Shadowlands Covenants - Making the choice. Is it really as bad as people think?

[Laughingjack]

I don't think any long-running mmo-type game can continue with the same formula for any serious length of time without stagnating. The only games I know of that do are all single-player oriented. You may have to reconcile with the fact that things will change, primarily because the audience is ever-shifting. Nothing stays the same forever. :\

I mean runescape?

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Then you're going to have to live with the fact that you're in a very small group that isn't worth catering to. Most people will get bored if there isn't a bit of change every now and then.

My very small group was the largest ever to be seen in the game...

[TorAndre]

The people that don't like power behind covenant choice, seems to in most cases do not like it because they fear they will not be optimal in every situation. Like singel target vs aoe weeks or bosses.

I think it's completely insane that people should expect that they are the best for every situation. To achieve reasonable balance classes then, every class, specc, set bonus, covenant has to be very good at everything.

The idea behind covenants is that it makes you great in some apects, and worse in other.

Who would want to play a mmorpg like that for more than 1 month? Almost no one.

If you feel you can be good at everything currently, thats a big mistake by Blizzard and they should never have put you in tyat situation.

This is coming from someone who plays resto shaman in top 800 world guild that has to sit on spread fights and does best on stacking fights. Not that top 800 is super impressive, but I have some experience in this.

[Laughingjack]

The people that don't like power behind covenant choice, seems to in most cases do not like it because they fear they will not be optimal in every situation. Like singel target vs aoe weeks or bosses.

I think it's completely insane that people should expect that they are the best for every situation. To achieve reasonable balance classes then, every class, specc, set bonus, covenant has to be very good at everything.

The idea behind covenants is that it makes you great in some apects, and worse in other.

Who would want to play a mmorpg like that for more than 1 month? Almost no one.

If you feel you can be good at everything currently, thats a big mistake by Blizzard and they should never have put you in tyat situation.

This is coming from someone who plays resto shaman in top 800 world guild that has to sit on spread fights and does best on stacking fights. Not that top 800 is super impressive, but I have some experience in this.

I mean all the groups you are talking about are those that tend to play through entire patches farming mythic or pvping. The type of player that does something once and leaves tends to stick to lfr and wont care enough to max out such a system

Does a top 800 guild even have n'zoth down yet?

[TorAndre]

I mean all the groups you are talking about are those that tend to play through entire patches farming mythic or pvping. The type of player that does something once and leaves tends to stick to lfr and wont care enough to max out such a system

Does a top 800 guild even have n'zoth down yet?

Your claim that everyone above doing only LFR anf heroic dungeons expect to be completely optimal in every situation? If thats the case, we are screwed. But I don't even remotely think so.

Not sure. Quite close I think. Its only 3 months after world first which is an insane measuring stick to use anyway.

[Laughingjack]

Your claim that everyone above doing only LFR anf heroic dungeons expect to be completely optimal in every situation? If thats the case, we are screwed. But I don't even remotely think so.

Not sure. Quite close I think. Its only 3 months after world first which is an insane measuring stick to use anyway.

I'm saying it simply doesn't matter for them. Any choice they make likely wont make near the same difference between simply playing better. A choice without consequences is a meaningless choice.

Everyone who seems to be in favor of this systems seems to be of a crowd where they can actively ignore it

[Advent]

I'm saying it simply doesn't matter for them. Any choice they make likely wont make near the same difference between simply playing better. A choice without consequences is a meaningless choice.

Everyone who seems to be in favor of this systems seems to be of a crowd where they can actively ignore it

That's... kind of the point. The consequence for us is not having access to the other abilities, not what content we do or don't do. It's interesting to us because of the idea that our choice is meaningfully different from someone else beyond how they look. Because in an age of transmog, looking different is pretty easy. Being different is actually quite difficult.

[Thetruth1400]

Is it really a bad thing if you are forced to choose between a great raid ability and a pvp ability, a mythic+ ability and your ideal aesthetics? Doesn't it just mean that you simply value one thing over another? Isn't that what actually makes it a true RPG choice? Isn't that the thing that will make you feel this sense of accomplishment against your peers that chose differently based on their own needs and wants?

It's not bad per se, it just isn't good either.

Yes, it is a valuable choice; one over the other.
Yes, it makes it an example of a type of RPG choice.

That being said:
No, it will not make you feel this sense of accomplishment because you chose different.
No, it is not a healthy choice for an MMORPG.

The system will always be in flux, which mean the "right" choice today for what you decide to pick for whatever reason you pick it, isn't guaranteed to always be the "right" choice. The system isn't ideal for an MMO. A single player RPG, sure, but an MMO, no.

Balance is always an issue, concern, and factor when trying to find groups. If you're not doing everything you can to be literally the best you can, the general consensus is "You're doing it wrong" which results in a harder time finding groups.

