Items are/was the problem?

[Kaver]

Sorry for grammar error in the headline. Meant to say "were". I'm not a native of an english speaking country. Don't flame me please

In BFA, Blizzard have introduced items which are/were contributing strongly to making certain classes OP.

In 8.2 Outlaw Rogues were pretty OP and received a nerf. But why was they so OP? This was partly due to them having access to both Diver's Folly and the Razor Coral trinket. Two extremely overpowered items. Multiple classes had access to the Razor Coral, but only DH and Rogue had access to Diver's Folly. In 8.2 we often saw the proc of Diver's Folly do 5-8 % of the overall dungeon damage of a Rogue. This is completely insane. And keep in mind that it is FREE extra damage. There was not tradeoff. Diver's Folly had both stats and the proc. Now I'm not saying that the Blade Flurry nerf that Outlaw Rogues received in 8.2 wasn't the right thing to do, but we should consider the fact that being able to Dual Wield Diver's Folly was a strong factor of why this spec was so OP.

We see the same situation with Fire Mages now. One of the reasons why they are so extremely good is because they can use the Mechagon Bracers and the Font of Power trinket. Sure they also scale well with mastery and having the mastery corruption is also a big factor. But if these two items were removed from the game, we would see the Fire mage lose a lot of power.

My point is, while we are demanding Blizzard to put more interesting items in the game we still need to consider what these items do to the balance of the game when only some classes have access to them or they just benefit much more strongly from them than any other class.

[Saltysquidoon]

Mate, I don't know how long you've been playing wow but trinkets (or tier for example) have always had the possibility of making a class or spec op for a patch. This isn't the first time it's happened nor will it be the last.

[Ragnarohk]

Mate, I don't know how long you've been playing wow but trinkets (or tier for example) have always had the possibility of making a class or spec op for a patch. This isn't the first time it's happened nor will it be the last.

Fo a patch? Some items were broken a whole expansion (Shard of Woe from Sinestra comes to mind)

[Kaver]

Mate, I don't know how long you've been playing wow but trinkets (or tier for example) have always had the possibility of making a class or spec op for a patch. This isn't the first time it's happened nor will it be the last.

But the problem is when Blizzard for example start to nerf or buff classes based on those items. Also, what have happened in the past is not an argument for what should happen in the future. Things change. This thread was more created to discuss the future rather than comment on the past

[Saltysquidoon]

But the problem is when Blizzard for example start to nerf or buff classes based on those items. Also, what have happened in the past is not an argument for what should happen in the future. Things change. This thread was more created to discuss the future rather than comment on the past

The reverse happens too, in Nighthold they nerfed the gul'dan trinket explicitly for the unholy dk.

Also, I was only saying blizzard is shit at balancing so it will happen again. Not that they should be shit at balancing.

[Kaver]

The reverse happens too, in Nighthold they nerfed the gul'dan trinket explicitly for the unholy dk.

Also, I was only saying blizzard is shit at balancing so it will happen again. Not that they should be shit at balancing.

You just presented a "well that's just how it is, accept it"-attitude. To me it has absolutely no value when people use the argument of "that's how it has always been"

I played Unholy in Legion so I'm very familiar with that nerf. However, it's much better when they nerf an item based on a spec than when they nerf a spec based on an item. The problem with them nerfing classes based on specific items is that the class will still be nerfed once that item is not relevant anymore.

[ymirsson]

So what exactly is this discussion to be about?

[Kaver]

So what exactly is this discussion to be about?

Scenarios where some specs are being OP due to specific Items.

For example, Fire mage is pretty OP right now. But it's not because of the class itself. It's because of items which have a special synergy with the Fire spec. So rather than nerfing the Fire Mage, Blizzard should nerf the items.

Also, I don't think Blizzard should make weapons like Diver's Folly which are extremely powerful and then only make them accessible to a few specs. Especially not when they then nerf a spec based on that item.

