Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Yuujin]

Unfortunately, you can't do away with qualified immunity entirely with how lawsuits function in the US, because it would result in all levels of government being financially vulnerable to frivolous lawsuits. Lawsuits which will ultimately be placing the economic on the tax payers... and in most states, on the education system which tends to be the first area cuts are made to.

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Everything that eschatological has said about the Buffalo PD checks out in spades.

The abundance of frivolous lawsuits in America is a myth. And taxpayers already foot the bill for lawsuits against police.

[Kasierith]

First of all, this "excited delirium" medical crisis that you asserted with great authority, which you attributed in no small part to drugs in his system--in other words, the victim's behavior--is so far no more than wild speculation on your part, and is completely unsupported by two different autopsies. What you hold the officer accountable for is not having the training to recognize this "known syndrome" that Floyd inflicted on himself by taking fentanyl and getting arrested, and failing to render aid, when the chain of events is that 3 grown men kneeled on him choking off his air supply for 9 minutes, well after he'd become unresponsive and probably died. Yes, you are going to be called out for quibbling over the "actual" cause of death because it sounds just like the old "it wasn't the gunshot that killed him, it was the blood loss." Except here you're attributing the blood loss to drug use, and faulting cops' lack of medical training (as if that would have helped). It is an indefensible position using old racist tropes to explain away racially animated police brutality. If you don't like confronting that, then examine and revise your position.

Last I checked, he wasn't dead on scene, but died at the hospital ER. He experienced cardiac arrest while en route in the ambulance.

If you aren't familiar with the sequence of events as they occurred, that's fine.. just say that up front, instead of arguing for, what... 5 hours? Based on your faulty information. I have to say, I didn't know that a simple term used by emergency responders, both EMTs and the police, would trigger you this severely.

Oh.. and I never said he died due to the drugs in his system. I'd point out what I actually said, but alas we'd run into the reading comprehension wall again.

[Edge-]

Last I checked, he wasn't dead on scene, but died at the hospital ER. He experienced cardiac arrest while en route in the ambulance.

That's the police line. Independent autopsy contradicts this -

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/ge...psy/index.html

Floyd was dead within four minutes after he was held to the ground, the independent examiners said.

Being officially pronounced dead at the hospital doesn't mean that's where you died. It just means that's where it was officially recorded.

[Yuujin]

That's the police line. Independent autopsy contradicts this -

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/ge...psy/index.html



Being officially pronounced dead at the hospital doesn't mean that's where you died. It just means that's where it was officially recorded.

Many people don't understand that last bit. Again, too much TV, not enough reality.

[Egomaniac]

Last I checked, he wasn't dead on scene, but died at the hospital ER. He experienced cardiac arrest while en route in the ambulance.

If you aren't familiar with the sequence of events as they occurred, that's fine.. just say that up front, instead of arguing for, what... 5 hours? Based on your faulty information. I have to say, I didn't know that a simple term used by emergency responders, both EMTs and the police, would trigger you this severely.

Well, this post didn't age very well.

Now, are you just going to admit you aren't familiar with the sequence of events as they occurred...or are you going to argue about it for 5 hours?

[Kasierith]

That's the police line. Independent autopsy contradicts this -

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/ge...psy/index.html



Being officially pronounced dead at the hospital doesn't mean that's where you died. It just means that's where it was officially recorded.

Has the official autopsy been released yet? Last I checked they were doing a second examination to review the initial results, and were slowed by the lack of immediate tissue samples that the first autopsy benefited from being able to perform right away. The "he was dead at X point" seems more along the lines of illustrating the point given that, but if more information has been made available I'll be perfectly fine reassessing the situation. As is, however, the ambulance reported he was experiencing cardiac arrest while en route, and he was pronounced dead an hour after retrieval by EMT's at the ER.

[Levelfive]

Last I checked, he wasn't dead on scene, but died at the hospital ER. He experienced cardiac arrest while en route in the ambulance.

If you aren't familiar with the sequence of events as they occurred, that's fine.. just say that up front, instead of arguing for, what... 5 hours? Based on your faulty information. I have to say, I didn't know that a simple term used by emergency responders, both EMTs and the police, would trigger you this severely.

Oh.. and I never said he died due to the drugs in his system. I'd point out what I actually said, but alas we'd run into the reading comprehension wall again.

It's likely he died at the scene--I posted an article earlier in the thread about first responders' attempts to revive him for 90+ minutes, though again, is that somehow mitigating for you? It explains officers' decision to keep kneeling on him well after he stopped responding? You have cited drugs numerous times, which is why I've pointed out the only reason to do so is to mitigate police responsibility for his death. I get that you do not understand the implications of what you've said, repeatedly, but at this point, you're the person asking why saying All Lives Matter is racist.