Knowing that and knowing that we have 15 years of this game existing with it never being able to be balanced to a point where people didn't go, "No this is a sub par spec / race / class for this" its doubly bad to even exist.

[Laughingjack]

That's... kind of the point. The consequence for us is not having access to the other abilities, not what content we do or don't do. It's interesting to us because of the idea that our choice is meaningfully different from someone else beyond how they look. Because in an age of transmog, looking different is pretty easy. Being different is actually quite difficult.

I mean I look extremely different from anyone else... There are less then a thousand characters with the possibility of using the transmog i've collect through my feats of strength...

If you want to be a snowflake you kinda have to earn being a snowflake in a mmo.

All these covenants are going to do is the exact same thing talent trees, gems,enchants, glyphs, AP, azerite, essences, corruption and every other system inbetween did. People are going to google the best build and use it while soft walling off anyone who hasn't.

It has been 15 years. Your not going to be anymore unique with this then you were with the other 15. It just adds a burden to those who enjoy a different playstyle to your own.

[VinceVega]

How hard is it going to "cripple" you? And why would anyone use such extreme words to illustrate what is essentially just a single ability? I can't imagine any single ability that makes or breaks you in any content.

Yes it will. I did not exagerate and i am not only talking about the player power. Also the experience in game. If have to play a covenant that just doesn't sit well with me visually it will make the game worse for me if i would have no effect the whole discussion is needless.

Worse or on par? Because Covenants are not to be changed and make up more then 5% of your performance?
You are exaggerating. Badly.

I am not. Look for example at the Venthyr druid ability. It is a flat damage buff. The downside is you have to keep doing stuff or get dmg. So useless in PvP. Lietrally because this means a stun can kill you. But incredible in PvE situation. Any PvE situation.
Or Mage one. A cast and movement slow. 3 times. Useless in PvE but incredible in PvP.

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The people that don't like power behind covenant choice, seems to in most cases do not like it because they fear they will not be optimal in every situation. Like singel target vs aoe weeks or bosses.

I think it's completely insane that people should expect that they are the best for every situation. To achieve reasonable balance classes then, every class, specc, set bonus, covenant has to be very good at everything.

The idea behind covenants is that it makes you great in some apects, and worse in other.

Who would want to play a mmorpg like that for more than 1 month? Almost no one.

If you feel you can be good at everything currently, thats a big mistake by Blizzard and they should never have put you in tyat situation.

This is coming from someone who plays resto shaman in top 800 world guild that has to sit on spread fights and does best on stacking fights. Not that top 800 is super impressive, but I have some experience in this.

No i am not. I am allready hindred in that way by my choice in class. But now i am not only worse than other classes but worse than my own spec in certain situation. I play a ST class. AoE is shit for me and will be. I don't mind. Mostly.

I don't care that i am not OP in aoe i mind if i have to choose to be even worse.

[FlubberPuddy]

Finally, a lot of people still don't realize it, but soulbinds are a bigger deal than the core covenant abilities. We already get a peek at some soulbind options that are easily on par with core abilities if not more powerful. We don't have all the options revealed yet and I fully expect that in many cases covenant with somewhat shitty ability, might end up either competitive or outright best just because of souldbind.

People are sleeping on this. There's soulbind abilities that are akin to core class passives (Priest like ability to continue fighting for 10 secs after dying, Paladin like ability akin to Retribution passive buff when a teammate dies, etc).

Ion in the recent interview also said Legendaries will change up covenant abilities.

The more gameplay they attach to Covenants the less impactful the singular covenant class ability is, yet that's where all the focus of the conversation is at the moment.

Will be funny to see people calling Soulbinds OP when they're testable and that those should all be available as well.

[TorAndre]

Yes it will. I did not exagerate and i am not only talking about the player power. Also the experience in game. If have to play a covenant that just doesn't sit well with me visually it will make the game worse for me if i would have no effect the whole discussion is needless.



I am not. Look for example at the Venthyr druid ability. It is a flat damage buff. The downside is you have to keep doing stuff or get dmg. So useless in PvP. Lietrally because this means a stun can kill you. But incredible in PvE situation. Any PvE situation.
Or Mage one. A cast and movement slow. 3 times. Useless in PvE but incredible in PvP.

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No i am not. I am allready hindred in that way by my choice in class. But now i am not only worse than other classes but worse than my own spec in certain situation. I play a ST class. AoE is shit for me and will be. I don't mind. Mostly.

I don't care that i am not OP in aoe i mind if i have to choose to be even worse.

That's looking at the situation at the worst possible way though.

We don't know what the future bring either. There will be legendaries with set bonus like effects on them, soulbinds, and still class tuning going on. Your single-target might get even get relatively stronger, and your AOE will stey relatively the same. Or there even might less AOE needed.

