I feel like Questing Experience Overhaul is unavoidable

[Aurabolt]

...More so with the upcoming Level Squish, which makes the need more obvious. I'm talking about the Timeline continuity.

Like it or not, Blizzard's gonna need to get into the habit of updating older content to reflect the passage of time every expansion or every other expansion and more so for new players. Post-Cata, Blizzard should've REALLY done it after MoP, Legion and now BFA. Zones and Expansion Areas really need to be updated to reflect more recent events:

• Silithus: Sargeras' Sword is in the middle of it. 'Nuff said.
• Darkshore War Front: The war for Lordaniel devastated the region. The Night Elves seek to restore the land while the Horde works to withdraw the remnants of their forces through Ashenvale to The Barrens.
• Ashenvale: The Night Elves work with the Worgen, Draenei and other allies rebuild their devasted outposts. Meanwhile, the Horde continues to move their forces from Darshore through Ashenvale to The Barrens before their supply lines are compromised.
• The Broken Isles: All zones updated to reflect the events of Legion and BFA.
• Kul Tiras and Zandalar: All Zones updated to reflect the events of BFA.
• Pandaria: All zones updated to reflect the events of MoP, Legion and BFA.
• Draenor: All zones updated to reflect the events of WoD and BFA.
• Northrend: All zones updated to reflect the events of WotLK, Legion and Shadowlands.
• Outland: All zones updated to reflect the events of TBC, WotLK, Cataclysm and BFA.
• Cataclysm Areas: Updated to relfect the events Cataclysm and Legion.

...Those are just a few examples obviously.


Allied Races' starting experiences would also be merged with existing races' which would also be updated:

• Elynn Forest: Human, Kul Tiran Human, Tushui Pandaren and Void Elf. The recent wars against the Horde, N'Zoth and the Legion have devastated Stormwind and the surrounding region. Anduin decides to put some effort into rebuilding and securing long forgotten regions--Westfall, Duskwood and Redridge--some of which have been overrun while attention was focused elsewhere.
• Durotar/Echo Isles: Orc, Mag'har Orc, Goblin, Darkspear Troll and Zandalari Troll: Years of fighting wars of distance battlefields have left Durotar in a state of disrepair. Thrall and Eitrigg call on their allies to assist them in giving key outposts in the region a much needed upgrade.
• Dun Morogh: Dwarf, Dark Iron Dwarf, Gnome, Mechagnome: The arrival of the Mechagnomes to the region allowed the Gnomes to further the efforts to reclaim more of their fallen city of Gnomeregan. The stage is set for the city to be reclaimed once an for all. Meanwhile, Muradin Bronzebeard agrees to Moira's request to build an access roads to the Burning Steppes, proving overland routes for the Dark Iron Dwarves to Ironforge.
• Mulgore: Tauren, Highmountain Tauren, Huojun Pandaren and Vulpera: Baine invites the Highmountain brethren as well as the Vulpera to Mulgore for a cultural exchange as well as to strengthen the bonds of their people. Ji Firepaw relocates to Mulgore as well to change things up.
• Darkshore/Ashenvale: Night Elf. The Night Elve were devastated by the destruction of Teldrassil but not they are far from defeated. They work to rebuild their shattered settlemants on Northern Kalimdor.
• Tirisfal Glades: Undead. Abandoned by Sylvanas Windrunner and The Undercity lost, The Forsaken struggle to find a new identity and a new purpose for themselves within the Horde. The pain is deep but they are resolved to endure.
• Azuremyst/Bloodmyst Isle: Draenei and Lightforged Draenei: The Draenei and their Lightforged brethren come together to further develop Azuremyst Isle and Bloodmyst Isle so that the can better assist the Alliance forces across Azeroth.
• Eversong Woods/Ghostlands: Blood Elf and Nightborne. The Blood Elves accept aid from Suramar in restoring much of the damage still left over from The Third War and The Scourge Invasion. The presence of Alleria Windrunner in The Ghostlands could mean new conflict or a chance at reconciliation.
• Gilneas: Worgen. Genn Greymane leads his people back to their homeland for the sole purpose of reclaiming it. Even though The Undercity is destroyed, there is much work to be done to reclaim Gilneas.

...My head canon's in overdrive obviously.

Anywho, the timeline and continuity is easy to fix with some effort. You could even just have an NPC in every starting zone saying "Much has changed since The Cataclysm. Before you can experience the current story, you must become stronger than you currently are. As you travel the world you will learn of past events that shaped history up to now." Simple, requires little effort.

