go by, Blizzard will not change anything.

Their primary objective has been authenticity from a gameplay perspective and only changed things when the actual change didn't have much of an impact on the experience as far as gameplay is concerned (like hiding the Number of which AV you are going to join).

Blizzard made MASSIVE changes to WoW Classic so that it is nothng like vanilla.

The core of vanilla gameplay is an in-game community. The FIRST thing they did was strike at the HEART of that by adding layers. That prevents people from being forced to socialize to organize quest kills at low levels. So they FIRST thing they did was try to KILL the in-game community. Right off the bat. That promoted an antisocial game play that did not exist in vanilla. Then they made the servers incredibly huge, which ALSO attacks and destroys the in-game community because with small server sizes found in vanilla, in-game communities are much easier to form.

So don't tell me they won't change anything. They absolutely did. And the changes were massive and missed the entire point of classic.

[Drusin]

Blizzard made MASSIVE changes to WoW Classic so that it is nothng like vanilla.

The core of vanilla gameplay is an in-game community. The FIRST thing they did was strike at the HEART of that by adding layers. That prevents people from being forecd to socialize to organize quest kills at low levels. So they FIRST thing they did was try to KILL the in-game community. Right off the bat. That promoted an antisocial game play that did not exist in vanilla. Then they made the servers incredibly huge, which ALSO attacks and destroys in the in-game community because with small server sizes like in vanilla, in-game communities are much easier to form.

So don't tell me they won't change anything. They absolutely did. And the changes were massive and missed the entire point of classic.

Didn't they turn off layers?

[Naraga]

The question here is whether Blizzard cares about faction imbalance, which they seemingly don't do as much if Classic is anything to go on.


It was a description of a "what if" scenario, if one would have the clear edge over the other.

These changes are only done if people find ways to abuse the system in such ways that clearly aren't intended and only fix them because they border on griefing / exploit.
Seal of Blood is neither exploit nor a method to grief other players.

If it was in Blizzards power, they would have also removed the debuff cap in 2005 / 2006, but it was a technical limitation.

And i didn't say that you are, but going from Blizzards previous decisions, i wouldn't bet on them changing it.
I consider it a difficult decision, i leave it at that.

The thing with the what if scenario is that its just that, what if. It's useless to think about as it is entirely hypothetical. Taking action against that would mean trying to balance classes against each other and lead to balance changes moving the game far away from its initial state.

And it is true that Blizzard has shown little comprehension of faction balance, often themselves being the reason as to why servers are now imbalanced as you mentioned.

But I repeat, what I am talking about in this thread is not a "what if" scenario. It is a scenario that is backed up by publicly available data and a process we see repeated time and time again on each new private server launch. I repeat again, the current faction imbalance as a whole is nothing compared to what we will experience in an unchanged TBC. Every single server will be single faction, and that is a fact.

[Kralljin]

The core of vanilla gameplay is an in-game community. The FIRST thing they did was strike at the HEART of that by adding layers. That prevents people from being forecd to socialize to organize quest kills at low levels. So they FIRST thing they did was try to KILL the in-game community. Right off the bat. That promoted an antisocial game play that idd not exist in vanilla.

Layering was the only thing that kept outdoor content playable during the first weeks.
Like, i have no idea where you played, but during the first weeks and months, not being alone while questing was most certainly not an issue for me.

Without Layering, the only way to reasonably level your character would have been dungeon spamming, because the outdoor world would have been unplayable.
Which i'd consider an even less social experience.

The major damage that Layering caused was a economical one, because people abused it to gather loads of Black Lotus.

The thing with the what if scenario is that its just that, what if. It's useless to think about as it is entirely hypothetical.

The point is to highlight how Blizzard would have reacted if they had a faced a similiar issue before.

But I repeat, what I am talking about in this thread is not a "what if" scenario. It is a scenario that is backed up by publicly available data and a process we see repeated time and time again on each new private server launch. I repeat again, the current faction imbalance as a whole is nothing compared to what we will experience in an unchanged TBC. Every single server will be single faction, and that is a fact.

Yes, some Private servers also only introduced the Honor system alongside BG's in order to avoid one faction becoming completely dominant and Blizzard still went ahead and introduced the honor system without BG's - Then delaying the introduction of BG's by almost a month which caused unfixable damage.

The debate here is a Player experience vs. Authenticity one; going from past experience, Blizzard has generally favored the approach of Authenticity over player experience.

[Kokolums]

Didn't they turn off layers?

The CRUCIAL time to NOT have layers is when servers first opened, because that's where you can force social interaction and cooperation with lots of people in the starting zones. Turning them off later does jack shit.

[Ielenia]

<snip>

Faction balance is almost purely player-driven. People will flock to Horde or Alliance for a huge variety of reasons: aesthetics, races, racials, friends, lore, etc.

it is impossible for Blizzard to create 'balanced factions' without enforcing a "you cannot make a character of that faction in this server" barrier when the balance pendulum is swinging too far in one direction, which means actively prohibiting people from transferring or creating new characters of that specific faction in that server.

Which I imagine won't go well with the players. At all.

[Drusin]

The CRUCIAL time to NOT have layers is when servers first opened, because that's where you can force social interaction and cooperation with lots of people in the starting zones. Turning them off later does jack shit.

I dunno, I still talked to people when I had to.