[Saltysquidoon]

You just presented a "well that's just how it is, accept it"-attitude. To me it has absolutely no value when people use the argument of "that's how it has always been"

Ok. But we've had 15 years to see that they consistently make these types of errors. Even if they hadn't consistently messed up, the only way to ensure this stuff can never happen is if trinkets are boring stat sticks.
My perception is that on balance people prefer fun trinkets and the risk of a fuck up over stat sticks, maybe I'm wrong.

I played Unholy in Legion so I'm very familiar with that nerf. However, it's much better when they nerf an item based on a spec than when they nerf a spec based on an item. The problem with them nerfing classes based on specific items is that the class will still be nerfed once that item is not relevant anymore.

I'm just salty they nerfed it like 2 days after it dropped for me and it was still broken op for arms and feral, just crap for me which feels bad.

On topic are we sure it was just the thinks, I know for outlaw they're slapping it again in shadowlands. Maybe blade flurry was just too good in M+.

For example, Fire mage is pretty OP right now. But it's not because of the class itself. It's because of items which have a special synergy with the Fire spec. So rather than nerfing the Fire Mage, Blizzard should nerf the items.

It's not just items either though, it's also traits and essences. I thought the point of all these 'tuning knobs' was to make it easier to nerf specs without putting them in the dumpster.

[ymirsson]

Scenarios where some specs are being OP due to specific Items.

For example, Fire mage is pretty OP right now. But it's not because of the class itself. It's because of items which have a special synergy with the Fire spec. So rather than nerfing the Fire Mage, Blizzard should nerf the items.

Also, I don't think Blizzard should make weapons like Diver's Folly which are extremely powerful and then only make them accessible to a few specs. Especially not when they then nerf a spec based on that item.

So essentially, you say "Blizzard should balance better"?

[Throwme]

This thread was more created to discuss the future rather than comment on the past

Then why bring up an issue from 8.2, which was the previous patch?

It's not wrong to say "it has always been that way". Just like it won't be wrong to say "it will always be that way". Because balance is impossible to achieve to the point where it will never happen again. At some point, some fancy new item will have some fancy new effect that has a perfect synergy with whatever class/spec ability is fancy at that time. The devs might overlook it, the beta players might overlook it, but eventually someone among the playerbase will hit the right ability at the right time in combination with the thing and boom, overpowered as fck. It is inevitable.

[Kaver]

It's not wrong to say "it has always been that way".

I didn't say it was wrong to say that. But I think it's a bad argument for not trying to improve things. The goal is to not have over powered items in the game. Just because it cannot be achieved to perfection doesn't mean you shouldn't try to improve it.

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At some point, some fancy new item will have some fancy new effect that has a perfect synergy with whatever class/spec ability is fancy at that time. The devs might overlook it, the beta players might overlook it

I agree, but an Item like Diver's Folly was very obviously over powered. I didn't take much to see that. And when only 2 classes have access to it, it is clearly a problem. Especially when a spec end up being nerfed based on that item.

The Mechagon bracers were also very obviously over-powered from the start. Most players could see that.

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It is inevitable.

It might be inevitable. But you can still try to improve to which degree the item is over-powered.

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So essentially, you say "Blizzard should balance better"?

I see what you are trying to do here but there is no need to act like that. If you don't like or understand the thread then just ignore it. It's completely okay.

[ymirsson]

I see what you are trying to do here but there is no need to act like that. If you don't like or understand the thread then just ignore it. It's completely okay.

I don't understand it indeed. I was actually hoping you could tell me what you want to discuss. How to prevent similar extremes? What would you suggest?

Simply saying "x is obviously overpowered, everyone could have seen that beforehand" is rather plain.

[Throwme]

I agree, but an Item like Diver's Folly was very obviously over powered. I didn't take much to see that. And when only 2 classes have access to it, it is clearly a problem.

You need to be slightly more factual if you want your argument to have any meaning. 4 classes and 5 specs have access to Diver's Folly. It's a simple axe. It's available to more than just 2 classes, even if it isn't good for whatever reason for the others.

