Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[baskev]

Careful..somebody will come in and tell you that Blizzard never changes things - though the SoulsoBreezy videos clearly show that they WILL and HAVE changed things. Tiny detail? PPl complained about sliders in the character UI...well, they are gone now. You could mount up in some areas of Torghat. Gone.

But I suppose ppl expect Blizzard to act on feedback like "Remove all covenants" "Shadowlands is dumb, make a Dragon Isle xpac nau"^^

:P. Yup. Tiny detail they forget sometimes ( they people hating on this forum/youtube etc).
yeah, i think you are right there. Some people hate x, but when they remove x, they will hate that they removed x.

[Kyphael]

I feel like Venthyr for my warlock better, which is a sign of why this system is fun.

Yep! Warlocks could go both ways, Venthyr or Necrolords. If it's an Affliction Warlock, then Necrolords. Demonology could go Venthyr. Also depends on the race! Undead Warlock, hands down Necrolord. Blood Elf Warlock? Venthyr! It's fun to play around with all the choices and make each character distinct.

[Big Thanks]

You seem to be under hte impression that all timegates are bad.
In this case i am arguing that an impactful choice requires consequences, the timegating is an integral part of it, as removing that would make it cease to be an impactful choice.
You seem determined to blanet state that "timegating=bad", instead of the more reasonable "bad timegates for no reason=bad"

I didnt say all timegates are bad.

I think bad timegates for no reason = bad (like you said)

You could easily remove the "hard lock timegates" of leveling up your covenant (wich there will be, lets not be naive here. I actually think is confirmed in one interview)

And let the "timegate" be the amount of time it takes to farm the currency to level up your covenant

[klogaroth]

And you are welcome to make your decision based on whatever criteria you want. Choice is fun.

But I'm not though. If my criteria is "I'd like to play the most effective spec for warlock for the end boss of each tier", there is absolutely no guarantee that criteria can be met without a huge (possibly insurmountable) time tax that other people just don't face. That's also assuming that everyone guesses correctly on meta ahead of time, and that it doesn't shift due to patches or hotfixes.

The only criteria people can validly pick with the way the system works is "I think it looks cool". If that's it, does it need differing abilities between the options?

That's also assuming I only care about a single boss every several months. And ignores other bosses, and other aspects of the game.

[Big Thanks]

We don’t know the details of how the time gates for covenants work, so this is yet another example of you taking no information and making a bunch of assumptions and then crying that the sky is falling

From the zoltan interview summary:

Endgame:
Epic Covenant campaign that spans multiple weeks, unlocks Soulbind, tells story of Covenant.

Timegates are inevitable, as you say...because is Blizzard

[Liaku]

well then its clearly time to remodel mythic +

or time to punish such behaviour in game

maybe its time for devs to take care of how community behaves if community cant behave like cyvilised beings themselves.

other games like FF14 deal with it nicely and very fast - they basickly eradicated such behaviour from their game.

time for blizzard to do the same

FF14 didn't eradicate elitism, they swept it under the rug. You can still kick someone or refuse to invite them for all the same reasons, you just can't tell them why you kicked them, because if you do then it's likely reportable.

[Sondrelk]

That's all well and good, but will Venthyr be numerically best for raids, M+, arena, and BGs for whichever spec of warlock is called upon for a given situation for all of Shadowlands?

"Feel like" before there are any final numbers is a sign that you're roleplaying, not munchkining. WoW is pure munchkin to many, many people. It has RP realms, but it was never at its core a role playing system, it's had RP stuck on top of it.

The reasons a huge number of people play WoW are very different to the reasons they might play something like D&D, and would approach making a character very differently between the two.

You can still be a proper munchkin in WoW, the difference is just that now Blizzard has decided that story comes first, and the munchkins have to suck it up. They can still change covenants, and if they know exactly what they want to be good at they can make that choice comfortably at the very beginning, but they will no longer be able to be a munchkin in all areas of the game at once.

You bring up D&D, but a munchkin in that would still have to somehow concoct a backstory in which their half-orc, quarter-elf, quarter-dwarf somehow learned how to throw daggers just well enough to hit a bullseye while at the same time having time to learn how to summon a demonic vendor that sells knives real cheap.
And even then, said character would still not be able to respec to a rogue jsut because the next area they discover has obscuring mists.