The whole concept of covenants is not to give you 2 spells. Its a very broad system or effects and traits.

[VinceVega]

That's looking at the situation at the worst possible way though.

We don't know what the future bring either. There will be legendaries with set bonus like effects on them, soulbinds, and still class tuning going on. Your single-target might get even get relatively stronger, and your AOE will stey relatively the same. Or there even might less AOE needed.

The whole concept of covenants is not to give you 2 spells. Its a very broad system or effects and traits.

Yeah it is one spell and a metric ton of passive stuff... like that will not lead to problems at all...

Why is suddenly everyone believing that Blizz can balance this in any way when the last few years they could not do exactly that?

I HOPE you are right. And those abilities are balanced. BUT doesn't this defeat the whole purpose everyone is raving about? Making it meaningless choice again? Because it is balanced? So they have to make it unbalanced on purpose to be meaningful if not there was no reason at all to make them exclusive.

Ah this won't end well... exactly like all the other weird systems they tried

[Big Thanks]

I mean I look extremely different from anyone else... There are less then a thousand characters with the possibility of using the transmog i've collect through my feats of strength...

If you want to be a snowflake you kinda have to earn being a snowflake in a mmo.

All these covenants are going to do is the exact same thing talent trees, gems,enchants, glyphs, AP, azerite, essences, corruption and every other system inbetween did. People are going to google the best build and use it while soft walling off anyone who hasn't.

It has been 15 years. Your not going to be anymore unique with this then you were with the other 15. It just adds a burden to those who enjoy a different playstyle to your own.

I completely laugh at the idea that "true gameplay customization" in MMORPG's is the talent system we have today in WoW.
If your idea of "true RPG gameplay customization" is changing talents between AoE or Single target in between pulls...lets just say...we cant be friends anymore lol

Customization in WoW evolved into what we have today BECAUSE of the gameplay limitations from being:
-PvE
-Holy Trinity
-Linear combat System

What you so much enjoy to do (min maxing) stems from the FACT, "PvE in WoW is a 2D game from the early 2000's", so the customization evolved to optimize a "2D game from the early 2000's"

What you so much love...is nothing but a joke to the RPG genre.
Also when you ALWAYS min max you are no longer playing a Role Playing Game, you are playing an MMO about min maxing.

Maybe try and understand what you so much enjoy about the game (min maxing in WoW PvE) goes against everything a Roleplaying Game is and designing the entire customization system of this game around this "crap" is a paradox in itself (for the RPG genre)

[Eapoe]

I completely laugh at the idea that "true gameplay customization" in MMORPG's is the talent system we have today in WoW.
If your idea of "true RPG gameplay customization" is changing talents between AoE or Single target in between pulls...lets just say...we cant be friends anymore lol

Customization in WoW evolved into what we have today BECAUSE of the gameplay limitations from being:
-PvE
-Holy Trinity
-Linear combat System

What you so much enjoy to do (min maxing) stems from the FACT, "PvE in WoW is a 2D game from the early 2000's", so the customization evolved to optimize a "2D game from the early 2000's"

What you so much love...is nothing but a joke to the RPG genre.
Also when you ALWAYS min max you are no longer playing a Role Playing Game, you are playing an MMO about min maxing.

Maybe try and understand what you so much enjoy about the game (min maxing in WoW PvE) goes against everything a Roleplaying Game is and designing the entire customization system of this game around this "crap" is a paradox in itself.

What a load of self fulfilling crap. RPGs are not just about cutomization, and acting like that’s the whole point is disingenuous and stupid.
Only people who don’t know better customize outside of the norm. It’s like people saying in Classic they were just as and oh so highly viable picking whatever talent they wanted even though they held back the group and got carried.
There is always a cookie cutter way to play the game that is best. You have just as much choice to pick the wrong things in Retail as you do in Classic.
Quit spouting off this terrible nonsense like it’s factual gospel.

[Big Thanks]

What a load of self fulfilling crap. RPGs are not just about cutomization, and acting like that’s the whole point is disingenuous and stupid.
Only people who don’t know better customize outside of the norm. It’s like people saying in Classic they were just as and oh so highly viable picking whatever talent they wanted even though they held back the group and got carried.
There is always a cookie cutter way to play the game that is best. You have just as much choice to pick the wrong things in Retail as you do in Classic.
Quit spouting off this terrible nonsense like it’s factual gospel.

Having a hard time understanding your reply to my post.

RPGs are not just about cutomization, and acting like that’s the whole point is disingenuous and stupid.

There isnt such a thing as a Roleplaying Game without customization.

Only people who don’t know better customize outside of the norm.

This is only true because of how linear PvE in WoW is.
PvP is a whole different story (not by much, but still a whole different story)

It’s like people saying in Classic they were just as and oh so highly viable picking whatever talent they wanted even though they held back the group and got carried

I never once said the word Classic.
Classic PvE is just as linear.

