Are you happy with unholy in shadowlands?

[infinitemeridian]

No - the entire rotation is built around setup and never feels like you've made a payoff, especially when the core of applying and bursting wounds feels so weak.

UH has way too many cooldowns, on top of being a class that has a pet AND dots makes your "normal" abilities of SS / FS / DC feel incredibly underwhelming. This is on top of low mobility and little to no visual identity compared to frost (or any other melee for that matter).

The spec suffers from nearly every possible issue a spec can have - poor mobility, rampup, pet AI, bad target switching, GCD exacerbation. And for what? Quadratic scaling AoE? Does not seem like a good trade off to me, especially when many classes bring strong AoE without suffering from the other issues.

[Th3Scourge]

Ghouls can always be within targets with proper control, that much is accurate, but the DK themselves can and will be forced out of melee range to deal with various mechanics including but not limited to goop on the floor or whirlwinds and whatever else. You can't always just tunnel while sitting on top of your ghoul. And when you need to press DT to get the damage, having to wait for the missile to get there can be the difference between getting the damage you need out when you need it and not. There's functionally no reason why the missile needs to work this way, the travel time of the missile isn't helping anything.

If you are out of range due to a mechanic then you are likely not doing any meaningful damage. By that example it matters not if there is a missile travel or a GCD, because you are doing fuck all damage during that period. Having the DT missile travel for 1 second makes next to no difference in those situations.

in 99% of situations your ghoul is next to you or near enough where it makes no difference. On top of that, the uptime window is the same so your ghoul is transformed for exactly the same amount of time so you don't lose anything there.

[Razion]

If you are out of range due to a mechanic then you are likely not doing any meaningful damage. By that example it matters not if there is a missile travel or a GCD, because you are doing fuck all damage during that period. Having the DT missile travel for 1 second makes next to no difference in those situations.

in 99% of situations your ghoul is next to you or near enough where it makes no difference. On top of that, the uptime window is the same so your ghoul is transformed for exactly the same amount of time so you don't lose anything there.

That's not true at all. You can save RP for Death Coil and Clawing Shadows is a recommended talent at the moment. Combined with Epidemic for AoE situations (the most common situation you'll be in dire need of DT) you can still do quite a lot from a distance.

And even when these talents aren't ideal, this doesn't change the fact even if you're out of range you may still need damage just a moment faster and that can be the difference between group members dying because a target or targets didn't get the damage they needed.

DT having the travel time doesn't make sense - this isn't Shatter combo for Frost Mages. A moment faster on the DT can make all the difference. It doesn't need to have the travel time to make this core burst damage ability delay. It's unnecessary ramp in situations where you're already being punished for not being in range even if functionally you have played around this and all you're losing out on is auto damage.

[Th3Scourge]

That's not true at all. You can save RP for Death Coil and Clawing Shadows is a recommended talent at the moment. Combined with Epidemic for AoE situations (the most common situation you'll be in dire need of DT) you can still do quite a lot from a distance.

And even when these talents aren't ideal, this doesn't change the fact even if you're out of range you may still need damage just a moment faster and that can be the difference between group members dying because a target or targets didn't get the damage they needed.

DT having the travel time doesn't make sense - this isn't Shatter combo for Frost Mages. A moment faster on the DT can make all the difference. It doesn't need to have the travel time to make this core burst damage ability delay. It's unnecessary ramp in situations where you're already being punished for not being in range even if functionally you have played around this and all you're losing out on is auto damage.

OK, quantify to me the dps loss from having a travel time on DT? There is never a situation where you need a moment faster on your DT.

DT having a travel time quite literally has zero impact on your dps. I've played UH for CE on every boss this xpac and have not once even thought this was a problem. Ghoul transforms for 15 sec regardless of whether he is next to me or out in Africa.

[Razion]

OK, quantify to me the dps loss from having a travel time on DT? There is never a situation where you need a moment faster on your DT.

DT having a travel time quite literally has zero impact on your dps. I've played UH for CE on every boss this xpac and have not once even thought this was a problem. Ghoul transforms for 15 sec regardless of whether he is next to me or out in Africa.

This is a situation about burst, about preventing bad situations from happening because you got critical damage out when you needed to. It isn't about total damage of the ability over time. Unholy historically had a bit of a theme with sustain damage in the past, but nowadays people bring Unholy around for huge insane AoE scaling and for destroying large groups quickly. The functional fantasy of Unholy has changed, an DT hasn't changed to adapt to it.

[Th3Scourge]

This is a situation about burst, about preventing bad situations from happening because you got critical damage out when you needed to. It isn't about total damage of the ability over time. Unholy historically had a bit of a theme with sustain damage in the past, but nowadays people bring Unholy around for huge insane AoE scaling and for destroying large groups quickly. The functional fantasy of Unholy has changed, an DT hasn't changed to adapt to it.

You quite literally make no sense. You say people bring UH because of big AoE burst, of which it is already doing with DT in it's current state that you dislike so much.

you say:

a situation about burst

DT already contributes to that. As you said yourself, UH is brought to keys for that very reason

critical damage out when you needed to

There is never a time at which one aoe attack from the DT ghoul will be impacted by the travel. You will almost always transform him when he is grouped with adds, pooling energy with auto-claw off prior to using DT

The functional fantasy of Unholy has changed, an DT hasn't changed to adapt to it

Neither the funtional fantasy of Unholy is impact in the slightest degree by the travel when using DT

Again, you can't quantify this, because there is no net loss from using this spell. I can only assume you don't know how to play the spec if you see this as an issue

[Zorachus]

Clawing Shadows is the recommended talent now for M+? Is that for current BfA too?

