Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[kail]

Most apparently have, given how difficult it is to find them nowadays. Which is one reason why I support rebuilding police departments from the ground up to address structural and institutional problems. Let the good cops be good cops without fearing for their careers or lives.

I want massive reforms but to state that "most have quit" seems presumptuous at best, unless there's a source. There are officers just doing their job, giving tickets to speeding cars and handling disorderly conduct. If you think otherwise, then you might as well not even consider dialing 911 when a crime is committed or a danger is present.

Police force needs reform, but we still need officers and placing them all under an abusive and racist conglomerate is also presumptuous.

[Edge-]

I want massive reforms but to state that "most have quit" seems presumptuous at best, unless there's a source.

I mean, I could link you to multiple stories over the years of cops being fired/retaliated against for being "good cops" and reporting shit. I could point to, for example, Buffalo or Atlanta where cops stood in solidarity with their colleague who almost murdered a man or who called out sick to protest a charge against a colleague. I could also point to the overweight bike cop that had a crowd cheering him on as he left the courthouse after he was filmed assaulting a peaceful protester. I could point to the police union in FL that posted about how they'd love to hire some of the Buffalo PD folks if they didn't want to work up there.

There are officers just doing their job, giving tickets to speeding cars and handling disorderly conduct. If you think otherwise, then you might as well not even consider dialing 911 when a crime is committed or a danger is present.

There are plenty that do! And many turn a blind eye to the behavior of their colleagues, which makes them bad cops as well.

Police force needs reform, but we still need officers and placing them all under an abusive and racist conglomerate is also presumptuous.

Maybe police unions and departments writ-large shouldn't be as aggressively fighting against reforms, as they have been for decades?

[kail]

I mean, I could link you to multiple stories over the years of cops being fired/retaliated against for being "good cops" and reporting shit. I could point to, for example, Buffalo or Atlanta where cops stood in solidarity with their colleague who almost murdered a man or who called out sick to protest a charge against a colleague. I could also point to the overweight bike cop that had a crowd cheering him on as he left the courthouse after he was filmed assaulting a peaceful protester. I could point to the police union in FL that posted about how they'd love to hire some of the Buffalo PD folks if they didn't want to work up there.

So no actual source.

There are plenty that do! And many turn a blind eye to the behavior of their colleagues, which makes them bad cops as well.

If there is nothing to report? An officer in one quite county is supposed to deal with others or he/she is a bad cop?

Maybe police unions and departments writ-large shouldn't be as aggressively fighting against reforms, as they have been for decades?

This I agree. The police unions are going beyond supporting their workforce. Granting immunity and leniency to the crimes they commit is disgusting. Not every department is the same though, different counties with different management hiring/firing different officers.

Ultimately when you assume that a person holding a badge is a POS, it sounds too similar to those making prejudice assumptions at someone because of their religion. Right wingers have joked at the "not all Muslim" during attacks in the past and love to post pictures, videos, text documents of them advocating violence against gays, infidels, and Jews. That doesn't make it right to assume most think that way.

[Mayhem]

You cite your belief. Not truth.
After all most here do trust their respective local police.

Do they happen to be white?

[Themius]

So no actual source.


If there is nothing to report? An officer in one quite county is supposed to deal with others or he/she is a bad cop?

This I agree. The police unions are going beyond supporting their workforce. Granting immunity and leniency to the crimes they commit is disgusting. Not every department is the same though, different counties with different management hiring/firing different officers.

Ultimately when you assume that a person holding a badge is a POS, it sounds too similar to those making prejudice assumptions at someone because of their religion. Right wingers have joked at the "not all Muslim" during attacks in the past and love to post pictures, videos, text documents of them advocating violence against gays, infidels, and Jews. That doesn't make it right to assume most think that way.

Sources are cited earlier in this thread on good cops who have been retaliated against.

What do you mean by "if there is nothing to report"??? turning a blind eye means there is something to report, they're just not reporting.


Not all nazis killed people... but they still wore the armband... why not assume they are a pos?

[Easo]

Actually, none of you provided sources to Kail about "good cops". There, of course, are none, as it is not exactly quantifiable thing, pretty much impossible to make statistics from.
But citing specific cases is just that, specific cases, not the overall proof, which he asked for.

About good cops...
For one, said good cop could literally not ever see wrongdoing by his collegues, unless he specifically seeks it out. It is not his direct duty to investigate collegues on the off chance that they might be doing something bad, unless that is what he was assigned to do.
For second, there is the phenomenon of protecting your collegues in, well, everywhere. This is absolutely not police specific. In fact, couple of other two are probably as infamous - health care and military. Doctor royally fucks up and someone dies, but the doctor will never get punished for it, for example. His collegues and the hospital will swoon to his defense, whether to hide their own fuckups, or because they think that their collegue could not have done wrong and is a victim of some kind of attack.
I am sure most of you have heard of such incidents.

TL;DR: workplace politics.

It is really easy to fall into prejudice. This is why I dislike slogans like "ACAB". It is factually untrue. Yet people love using it...
P.S.
You still can't reform USA's police without keeping majority of existing policeman employed (I hope I dont have to explain why?). I wonder what can be done ensure that this majority changes as needed in case of the reforms.

[Aurgjelme]

Its quite a frenzy over there right now. It even made it to headlines here in Norway that goons tore down a statue of a Norwegian born soldier who fought for the union against slavery. What a way to shoot yourself in the foot, bunch of ignorant idiots....