[Elegiac]

The abundance of frivolous lawsuits in America is a myth. And taxpayers already foot the bill for lawsuits against police.

It's funny how people don't realise they're spewing propaganda when they saw "America has so many frivolous lawsuits" when the number one example of that lie is a woman suing McDonalds for their coffee being too hot. Of course what such people won't tell you or don't know is that a) the coffee was sufficiently hot to cause second and third degree burns, and b) they'd been cited before for keeping their coffee too hot prior to the incident. But the narrative has become "look how entitled Americans are, suing McDonalds" because that is the one most favorable to the company, which was clearly in the wrong.

The same thing applies here. People keep freely citing shit from these police departments as evidence when they don't seem to grasp the inherent conflict of interest, or the long history such departments have of finessing their way out of accountability using the letter of the law.

All in all; it speaks to people more interested in law and order than justice and welfare.

[Kasierith]

Well, this post didn't age very well.

Now, are you just going to admit you aren't familiar with the sequence of events as they occurred...or are you going to argue about it for 5 hours?

Care to produce the autopsy?

[Yuujin]

It's funny how people don't realise they're spewing propaganda when they saw "America has so many frivolous lawsuits" when the number one example of that lie is a woman suing McDonalds for their coffee being too hot. Of course what such people won't tell you or don't know is that a) the coffee was sufficiently hot to cause second and third degree burns, and b) they'd been cited before for keeping their coffee too hot prior to the incident. But the narrative has become "look how entitled Americans are, suing McDonalds" because that is the one most favorable to the company, which was clearly in the wrong.

The same thing applies here. People keep freely citing shit from these police departments as evidence when they don't seem to grasp the inherent conflict of interest, or the long history such departments have of finessing their way out of accountability using the letter of the law.

All in all; it speaks to people more interested in law and order than justice and welfare.

It doesnt help that Ronald Reagan also addressed the case in one of his speeches to further drive the narrative.

[Elegiac]

It doesnt help that Ronald Reagan also addressed the case in one of his speeches to further drive the narrative.

It really annoys me how on every single fucking social or economic issue you care to name, you try to dig to the root of the problem and it is always either 'CAPITALISM' or 'RACISM' in graven letters at the base.

It's funny though. Police, like capitalism, are relatively modern inventions yet we've been conditioned to believe human society can function without neither.

[Kasierith]

It's likely he died at the scene--I posted an article earlier in the thread about first responders' attempts to revive him for 90+ minutes, though again, is that somehow mitigating for you? It explains officers' decision to keep kneeling on him well after he stopped responding? You have cited drugs numerous times, which is why I've pointed out the only reason to do so is to mitigate police responsibility for his death. I get that you do not understand the implications of what you've said, repeatedly, but at this point, you're the person asking why saying All Lives Matter is racist.

I mentioned them once when pointing out that concurrent factors can escalate to a medical crisis. Apart from that, it's pretty much been in response to you.

As for saying all lives matters is racist, addressed and answered above. If you want to critique my response to that, have at it.

[Machismo]

Care to produce the autopsy?

In all reality, an autopsy isn't going to reveal exactly when someone died.

If you watch the video, you can clearly see he is unresponsive, and does not appear to be breathing at all for a few minutes on the video.

[Edge-]

Has the official autopsy been released yet?

Depends on what you mean by "official"?

We have the county medical examiner autopsy, which paints a rosier picture for the cops, and then the independent autopsy paid for by the family that does the opposite.

Last I checked they were doing a second examination to review the initial results, and were slowed by the lack of immediate tissue samples that the first autopsy benefited from being able to perform right away.

Not that I can find. Both reports appear to have come out Monday, and I'm not seeing anything about an additional review.

As is, however, the ambulance reported he was experiencing cardiac arrest while en route, and he was pronounced dead an hour after retrieval by EMT's at the ER.

https://www.ems1.com/fatal-incidents...khsaX8aF14EFn/

By the time George Floyd was en route to the hospital Monday evening, he was unresponsive and without a pulse. But for nearly an hour, first responders and ER staff refused to give up on the 46-year-old St. Louis Park man in their care.

...

“I’ve got a red medical, we’ll be there in approximately six minutes,” a medic relayed, according to emergency dispatch audio. “Thirties, male, was being detained by PD … was on a … was a cardiac arrest upon EMS arrival, apparently doing CPR, getting access, getting vitals, bagging, calling ACLS [advanced cardiovascular life support], we’ll be there in six minutes, red medical, COVID symptoms are unknown.”

Floyd’s condition never changed, even after an electric shock to the chest. The incident report stops once he was handed off to emergency room staff. Doctors continued additional lifesaving measures, but Scheerer declined to specify what kind, citing medical privacy rules.

