Datamined race intros shows Blizz set on whitewashing Horde.

[Makabreska]

That argument works once, at a stretch twice, but this is the third time the Orcs have used this defence, at some point you have to assume that they actually enjoy going around killing people, as indeed Surfang considered in "A Good War".
It's not that orcs cannot change ever, but for everyone to belieive they are actually changed now we would need something more substantial than whatever happened at the end of BfA.

Oh, the orcs liking war and killing has been known for a long time. Both MoP and WoD had zero demonic influence to convince orcs to go HAM on others.

[Combatbutler]

The Alliance literally told the quel'dorei to fuck off and refused to help them when they asked. But just because the Alliance didn't start it doesn't make them innocent as they have absolutely been perpetuating it.

The Alliance is literally WHY the sin'dorei even exist. They begged the Alliance for aid and the King literally refused them ANY aid. As a result, Silvermoon was stranded with no allies which led to the Sunwell getting fucked and created the blood elves. If I was them, I'd ally with the enemies of the kingdom that literally almost eradicated my people too. Especially since the person that almost doomed my race was a HUMAN.

This is wrong Quel'thalas, never got the chance to ask for help, they were sending aid to Lordaeron and then Arthas steamrolled through. What is true is that what remained of the Alliance didn't send them any help after their kingdom was decimated.

[Accendor]

and you completely dismiss saurfang's story arc, and how that DIRECTLY ties into this.

It does. For like, 120 members of the horde or something. Those that revelled with him. But that was a tiny, tiny , insignificant minority.

[Rozz]

I'm not happy with the Forsaken statement. I can't even say Lilian or Calia feel that way. It's always been about protecting themselves, even Calia wants to focus on healing their emotional baggage. If she just swoops in and turns them into a vanguard to safeguard their Alliancne families, she's playing 4D chess on a higher plane than Sylvanas.

[bowlink]

Yes, because that is usually why atrocities happen. Soldiers defecting or rebelling against orders is not the norm. Usually because the repercussions are severe.

Strange whenever horde members go against orders they are normally trying to do the right thing with the least amount of death.

Koltira Deathweaver
Zellig
Bain
Saurfang

Its almost like the default state of the horde is violence the undead in peticular

[Combatbutler]

I'm not happy with the Forsaken statement. I can't even say Lilian or Calia feel that way. It's always been about protecting themselves, even Calia wants to focus on healing their emotional baggage. If she just swoops in and turns them into a vanguard to safeguard their Alliancne families, she's playing 4D chess on a higher plane than Sylvanas.

This whole altruistic angle is way over the top.

Races ,no matter which one, should protect the world mainly to protect themselves and their people.

[SLNC]

That argument works once, at a stretch twice, but this is the third time the Orcs have used this defence, at some point you have to assume that they actually enjoy going around killing people, as indeed Surfang considered in "A Good War".
It's not that orcs cannot change ever, but for everyone to belieive they are actually changed now we would need something more substantial than whatever happened at the end of BfA.

I dunno, I'd call switching to a leadership council during peacetime a pretty damn substantial change, because it lessens the risk of a singular person kickstarting a war again.

[Aucald]

Remember that what we're currently working with is an Alpha. I'm not a fan of these particular blurbs myself, as I think they exclude a lot of narrative potential and player agency in an RP sense - above and beyond sweeping the Fourth War under the proverbial rug. If you don't like these intro blurbs then this is the perfect time to submit feedback on them in the hopes that they're discarded or updated to better reflect the playable races.

[SLNC]

This whole altruistic angle is way over the top.

Races ,no matter which one, should protect the world mainly to protect themselves and their people.

Well now we're delving into personal philosophy regarding societies and their goals.

[Combatbutler]

Remember that what we're currently working with is an Alpha. I'm not a fan of these particular blurbs myself, as I think they exclude a lot of narrative potential and player agency in an RP sense - above and beyond sweeping the Fourth War under the proverbial rug. If you don't like these intro blurbs then this is the perfect time to submit feedback on them in the hopes that they're discarded or updated to better reflect the playable races.

There has to be such negative feedback, precisely because at this stage it can still be changed.

[Super Dickmann]

Well now we're delving into personal philosophy regarding societies and their goals.

Every society that prioritizes benefitting others over its own maintenance and improvement will inevitably fail when it can't do both.

[Combatbutler]

Well now we're delving into personal philosophy regarding societies and their goals.

I don't know a single altruistic race within the entire wow universe, just because the intro decides to call them that, just doesn't magically make them so.

[Yarathir]

Yes, because that is usually why atrocities happen. Soldiers defecting or rebelling against orders is not the norm. Usually because the repercussions are severe.

Unless they get told that they are nothing by their leader, of course.

Then they suddenly scrape together the courage to oppose her.

[Accendor]

There has to be such negative feedback, precisely because at this stage it can still be changed.

Once it's on Alpha, it goes live

[Super Dickmann]

Unless they get told that they are nothing by their leader, of course.

Then they suddenly scrape together the courage to oppose her.

Do they? I mean, we don't see anyone honorably try to shoot her while she's flying away, they just mope about it and passive-aggressively harass goblins who're trying to withdraw money from the bank after the fact. Then they cease to be because none of them having anything to do in the N'zoth story.

[SLNC]

Unless they get told that they are nothing by their leader, of course.

Then they suddenly scrape together the courage to oppose her.

Yeah, realizing, that their loyality was misguided, can be a catalyst for rebellion.

[Manariel]

How one can spew such bullshit after all this time I will never understand, try to read chronicle or do a wc3 mission and this pathetic little statement falls utterly apart.

I played Warcraft III. Sorceresses and Priests came to help in spite of Anesterian's orders. Quel'thalas left the Alliance after the Second War, that's the lore. I don't own the Chronicles, but I'm willing to bet that bit wasn't retconned, so it was actually the future Blood Elves who refused to help, not the other way around.

And pretending the reverse a thousand times won't make it true.

[Aucald]

There has to be such negative feedback, precisely because at this stage it can still be changed.

Feedback should also be constructive, and not invective - it should also not be pointed at people here but rather the appropriate parties who can actually make the needed changes.

[Combatbutler]

Feedback should also be constructive, and not invective - it should also not be pointed at people here but rather the appropriate parties who can actually make the needed changes.

Oh there has been plenty of constructive feedback, alongside the harsh bite.

[Accendor]

Yeah, true, but we're not talking about punishment of singular actors, but the condemnation of a whole faction.

Doesn't matter whether or not something holds up in court, when it is the prime reason of why atrocities happen. I'm not talking about whether or not the justification is right.

You are ignoring the fact that the horde did not just follow orders, they enjoyed it. Just play the horde questlines and you'll see. It's one thing to do something with because you feel like you have no choice or simple because you think it's your duty of if you thrive in it.