[huth]

Ofcourse timegates are acceptable sometimes.

How would you feel if i timegated your ability to eat potato chips, everytime you bought a bag of chips?

Here, you can eat 1 chip today. SEE YOU NEXT WEEK for the next potato chip.

As opposed to the community forcing you to collect every single bag of chips you can even if you're sick to death of the damn things?

Because that's the alternative. That has been complained about rather profusely, i might add.

[Sondrelk]

I didnt say all timegates are bad.

I think bad timegates for no reason = bad (like you said)

You could easily remove the "hard lock timegates" of leveling up your covenant (wich there will be, lets not be naive here. I actually think is confirmed in one interview)

And let the "timegate" be the amount of time it takes to farm the currency to level up your covenant

And yet you say this despite having no clue how the system works.

For all you know Soulbinds are only useable in the uninstanced zones, and the actual ability is given immediately after a token offering that can be grinded up to twice a week.

[huth]

I didnt say all timegates are bad.

I think bad timegates for no reason = bad (like you said)

So these don't count because there's a fairly big reason for them, then?

You could easily remove the "hard lock timegates" of leveling up your covenant (wich there will be, lets not be naive here. I actually think is confirmed in one interview)

And let the "timegate" be the amount of time it takes to farm the currency to level up your covenant

'Mandatory' AP grind says hello. That'd go over like a lead baloon.

[klogaroth]

You can still be a proper munchkin in WoW, the difference is just that now Blizzard has decided that story comes first, and the munchkins have to suck it up. They can still change covenants, and if they know exactly what they want to be good at they can make that choice comfortably at the very beginning, but they will no longer be able to be a munchkin in all areas of the game at once.

You bring up D&D, but a munchkin in that would still have to somehow concoct a backstory in which their half-orc, quarter-elf, quarter-dwarf somehow learned how to throw daggers just well enough to hit a bullseye while at the same time having time to learn how to summon a demonic vendor that sells knives real cheap.
And even then, said character would still not be able to respec to a rogue jsut because the next area they discover has obscuring mists.

You missed the point. I'm not saying "still be a munchkin". I'm saying WoW IS munchkin. Entirely. Many people don't make any non-numeric character decisions. At all. It is not a role playing game, unless you define role playing games as "games with stats". In which case Call of Duty is an RPG. It is a game in which you can role play. That's different to a role playing game.

Most people don't concoct any backstory for their WoW characters, at all. They don't justify picking the cataclysm talent with a life event. It does more damage.

People pay to be able to run simulations with millions of iterations to determine the best combination of talents, gear, gems, and enchants. That's a very different game to a role playing game.

[Big Thanks]

So these don't count because there's a fairly big reason for them, then?

You think hard locks with weekly caps preventing you from leveling your covenant with currency....is fun after you decide to change Covenants?

And we shall not speak about losing all the progression of your previous covenant....because we dont know for sure yet if that happens...
But man is it a f'ing scary thought...

[NineSpine]

But I'm not though. If my criteria is "I'd like to play the most effective spec for warlock for the end boss of each tier", there is absolutely no guarantee that criteria can be met without a huge (possibly insurmountable) time tax that other people just don't face. That's also assuming that everyone guesses correctly on meta ahead of time, and that it doesn't shift due to patches or hotfixes.

The only criteria people can validly pick with the way the system works is "I think it looks cool". If that's it, does it need differing abilities between the options?

That's also assuming I only care about a single boss every several months. And ignores other bosses, and other aspects of the game.

If you want to play the best class for every boss there isn’t a guarantee that that will always be your current class so that seems like a pointless waste of time to entertain.

Your point about what looks cool is similarly silly. Why does a warlock need to play differently than a mage? Shouldn’t they be identical and just look different? This is silliness.

- - - Updated - - -

You think hard locks with weekly caps preventing you from leveling your covenant with currency....is fun after you decide to change Covenants?

And we shall not speak about losing all the progression of your previous covenant....because we dont know for sure...
But man is it a f'ing scary thought...

Yeah I’m terrified. Stop being a drama queen.