[Draken4o1]

infected claws+bursting wounds is the best m+ setup atm.

I personaly want to see Dark transformation off gcd together with unholy frenzy and gargoyle. A button that activates a buff that last 10-15 secs.. and you lose 1-2 seconds of it just because you pressed it. Its wrong.. and it needs to be off gcd. Those are all buttons that do not do instant damage. It will not result a "oneshot" macro.
And the problem ppl already mentioned above. We need 10+seconds to press all those things untill we start the rotation. Currently in bfa with 80% base haste and memory of lucid dreams - thats not a problem. But without those things... im afraid unholy will be back to the clunky rune/rp starved spec that it was in early bfa and we will wait till later in shadowlands with higher haste values to be able to play the spec smoothly again.
I do like the mastery buff. And it will push the stat higher in value compared to bfa.
Anyway.. no beta/alpha access here.. so im just speaking as an observer.

[Saltysquidoon]

I mean with the leggos and the soulbinds DT is going to be rolling for a while.

[The Butt Witch]

I will like unholy when Unholy Frenzy will no longer be the best choice for everything. I cba having one more short dps cd.

[Nayami]

Not too happy with a few things, especially the Outbreak spread change which leads to even more setup for Unholy with minimal return. Losing the Virulent Plague proc chance sucks too, I can understand that they are nerfing AoE across all classes but at least replace the old effect with something new.

The "new" talent Hellchains is obviously a quick and lazy replacement imo. Does not feel like a final row talent. Gone are the days where we actually get something new and fun as a talent replacement.

Epidemic is still not baseline, creating yet another dead talent row.

Last but not least... Death Grip is still on the GCD

[psyquest]

On the verge? We're over the GCD cliff for an opener. As user Kalrell on the official forums has said below.



13.5 seconds of gcds just to get the ball rolling when most classes just hit their singular iwin button and go to town. In addition with gargoyle lasting 30secs the target is either dead before it's duration is finished, or is CC'D in PvP and there is nothing we can do about it to counter that CC.

it is actually 15 seconds due to globals:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1286736353980379137


you lost a lot of DT and nearly half of blood lust if used on pull...

[Seratox]

Maybe unpopular opinion, but I've always wanted to see the following things changed for Unholy.

Festering strike applies virulent plague to a single target and also applies two festering wounds.

Scourge Strike consumes 3 festering wounds for 30% increased damage per wound.

New ability to apply 6 wounds to primary target, 3 to nearby targets.

Sludge Belcher returned as a talent in first row, replaces Infected Claws. Infected Claws made baseline.

Magus of the damned replaces clawing shadows in first Row. This makes the entire first row determine what type of pet you have, each with unique abilities. Each pet has distinct Dark Transformation abilities.

Apocalypse summons whichever pets you didnt pick from first row. Ex. If you pick Magus, it summons Sludge Belcher and Archer.

New Ability Feeding Frenzy. Consumes your primary pet to increase damage dealt, movement speed, and haste by 15%. Your auto attacks have a 20% chance to put a festering wound in the target. Lasts until Raise Dead is cast again.

These changes, at least in my opinion, give a great deal more satisfaction from the Unholy rotation, in my opinion. I feel like proper wound management would feel rewarding and this would give Unholy the ability to do some quick snap-damage if needed.

Also, bring presences back. Everything has been downhill since those went away.

[Cloe]

I need haste but not too much haste. So it might be good at first for me. I don’t want to control a ghoul tho yo.

[Tojara]

UH looks good, aside from the GCD problems.

If they have to scale back the power of some UH DK abilities to compensate for removing the GCD on half of the CDs, so be it. Other than that, they could consolidate a bit more of UH DPS into buttons you actually press, instead of just passive pet/disease damage.

[DeiVias]

They need a purge on short DPS cooldowns.

[Nayami]

First they fucked Outbreak, now they fucked DnD cleave. No, not happy at all. I get that they want to nerf AoE across the board but chopping off a spec's balls without any form of compensation is not the way to go.

Honorable mentions:
- Copy pasted legiondary effects
- The only talent that was made baseline was lazily replaced with a copy pasted passive azerite essence
- Talents that make the spec feel empty when not picked (Epidemic, Unholy Frenzy) are not baseline
- Most talents being untouched and multiple dead rows
- Virulent Plague explosion proc removed and replaced with absolutely nothing
- No GCD changes reverted, tons of GCDs are used for a ton of setup and Death Grip on the GCD is just silly

But hey, at least we got AMZ lol

[chilblains]

well they haven't nerfed Defile or Death's Due (Night Fae covenant ability) at least in tooltip, and a passive modifier gained at level 43 for DnD is still up. perhaps Defile will be way to go for cleave?

[Nnyco]

First they fucked Outbreak, now they fucked DnD cleave. No, not happy at all. I get that they want to nerf AoE across the board but chopping off a spec's balls without any form of compensation is not the way to go.

They literally said they change all Aoe's to 5 and 8, if you thought scourge strike would somehow not get the treatment as everyother then you must be dreaming.

[Levogames]

The aoe nerf is the end of the game itself, by now, I don't care about the obvious death of unholy spec because the expansion is just a big fail right now.