Same with expansion content:

• Outland: The opening of the Dark Portal allowed the Orcs to return to their shattered homeworld and for the Alliance to reconnect with long lost allies.
• Northrend: The Alliance and the Horde worked with the Argent Crusade and the Knights of the Ebon Blade to defend the world from The Lich King and the Scourge.
• Cataclysm Areas: The emergence of Deathwing changed the world. New and Old allies emerged to join the fight for our world.
• Pandaria: The lost continent of Pandaria was revealed by The Cataclysm for the first time in centuries. It was far from prepared for the war brought to its shores by the Alliance and the Horde.
• Draenor: Past meets present as Heroes journey to an ancient version of Draenor before it became Outland.
• Broken Isles: The Fourth War devastated Azeroth. See how the world's Champions snatched victory from the jaws of defeat.
• Kul Tiras and Zandalar: New allies join the Alliance and the Horde fight for dominance. Little did both sides realize, there was another force working behind the scenes against both of them.

...Context would help quite a bit in short. You can simply explain to folks They're going through older content first so that the can learn of events that brought the story to where it is now. Not hard to add and it won't be breaking the fourth wall either.

[Galaar]

Have you completely missed the entire host of articles on Shadowlands and the leveling changes?

[Lucetia]

Looks like you missed the Blizzcon Panel.

New players will do a starting area and then do BFA content and then Shadowlands. People who have leveled to 50 already can do new area / skip it and then pick any expansion and Chromie sends them back in time.

Therefore none of the story has to be adjusted since we are being sent back in time, new players are forced to do BFA to Shadowlands.

[Shaetha]

-snip-

If you want to be forced to do filler nonsense, play FFXIV. They have all the filler gating off the new areas.

[DeltrusDisc]

/snip this beautiful write-up

I totally get it, I totally agree with you.
Unfortunately it isn't the leveling zones that sell this game anymore, it's the end-game.
Think about it from an investor perspective: why should Blizzard invest in areas players spend so little time in? I'm all for them making each and every zone having a level-capped version for end-game content purposes, but that would be a monumental ask. After every expansion is a bit much, but I think after every few, it can't be ignored. MoP, WoD, didn't really affect the old-world that much, and Legion only did a little bit for a short time. However, now that we've had Void invasions, I think it is far more fair to ask for an update to the old zones. So, maybe a major overhaul of the old content every 6-8 years is a more fair thing to ask.

It would be nice to see them do something for Outlands, holy crap. I love Outlands, but the questing is seriously dated, and frankly - I am tired of doing a lot of that content. They could honestly leave most of the questing as is, just make it... make more sense. Streamline it a little bit. Don't change the zones too much, they're the best damned zones in the game, just... do some tweaks.

Northrend would be neat to see an update for, see what having the Scourge pull back would look like, etc.
Cata zones... meh. Uldum will need some TLC after the void invasions for sure.
MoP, Vale, we dealt with the mantid, so that zone could have an update.
See where I'm going? Some zones need it more than others.

[Gasparde]

To the people talking about the SL leveling changes:

These changes will do fuck all in regards to this issue.

You'll get to level 10 without any relevant story.
You'll then get to level through BFA where you'll learn about the fox people, the snek people and Mythrax being set free, about a bunch of random Loas, Bwonsamdi and Uldir being opened, and about Rastakhan getting fucked. You'll also get to plant like 2 footholds for your war campaign... and that's about fucking it. Even better if you're Alliance, because all you get to know then is that there's pirates doing pirate things, witches doing witchy things and tentacle guys doing tentacle things - all hyper relevant to the SL plot.
You'll still not know who or what and Illidan or an Outlands is. What's a fucking Lich King and who's Arthas. Never seen a Deathwing or anything like it. Why the fuck are there Pandas now. You mean to tell me we went through time to another universe at one point. Seriously, what's a fucking Illidan and what sword are you even talking about, what even is a Silithus. And lastly, I've come across Sylvanas a grand total of 2 times... why exactly is she Hitler now?
And then you're gonna get into SL and you'll see familiar faces like Uther... and Kaelthas... and Vashj... for the first time ever!

The story progression in this game is a mess and Shadowlands is not gonna fix anything as it currently stands.

They need to come up with a questline or a cinematic that walks freshly malevel dinged characters through all of the WoW story to get everyone up2speed. Tell 'em what we've done, tell 'em where we went, who's dead, who's still out, tell 'em why exactly everyone's a CHAMPION OF AZEROTH and SAVIOR OF THE WORLD and HIGHLORD OF THE HIGHEST ORDER now. For all the expansions. And every time there's a new expansion you add the story of the last expansion to that.