If you could grind it out, you’d whine that every week you feel compelled to spend 12 hours switching covenant.

[Big Thanks]

Yeah I’m terrified. Stop being a drama queen.

If you could grind it out, you’d whine that every week you feel compelled to spend 12 hours switching covenant.

no...never in a million years you would se me complain about having "too much freedom"
Are you insane? Too much freedom?

"Lock me up please, im a mad man"...makes no sense

[NineSpine]

You missed the point. I'm not saying "still be a munchkin". I'm saying WoW IS munchkin. Entirely. Many people don't make any non-numeric character decisions. At all. It is not a role playing game, unless you define role playing games as "games with stats". In which case Call of Duty is an RPG. It is a game in which you can role play. That's different to a role playing game.

Most people don't concoct any backstory for their WoW characters, at all. They don't justify picking the cataclysm talent with a life event. It does more damage.

You don’t recognize that there is a middle ground between “I WILL MIN MAX UNTIL I AM ABSOLUTELY OPTIMAL” and “I AM BARON KALEXIA OF THE ALLIANCE! DIE HORDE SCUM!”

And that middle ground is where most people live.

[kamuimac]

This is a whole other level of self inflicted pain. You guys are a cult worshiping Nzoth
"Oh i enjoy timegates, a mechanic that prevents me from playing the game"

Cmon man...

An easy solution would be TO REMOVE the timegates after leveling a covenant to the MAX
Dont be masochists man...

a lot of people hate wow being mmorpg

its obvious reading any of those threads

what you people want is wow to become lobby based instance symulator where no choice matters and all you have to do is to log in and do instances.

mmorpgs are always about grinds . take away that element and wow is no longer mmorpg

[NineSpine]

no...never in a million years you would se me complain about having "too much freedom"
Are you insane?

Let’s say there were not timegates, but it was 20 hours of grinding to change. Don’t lie and say that you wouldn’t cry “MY GUILD IS GOINGN TO BWNCH ME IF I DONT SWITCH ALL THE TIME AND NOW I NEED TO SPEND DAYS GRINSING!”

[Snowfunk]

I'm pretty hyped for Shadowlands, it's looking good so far.
But the Covenant abilities have got me really worried.

For me personally, I really like Venthyr, they are nosferatu, monsterlike vampires. I find that aesthetic very appealing.

But their ability for a Retribution Paladin, is looking like a complete joke, compared to the Kyrian ability.

[Sondrelk]

You missed the point. I'm not saying "still be a munchkin". I'm saying WoW IS munchkin. Entirely. Many people don't make any non-numeric character decisions. At all. It is not a role playing game, unless you define role playing games as "games with stats". In which case Call of Duty is an RPG. It is a game in which you can role play. That's different to a role playing game.

Most people don't concoct any backstory for their WoW characters, at all. They don't justify picking the cataclysm talent with a life event. It does more damage.

You seem to be badly midinformed on what actually constitutes an RPG. You still play a character, said character has a backstory even if you don't write it out, and that character also acts a certain way whether you consciously think about it or not. That is exactly what an RPG is.
And yes, you could say that this is similar to what you are doing in any other game, but there is a qualitative difference between WoW where you play a personalized named character, compared to CoD where you play a faceless gunman who runs around a tiny arena.

Also you seem to be making some pretty wild assumptions there.
I don't doubt that most players don't pick specific talents based on their TRP3 addon character sheet, but they do pick a class and transmog.
Even beyond that, picking covenants can either be seen as a choice you do for Story or cosmetics, or one you do for damage. And for both the idea that it should be a difficult choice applies. If you pick it for story then leaving it should be a difficult choice. And if you choose it for DPS then leaving it should be a difficult choice to prevent you doing it constantly.

[NineSpine]

I'm pretty hyped for Shadowlands, it's looking good so far.
But the Covenant abilities have got me really worried.

For me personally, I really like Venthyr, they are nosferatu, monsterlike vampires. I find that aesthetic very appealing.

But their ability for a Retribution Paladin, is looking like a complete joke, compared to the Kyrian ability.

If you pick based solely on one ability when you actually get two, and three soulbinds, and legendaries, you’ve already fucked up.