How did my post came to your reply?

[ymirsson]

Well... if you enjoy pvp past 2k, mythic raiding, and/or mythic+ past 18. A single ability is rather huge never mind the soulbinds. Each mode values different things more and to far greater degrees.

A ability that only adds movement is sometimes taken over a output ability depending on class and content.

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See above.

Ah yes, so you absolutely NEED any possible ability at your disposal, or the game becomes worthless? Do you play 12 classes at once? We already have lots of decisions to make regarding the actual class/race/spec/talent to choose, so why should this be any different? And if its a slog to change, unlike talents for example, why would anyone expect to play at the highest level without commitment at the highest level? Mythic raiders already play several classes during progression, so i am told, why stop there? You want it? Earn it.

Whereas people playing a character whom they are attached to just take one choice and stick with it.

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I completely laugh at the idea that "true gameplay customization" in MMORPG's is the talent system we have today in WoW.
If your idea of "true RPG gameplay customization" is changing talents between AoE or Single target in between pulls...lets just say...we cant be friends anymore lol

Customization in WoW evolved into what we have today BECAUSE of the gameplay limitations from being:
-PvE
-Holy Trinity
-Linear combat System

What you so much enjoy to do (min maxing) stems from the FACT, "PvE in WoW is a 2D game from the early 2000's", so the customization evolved to optimize a "2D game from the early 2000's"

What you so much love...is nothing but a joke to the RPG genre.
Also when you ALWAYS min max you are no longer playing a Role Playing Game, you are playing an MMO about min maxing.

Maybe try and understand what you so much enjoy about the game (min maxing in WoW PvE) goes against everything a Roleplaying Game is and designing the entire customization system of this game around this "crap" is a paradox in itself (for the RPG genre)

In all your posts you never really defined the "true customization". And i dare say every single computer game is limited in that regard.

[Yarou]

Where can i see how every covenant set fits with each race??? I only see pictures with humans

[Big Thanks]

In all your posts you never really defined the "true customization". And i dare say every single computer game is limited in that regard.

Humm...thats an interesting point

Yes, all games are limited to a "choice between predetermined options available on the menu list"

IMO "true customization in gameplay" in RPG's is when is possible to express yourself in different ways and "Roleplay" different ways to play the game.

Because IF you limit "gameplay customization" to "performance and numbers"...isnt this a paradox?
In fact, if you limit customization to performance and numbers you can say exactly this:

"Customization in Gameplay DOESNT EXIST is a LIE and an ILLUSION"

So...my question to you is:
"How can anyone promote the idea of customization in gameplay AND at the same time promote the idea is just a numbers game?"

[Gaidax]

I completely laugh at the idea that "true gameplay customization" in MMORPG's is the talent system we have today in WoW.
If your idea of "true RPG gameplay customization" is changing talents between AoE or Single target in between pulls...lets just say...we cant be friends anymore lol

Customization in WoW evolved into what we have today BECAUSE of the gameplay limitations from being:
-PvE
-Holy Trinity
-Linear combat System

What you so much enjoy to do (min maxing) stems from the FACT, "PvE in WoW is a 2D game from the early 2000's", so the customization evolved to optimize a "2D game from the early 2000's"

What you so much love...is nothing but a joke to the RPG genre.
Also when you ALWAYS min max you are no longer playing a Role Playing Game, you are playing an MMO about min maxing.

Maybe try and understand what you so much enjoy about the game (min maxing in WoW PvE) goes against everything a Roleplaying Game is and designing the entire customization system of this game around this "crap" is a paradox in itself (for the RPG genre)

I mean, it's a social game, where the norms are dictated by the community and community made it clear that balance and viability are more important, simply because that's what gets you into the groups.

When the dust settles, it's really nice for roleplay that you can do some total soup of stuff character that fights with weird weapons and setups, but this simply crashes into walls of reality where your sorry ass simply won't be picked for any sort of reasonable group activity.

[rrayy]

Your being handed that choice... its not like covenants are locked behind mythic raiding...

We have 15 years of wow and not one of these alternative power progression paths have done well since it released. This is just adding another corpse to the heap.

ANd you know that ow? It hasn't even released yet. Oh right, you have decided your opinion is fact and you are sticking to your narrative come hell or high water. Fact is there have been good things and bad things about each feature they have added. They will never 100% please everyone. But that does not mean they never did well.

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How are you handed everything? You still need to invest in each covenant to progress your soulbinds, you still need relics for each soulbind, you still need anima and forgotten souls to progress the cosmetics. You aren't handed anything.

You missed the point entirely. Real choice comes with consequences. That means if you choose one thing, you will have to sacrifice something else to get it. Your way has none of that because you are given access to everything and there is absolutely no downside. There is no choice in your way.