[Stickiler]

To the people talking about the SL leveling changes:

These changes will do fuck all in regards to this issue.

You'll get to level 10 without any relevant story.
You'll then get to level through BFA where you'll learn about the fox people, the snek people and Mythrax being set free, about a bunch of random Loas, Bwonsamdi and Uldir being opened, and about Rastakhan getting fucked. You'll also get to plant like 2 footholds for your war campaign... and that's about fucking it. Even better if you're Alliance, because all you get to know then is that there's pirates doing pirate things, witches doing witchy things and tentacle guys doing tentacle things - all hyper relevant to the SL plot.
You'll still not know who or what and Illidan or an Outlands is. What's a fucking Lich King and who's Arthas. Never seen a Deathwing or anything like it. Why the fuck are there Pandas now. You mean to tell me we went through time to another universe at one point. Seriously, what's a fucking Illidan and what sword are you even talking about, what even is a Silithus. And lastly, I've come across Sylvanas a grand total of 2 times... why exactly is she Hitler now?
And then you're gonna get into SL and you'll see familiar faces like Uther... and Kaelthas... and Vashj... for the first time ever!

The whole point of the new leveling changes is to get a new player to the end game as soon as they can, while providing enough contextual information that they're not completely lost when entering the new expansion.

You're making a big fuss about them not knowing about certain locations or people, but why does it matter? It's not "why are there pandas now", because the pandas have always been there for a new player, not knowing anything previous. I've played WoW for >50% of it's lifespan(I started at the end of WotLK) and I've never interacted with Kaelthas or Vashj, and I've only really seen Uther from the Culling of Stratholme dungeon I did while levelling.

If a new player sees Uther and is like "this guy is pretty cool", then they've got the full ability to level a new character/go back and quest through Wrath or wherever and learn all about him, they're just not forced to do that when they first start.

They need to come up with a questline or a cinematic that walks freshly malevel dinged characters through all of the WoW story to get everyone up2speed. Tell 'em what we've done, tell 'em where we went, who's dead, who's still out, tell 'em why exactly everyone's a CHAMPION OF AZEROTH and SAVIOR OF THE WORLD and HIGHLORD OF THE HIGHEST ORDER now. For all the expansions. And every time there's a new expansion you add the story of the last expansion to that.

Then you end up forcing every new player through a 5-10min video about mostly irrelevant content, which is annoying and frustrating for a new player who just wants to get in with their friends.

[Gasparde]

The whole point of the new leveling changes is to get a new player to the end game as soon as they can, while providing enough contextual information that they're not completely lost when entering the new expansion.

Which is not gonna be the case. going through the BFA leveling experience is gonna tell you absolutely nothing that's relevant to SL.

You're making a big fuss about them not knowing about certain locations or people, but why does it matter? It's not "why are there pandas now", because the pandas have always been there for a new player, not knowing anything previous. I've played WoW for >50% of it's lifespan(I started at the end of WotLK) and I've never interacted with Kaelthas or Vashj, and I've only really seen Uther from the Culling of Stratholme dungeon I did while levelling.

You're not the relevant audience then.
Have you ever tried getting into the MCU with movie#18 without having seen any of the movies before? Sure, you'll probably get the hang of the movie but you'll get 0 character investment or anything from it. You're missing a big part of the RPG aspect if you're just blasting through the game without giving a shit about what you're actually doing - it's like playing the Witcher and skipping the Bloody Baron questline because I just want to mix some potionsssssss. Sure, there's probably players like yourself, players who don't care all that much about anything, but many people are turned off when they are thrown into a world without knowing what's going on.

If a new player sees Uther and is like "this guy is pretty cool", then they've got the full ability to level a new character/go back and quest through Wrath or wherever and learn all about him, they're just not forced to do that when they first start.

Because from merely seeing Uther that player will then make the connection to go back to WotLK and quest through 40 hours of content? That sounds more reasonable than to give him a quest that just tells him that Uther died during the events of bla blub.

Then you end up forcing every new player through a 5-10min video about mostly irrelevant content, which is annoying and frustrating for a new player who just wants to get in with their friends.

Never said they'd have to make a cinematic movie out of it. A quest chain to tell you the general gist of the world, that tells you where to go and where to look for if you want to know more, just something that gives you any hint of directions instead of just tossing you out into the world on your own, more than enough. No one said they'd have to force people to go through this before they can interact with other players. Also, ust because you wanna get to endgame and play with your friends doesn't mean everyone's like that. There's countless amounts of people playing alone, getting to maxlevel, who are then being overwhelmed by there being 700 different things to do, to go to, to experience and god knows what while there's hundreds of hours of stuff that has happened that they have no idea of.