As for the bracers, they may be OP for a firemage, but a shadowpriest or affliction warlock will gain very little from them. Are you saying that no item ever should be super good for someone if it isn't super good for everyone?

[Gaidax]

No shit Sherlock.

The thing is, we always will have items that synergy extremely well with specific specs. It's Wow staple and it's fine, it's as it should be. It means the items are interesting.

If it. Will require Blizz to adjust their balancing knobs, then so be it.

[Bigbazz]

Classes/specs being OP during a specific content era has happened in every single patch of WoW. Typically Warlocks, Rogues, Hunters and Mages have been at the head of that list (probably because Blizzard has been more reluctant to nerf them compared to hybrids) but it happens across the board, every time. It seems pretty obvious that Blizzard even intentionally goes for the flavour of the month thing where the balance is messed up because people enjoy being overpowered.

Balance isn't good for business, it would seem. You can go right back to the start of WoW and balance is just crazy.. In TBC they attempted to balance it and got it pretty good by the end, then you have WOTLK where everything was whacky, they got it pretty good by the end and then you had Cataclysm and it has been spiralling out of control since then. I've seen Blizzard nerfing already underpowered specs and buffing already overpowered specs, I've seen them make hilariously over the top buffs or nerfs to class balance. I've seen them leave OP items untouched and I've seen them crush OP items into the ground.

There doesn't seem to be much method to it, they aren't consistent with their logic and it seems like they just wing it.

[Marrilaife]

In TBC they attempted to balance it and got it pretty good by the end,

You mean that time when people wanted to stack warlocks & shamans for SWP?

What's most annoying is some classes constantly get their "5 mins of glory" while others never get it. In the relative picture, warlocks, mages, rogues, hunters, spriests had multiple patches when they were OP, meanwhile shamans, dps monks, ferals, rets had very very few moments of being op in pve, and were nerfed out of that state much faster than group 1.

[CerealLord]

You mean that time when people wanted to stack warlocks & shamans for SWP?

What's most annoying is some classes constantly get their "5 mins of glory" while others never get it. In the relative picture, warlocks, mages, rogues, hunters, spriests had multiple patches when they were OP, meanwhile shamans, dps monks, ferals, rets had very very few moments of being op in pve, and were nerfed out of that state much faster than group 1.

Chain lightning on the Garrosh fight tho...Mmm mmm mmmm

[Bigbazz]

You mean that time when people wanted to stack warlocks & shamans for SWP?

What's most annoying is some classes constantly get their "5 mins of glory" while others never get it. In the relative picture, warlocks, mages, rogues, hunters, spriests had multiple patches when they were OP, meanwhile shamans, dps monks, ferals, rets had very very few moments of being op in pve, and were nerfed out of that state much faster than group 1.

In Sunwell you could do pretty well with a strat that pushed melees, hunters or warlocks, or a balanced team (like the SK gaming world first) so yes pretty good. Mages were a little left behind in Sunwell compared to locks but the rest of the expansion they were fantastic and still fine for Sunwell, behind locks but still good. Enhance and Ele shamans had a raid spot, Boomkin, Ret Pala.. Really TBC was well balanced, even the lower specs weren't "that" far behind with equal opportunity.

Of course no tier or expansion is perfectly balanced, but TBC was one of the better balanced expansions and it had no wild crazy shit like you saw pretty regularly from T12 onwards where specs were literally out of control and could be in a complete different alternate universe to some of the less "OP" specs. TBC had moments of this of course, Warlocks and Mages on the rare AOE fights (Morogrim) compared to specs that had no AOE, or DPS Warriors on cleave fights.

But I think WOTLK embraced the AOE aspect of the game and when things had been ironed out the balance was really good, a few extremes on AOE but otherwise really close. If you used Saurfang as an example, balance was great. HFC was a good example of why the problem exists, shorter fight durations combined with burst dps classes. Mages in HFC had exceptional sustained dps over a long fight, but that was as a result of absolute monstrous burst, by contrast if you used Iron Reaver as an example the balance was fucked.