He had no heartbeat when paramedics arrived. They tried necessitating and were unable to do so.

More - https://www.ems1.com/fatal-incidents...MB0r9yfmiVJVs/

A Minneapolis Fire Department (MFD) report states that George Floyd was unresponsive and had no pulse when its crew responded to assist EMS in transporting him after his arrest.

He was dead on the scene.

Additional coverage confirming that Floyd was without a pulse (dead) on the scene upon arrival by the EMT's - https://www.startribune.com/first-re...ead/570806682/

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Care to produce the autopsy?

I linked to it already, CNN reported on the findings.

[Kasierith]

In all reality, an autopsy isn't going to reveal exactly when someone died.

If you watch the video, you can clearly see he is unresponsive, and does not appear to be breathing at all for a few minutes on the video.

That's fine, but at this point in time I have one autopsy that is complete, and another autopsy that has made a claim but has not been completed (or at least not been made readily publicly available). So until that time comes, the information available is only coming from one side... that he died due to a culmination of factors directly precipitated by the actions of the officer.

If the independent inquiry wishes to contest these with a different autopsy they need to make the autopsy publicly available. The county responded to claims that they were covering it up by releasing the autopsy on June 5th.

[KaPe]

https://twitter.com/DaveGreber4/stat...77512320819203

Welp, I guess there aren't any good cops in Buffalo after all.

Imagine defending officers who, on camera, almost fucking murdered a man for trying to give them a helmet back and stopped one of their fellow officers from checking on the man as he lay bleeding from his fucking skull.

A show of solidarity for two cops that could have very well killed an innocent person if he didn't receive medical attention. This feels like bunch of high school kids throwing a tantrum rather than supoposedly trained officers of law reacting to a serious situation.

What's baffling is how blatant this is. They aren't even pretending that this was some "bad apples" or a couple officers overreacting. Nope, they are in full support of excessive violence against unarmed citizen. Apparently someone getting punished for breaking their own rules is such a shocking event that they cannot stand it. Boy, are they in for a harsh reality check if they ever leave the police for good and learn that ordinary people are actually held responsible for their actions.

[Machismo]

That's fine, but at this point in time I have one autopsy that is complete, and another autopsy that has made a claim but has not been completed (or at least not been made readily publicly available). So until that time comes, the information available is only coming from one side... that he died due to a culmination of factors directly precipitated by the actions of the officer.

If the independent inquiry wishes to contest these with a different autopsy they need to make the autopsy publicly available. The county responded to claims that they were covering it up by releasing the autopsy on June 5th.

But, the autopsy will likely not say exactly when he dies, we have video evidence for that.

[Endus]

That's fine, but at this point in time I have one autopsy that is complete, and another autopsy that has made a claim but has not been completed (or at least not been made readily publicly available). So until that time comes, the information available is only coming from one side... that he died due to a culmination of factors directly precipitated by the actions of the officer.

Again; would Floyd have died that day if the police never interfered with him?

If the answer is "no", then the officers killed him. Other factors of poor health do not matter. If you stab me in the arm and I bleed out before paramedics arrive because I'm a hemophiliac and you cut an artery, you've murdered me. The existence of my underlying condition in no way ameliorates that.

Talking about Floyd's health is just an attempt to act as an apologist for 4 murderers. If that's not your goal, stop bring up irrelevant stuff and suggesting they weren't fully responsible for his death.

[Keosen]

I know the best way. Firing then and charging them when they commit crimes.

Then we can work on eliminating qualified immunity if we need to for the ones that remain.

We literally having videos and pictures of police brutality on daily basis.
Picture of a dude in a wheelchair got shot in the face, a video where they push an elderly man who fell and bled from ears, pepper spraying bypassers.

Just imagine what cops do when the camera is not there or when the cameras and smartphones weren't available, just imaging it is terrifying.
How many people who "died by accident" or "attacked the police" were cold blooded murdered.

If the riots stop now it will just be the start of a countdown for the next Floyd.

[Thekri]

A show of solidarity for two cops that could have very well killed an innocent person if he didn't receive medical attention. This feels like bunch of high school kids throwing a tantrum rather than supoposedly trained officers of law reacting to a serious situation.

What's baffling is how blatant this is. They aren't even pretending that this was some "bad apples" or a couple officers overreacting. Nope, they are in full support of excessive violence against unarmed citizen. Apparently someone getting punished for breaking their own rules is such a shocking event that they cannot stand it. Boy, are they in for a harsh reality check if they ever leave the police for good and learn that ordinary people are actually held responsible for their actions.

Seems like a good idea to me. I fully support these officers resigning in protest. Maybe they can all go get jobs that don't involve beating the crap out of innocent people, and the City of Buffalo can hire some cops that aren't thugs. Everyone wins!