Fucking Star Wars put the crawler at the beginning of their movies so everyone's up 2 speed. It's not that much to expect WoW to do the same. Again, just because you don't care, just because you can't be asked, just because you don't think you'd need it, just because you don't think you'd want it... doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of people who just feel lost when they hit 50 after questing through Westfall and now there's suddenly a whole universe with multiple planes and timelines to choose from.

[Mirishka]

...More so with the upcoming Level Squish, which makes the need more obvious. I'm talking about the Timeline continuity.

Like it or not, Blizzard's gonna need to get into the habit of updating older content to reflect the passage of time every expansion or every other expansion and more so for new players. Post-Cata, Blizzard should've REALLY done it after MoP, Legion and now BFA. Zones and Expansion Areas really need to be updated to reflect more recent events:

snip because not happening

Overhauling the old world in Cataclysm is something Blizz has very openly admitted to regretting - I wouldn't hold my breath expecting that to happen again unless you enjoy turning blue and passing out.

And besides they've already confirmed the new leveling 'overhaul' - brand-new questing zone for 1-10, BFA for 10-50, SL 50-60. Allied races start at 10 and can move right into BFA.

You have the option to opt into outdated race-specific intro zones/expansions, but by doing so you're consciously saying 'I want to play through this old stuff' and its treated like Timewalking.

[iosdeveloper]

BfA shouldn't be presented as a default choice for leveling, imo

it's a latest expansion - yes
it looks good - yes
it has a good story to get new players hooked and wanting more - lol no

but i guess activision is still obligated to educate kids on strong females

[Makabreska]

BfA shouldn't be presented as a default choice for leveling, imo

it's a latest expansion - yes
it looks good - yes
it has a good story to get new players hooked and wanting more - lol no

but i guess activision is still obligated to educate kids on strong females

Shoot and miss. New players are defaulted to BfA, because it's events tie to SL story. That's the main reason. Would they rather go to MoP and wonder wtf is going on and who is Garrosh?

[Redroniksre]

I mean updating every zone to be expansion relevant itself is a huge undertaking. For example overhauling northrend alone is basically an entire expansion worth of content. This is a big example of asking too much

[Aurabolt]

Have you completely missed the entire host of articles on Shadowlands and the leveling changes?

The very first thing I said in my post was about the leveling squish so...no.

Looks like you missed the Blizzcon Panel.

New players will do a starting area and then do BFA content and then Shadowlands. People who have leveled to 50 already can do new area / skip it and then pick any expansion and Chromie sends them back in time.

Therefore none of the story has to be adjusted since we are being sent back in time, new players are forced to do BFA to Shadowlands.

I saw the chart about players leveling 1 to 25, then doing expansion content until level 50 before Shadowlands to 60. We still don't know--yet--how exactly that will look and more so since we're still talking 15 years' worth of content.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean updating every zone to be expansion relevant itself is a huge undertaking. For example overhauling northrend alone is basically an entire expansion worth of content. This is a big example of asking too much

I know. And I know this is unlikely to happen anytime soon. The willingness isn't there first and "Priority is new content" second.

- - - Updated - - -

BfA shouldn't be presented as a default choice for leveling, imo

...Agreed.

I'd like to see a modified version of the current model of being able to choose where you want to level to enter the current expansion. I don't mind Draenor, Pandaria, Cataclysm areas or BFA areas personally for example. I know some don't mind Outland, Northrend or Broken Isles either. If level 25 is when all Expansion content will be unlocked, just let players be locked into that content until they can do the current expansion. They'll still have the option of switching expansion content every 5 or 10 levels though.

[Adam Jensen]

but i guess activision is still obligated to educate kids on strong females

...

seriously?

Let me guess, you hated Captain Marvel.

[VinceVega]

While yes thw world should reflect the changes, but that takes way to much ressources for little to nothing in retourn.

How often to you go to Northrend? Or Outland? There is no reason other than farming transmogs. I don't even remember when i have been in Desolace the last time.

It would make the world more current. But that is just a never ending treadmill.

I don't think they should do this.

They can do this with WOW2 in 20 years. Opening up just a few zones and updating them along the way. Right now that would be waaaaaaaaaaaaay to much to do. I rather the focus on the current expansion.
Also what do you want in those overhauled zones? They would basically be just empty zones as you need the old quests for leveling.