Lets be real...at this point its just mouthbreathers larping as anarchists.




https://wkow.com/2020/06/23/proteste...OtGYnMJO7iHLnE

[Yadryonych]

Lets be real...at this point its just mouthbreathers larping as anarchists.

What do you mean "At this point"? it's been like that since the very beginning. it's either mommy's little anarchist or rahowarriors against everything European

[Elegiac]

What do you mean "At this point"? it's been like that since the very beginning. it's either mommy's little anarchist or rahowarriors against everything European

It's fairly telling that you equate a movement against white supremacy with a movement against "everything European".

[Mayhem]

It's fairly telling that you equate a movement against white supremacy with a movement against "everything European".

Ignore the bot from Russia. He's certainly not talking for a majority of Europeans.

[kail]

Sources are cited earlier in this thread on good cops who have been retaliated against.

What do you mean by "if there is nothing to report"??? turning a blind eye means there is something to report, they're just not reporting.


Not all nazis killed people... but they still wore the armband... why not assume they are a pos?

Oh God. There are over 14 thousand cities in the U.S. Every one of those cities has evil police departments? Is that your claim? I understand that staying silent about a crime makes you liable as well and many precincts suffer from corruption and reprimand whistleblowers. I won't claim some extreme idea that all are accountable for each other.

Also, comparing police to nazi's is a quick way to destroy your own argument. I'd advise against it if you want to be taken seriously.

[Themius]

Oh God. There are over 14 thousand cities in the U.S. Every one of those cities has evil police departments? Is that your claim? I understand that staying silent about a crime makes you liable as well and many precincts suffer from corruption and reprimand whistleblowers. I won't claim some extreme idea that all are accountable for each other.

Also, comparing police to nazi's is a quick way to destroy your own argument. I'd advise against it if you want to be taken seriously.

Police originally in this country were created to catch slaves and return them to their owners... in the early 1900s police were the force used by racists to legislate racism literally in their own words... this was an issue up through to the 70s were police were used as a way to control black and brown people with politicians overtly claiming it over the years.. (cited earlier in this thread) they're more similar to nazis in their history than say... bobbies.

[kail]

You still can't reform USA's police without keeping majority of existing policeman employed (I hope I dont have to explain why?). I wonder what can be done ensure that this majority changes as needed in case of the reforms.

The idea of reallocating funds is a good course, they are supposed to respond to a cry for help, not turn areas into a police state (IMO). Downgrade the unnecessary equipment that some departments have access to, erase the immunity they have if they are within "police guidelines", hold them accountable if body cam footage of an incident is missing for any reason, etc.

Like a child, the police forces have broken our trust too many times and it's time for the parents to set more ground rules. I don't trust the departments to fix themselves and I'm sure that's the common opinion.

[Egomaniac]

Should all the good cops just quit?

What good cops?

The ones that aren't doing anything about the bad ones?

Those aren't good cops.

[Yadryonych]

It's fairly telling that you equate a movement against white supremacy with a movement against "everything European".

I should probably say europoid instead of European since I've been told race topic is okay in this thread

[kail]

Police originally in this country were created to catch slaves and return them to their owners... in the early 1900s police were the force used by racists to legislate racism literally in their own words... this was an issue up through to the 70s were police were used as a way to control black and brown people with politicians overtly claiming it over the years.. (cited earlier in this thread) they're more similar to nazis in their history than say... bobbies.

OK. What do police in the past have to do with the current body? You think every recruit wanted to be an officer to beat on minorities? I wonder if you perceive every black officer as an Uncle Tom.

[Themius]

OK. What do police in the past have to do with the current body? You think every recruit wanted to be an officer to beat on minorities? I wonder if you perceive every black officer as an Uncle Tom.

Kail, i literally said through to the 70s, which is less than 50 years ago.

Note that the fbi and dhs have said there is a major problem with KKK and white nationalist within police forces which has gotten worse after 2016 and is a potential major threat to civil rights in this country.

People may "want" to be cops for noble reasons, some of them may want that. what actually happens in the end is different. What the departments do matters you know.

It is folly to ignore history.

[Zaktar]

OK. What do police in the past have to do with the current body? You think every recruit wanted to be an officer to beat on minorities? I wonder if you perceive every black officer as an Uncle Tom.

Their policies are built on a foundation of racism. The tribal knowledge which any job specialty has is infected by it. I'm sure very few people start out with that desire but there is a reason why so many end up doing it and it has a lot to do with the history of policing in this country.

[kail]

What good cops?

The ones that aren't doing anything about the bad ones?

Those aren't good cops.

No, silent cops are not good and those fired for trying to speak up are brave beings. You have thousands on thousands of police departments with almost a million bodies. If you want to claim they are all abusive, racist, or silent about the other two, then by my guest and provide a source outside of some twitter clips.

[eschatological]

OK. What do police in the past have to do with the current body? You think every recruit wanted to be an officer to beat on minorities? I wonder if you perceive every black officer as an Uncle Tom.

I don't know any good cop (and I've worked in criminal law for more than a decade now) who didn't quit from emotional burn out pretty quickly, went back to school to be able to qualify for bigger agencies, or tried to climb the ladder as quick as possible to federal law enforcement, where this kind of behavior is far less likely. Most people I know who go into law enforcement who want to "make their community better" are trying like hell to get out of local PD as quick as possible.

Meanwhile, all the bullies I know from high school who never went to college are now local PD.

I do think local PD, only requiring a high school education, is a magnet for bad personalities and shitty people. It offers much higher pay than the average high school grad with insane benefits, you get to carry a gun, and essentially continue being a bully.