Just few it as if those other zones that are not current ARE updated and you just visit the past. They are updated if needed. Like Uldum and the vale in 8.3

[Uko]

As fun as an update to leveling content might be it only represents a dayish of playtime versus the 100x that spent at endgame. I know if I saw a leveling revamp on that scale announced I would go ok guess I can skip this expansion there won't be much at endgame like cata and I prolly wouldn't be alone as I don't know anyone who plays wow for its leveling content.

[Powerogue]

That level of questing overhaul would require three Cataclysm expansions worth of work.

Time will tell how effective the Chromie time travel element will be at making the questing experience coherent. Presumably the main reasoning for it is so you mostly stay in one "time period", rather than doing one quest where Garrosh is warchief, then another where Vol'jin is, then another where Sylvanas is, within minutes of each other causing phasing conflicts.

[CerealLord]

/snip

I'm pretty sure that once you finish the New Player Experience, it will automatically have you start BFA, in which you will level from 10-50 and then start Shadowlands. Otherwise, you can talk to Chromie to start any other expac, through which you level to 50. Ideally, by the end of the expac content, you should be ready for Shadowlands.

That's how they had described it and could have sworn I read a confirmation regarding this somewhere.

[Lolites]

I saw the chart about players leveling 1 to 25, then doing expansion content until level 50 before Shadowlands to 60. We still don't know--yet--how exactly that will look and more so since we're still talking 15 years' worth of content.

well, as a matter of fact, we (who actualy bothered to read some articles or listen to some interviews instead of waiting for the information to miraculously appear in our head) know, as it was said and confirmed sokme dozen or so times by Ion, Steve Danuser and other blizz guys:
1. players with new account will do the new intro experience till lvl 10, then BFA till lvl 50 and then shadowlands
2. veteran players (or new players with another toon after leveling first) can choose to either do regular intro zone (elwyn forest for human for example) OR the new intro till lvl 10, and then they can talk to chromie and go whatever expansion they want till lvl 50 (you can ofc at any point decide to go talk to chromie and go for different expansion) and then shadowlands

as far as i know, only thing that wasnt confirmed was if we can level via "vanila" zones from 10-50, but id say it would be weird if we couldnt

[Soon-TM]

To the people talking about the SL leveling changes:

These changes will do fuck all in regards to this issue.

You'll get to level 10 without any relevant story.
You'll then get to level through BFA where you'll learn about the fox people, the snek people and Mythrax being set free, about a bunch of random Loas, Bwonsamdi and Uldir being opened, and about Rastakhan getting fucked. You'll also get to plant like 2 footholds for your war campaign... and that's about fucking it. Even better if you're Alliance, because all you get to know then is that there's pirates doing pirate things, witches doing witchy things and tentacle guys doing tentacle things - all hyper relevant to the SL plot.
You'll still not know who or what and Illidan or an Outlands is. What's a fucking Lich King and who's Arthas. Never seen a Deathwing or anything like it. Why the fuck are there Pandas now. You mean to tell me we went through time to another universe at one point. Seriously, what's a fucking Illidan and what sword are you even talking about, what even is a Silithus. And lastly, I've come across Sylvanas a grand total of 2 times... why exactly is she Hitler now?
And then you're gonna get into SL and you'll see familiar faces like Uther... and Kaelthas... and Vashj... for the first time ever!

The story progression in this game is a mess and Shadowlands is not gonna fix anything as it currently stands.

They need to come up with a questline or a cinematic that walks freshly malevel dinged characters through all of the WoW story to get everyone up2speed. Tell 'em what we've done, tell 'em where we went, who's dead, who's still out, tell 'em why exactly everyone's a CHAMPION OF AZEROTH and SAVIOR OF THE WORLD and HIGHLORD OF THE HIGHEST ORDER now. For all the expansions. And every time there's a new expansion you add the story of the last expansion to that.

While I overall agree, Blizzard could always throw some contextual VO to the likes of Uther or Kael, so that new players get a rough summary about them. For example, after delivering a couple of quests to Kael, he says something like "Yes, I was once the successor to the Silvermoon crown. But in my hubris, I tapered with powers that far exceeded mine, and I ended siding with the very force that was ultimately responsible for laying my kingdom to waste. Fel magic was my doom, as my former subjects in Quel'thalas or Outland may attest". Even some well written quest text would do the trick. Add a NPC somewhere to relive the burning of Teldrassil and SoO 2.0, and people will know why Sylvanas is the big bad now.