Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Endus]

I agree that you need to prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that "a reasonable person" believed that they had cause to shoot. I'm mostly commenting on the standard for what "a reasonable person" is. I'm saying that if 50% of people would have believed it, that sounds like it meets the "reasonable person" standard "beyond a reasonable doubt".

https://definitions.uslegal.com/r/reasonable-belief/

You're trying to roll an appeal to popularity fallacy into the reasonable belief standard.

If 51% of the population believe an unreasonable thing, it just means 51% of the population is unreasonable, not that their beliefs automagically become reasonable by dint of popularity.

[eschatological]

People always dismiss the idea that being detained by police is VERY stressful, even if you're completely innocent. It shouldn't be on the detainee to maintain order during such a detainment, it should be on the cops. They should be the one's de-escalating when things are escalated by a detainee, under the assumption that the detainee is stressed, and not necessarily acting criminally.

And we see countless examples of white people acting the fool during stops/detainments, and they are handled in a much more civil manner than when black people do. And statistics back this up.

[Draco-Onis]

People always dismiss the idea that being detained by police is VERY stressful, even if you're completely innocent. It shouldn't be on the detainee to maintain order during such a detainment, it should be on the cops. They should be the one's de-escalating when things are escalated by a detainee, under the assumption that the detainee is stressed, and not necessarily acting criminally.

And we see countless examples of white people acting the fool during stops/detainments, and they are handled in a much more civil manner than when black people do. And statistics back this up.

How many protests have we seen of white people against masks with guns in the face of officers. It's clear that there are different sets of rules.

[Themius]

So you're arguing that body cams don't matter because police won't be punished? What evidence do you have for that argument? Which case?

The past three months with super high media coverage and no change in behavior?

[Endus]

People always dismiss the idea that being detained by police is VERY stressful, even if you're completely innocent. It shouldn't be on the detainee to maintain order during such a detainment, it should be on the cops. They should be the one's de-escalating when things are escalated by a detainee, under the assumption that the detainee is stressed, and not necessarily acting criminally.

And we see countless examples of white people acting the fool during stops/detainments, and they are handled in a much more civil manner than when black people do. And statistics back this up.

I'll repeat my past experience; I was detained by the police on suspicion of a chain of B&E burglaries, along with my friend. We were questioned in the backs of two patrol cars. By the end of the encounter, it became clear that;
1> We were innocent (I'd driven my friend to visit his girlfriend, because I was 16 and he was 15, so I could drive).
2> The person who'd accused us had lied to the cops, on purpose (his girlfriend's dad, who didn't want her dating).
3> That we ran because he (her dad) started chasing us, and she told us to run.

The cops offered to let us press charges against her dad, but we declined.

The whole encounter was incredibly stressful. However;
A> Neither of us were cuffed, or even handled beyond a hand on our shoulders to assist us into the back seat of the patrol car
B> Neither officer ever drew their weapons.
C> Both me and my buddy were a couple white kids.

This was in Canada, admittedly, but in Cole Harbour NS, a place with such strong racism issues it was national news back around that era; https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...cism-1.4976071
Those brawls were just a couple years before our being detained.

I seriously doubt my experience would've been the same if my and my buddy had been black.

[Bodakane]

On arguing: just sharing my opinion. In my opinion, imprecise liberal arguments help Trump.

Here's another example: the article you linked includes 10 stats that are all about what people perceive. For example, the basis for your statement appears to be this quote:

"Black adults are about five times as likely as whites to say they’ve been unfairly stopped by police because of their race or ethnicity (44% vs. 9%)"

That's not the same thing as saying, "Black people are targeted by police more than they target white people, by about 5 times", which is what you said. To me that sounds like the telephone game, where every person who repeats a story changes it slightly.

I agree that you're right, that black people are treated as more suspicious. I'm just trying to show you how a skeptic views this imprecision, and how you're a link in the chain that turns a survey into an easily refuted "fact" for those who are hard to convince. Here's what a survey result might have said in the old south in 1850:

"White people say that 90% of black men will rape a white woman if given the chance".

That's obviously wrong. A lot of people believing something doesn't mean it's right, and the fact that a lot of people believe it shouldn't be enough to convince everyone. Use real data.

For your argument to make sense, that means 2 things:

1. There's a magic third party that is involved in all police stops that is a completely unbiased arbiter fo right and wrong and they are willfully being silenced.
2. Black people are predisposed to commit 5 times as many crimes/violations as white people then 5 times as likely to lie about it.

[wunksta]

Use real data.

Sure, there's plenty of data such as frequency of traffic stops based on race, incarceration rates and lengths of sentences, differences in plea bargains, discrepancies in jury service, and many other facts and figures that show a clear bias in our justice system that has been disproportionately affecting people of color.

[Draco-Onis]

Ok. What's your evidence for no change in behavior? I've heard the argument that this has always been happening but the media has only recently started paying attention to it, an alternate explanation for why we're hearing about more shootings. I don't know which explanation is right, but you're claiming no change in behavior. Do you have evidence for that?

Because bodycam footage is hard to get out there's a wall of legal protections so it can take a long time for the footage to get unless there is heavy public pressure like in Ffloyd's case. Even if you do get past the wall police can say there were "malfunctions" or in cases they simply turn it off. One particular laughable case was when the cops turned the camera off but they didn't do it right and the footage showed them planting evidence.

There is a need for more transparency for policing and we need to get rid of qualified immunity. They have nothing to fear even if damming video comes out as officers are rarely convicted of criminal behavior, they get a slap on the wrist and a fat pension.

[Themius]

Ok. What's your evidence for no change in behavior? I've heard the argument that this has always been happening but the media has only recently started paying attention to it, an alternate explanation for why we're hearing about more shootings. I don't know which explanation is right, but you're claiming no change in behavior. Do you have evidence for that?

the behaviour in question is "police brutality"

What we have seen are police shooting protesters in the back, kicking them in the head, pushing elderly men down until they bleed and police doing nothing. in the case of the elderly man it took two national guards (aka not police) to do anything. We have seen police protest because two people were being held accountable...

We have seen police bash media with shields we have seen them while being filmed, stab water bottles, tear gas medic stations while handing out water to white terrorist groups.

We have seen officers choke people and then when told that they couldn't breath say "I don't care" after the death of George Floyd

You can't be serious.

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Because bodycam footage is hard to get out there's a wall of legal protections so it can take a long time for the footage to get unless there is heavy public pressure like in Ffloyd's case. Even if you do get past the wall police can say there were "malfunctions" or in cases they simply turn it off. One particular laughable case was when the cops turned the camera off but they didn't do it right and the footage showed them planting evidence.

There is a need for more transparency for policing and we need to get rid of qualified immunity. They have nothing to fear even if damming video comes out as officers are rarely convicted of criminal behavior, they get a slap on the wrist and a fat pension.

We need to get rid of police period...

Like say... 80% of them. And then shift the jobs onto people who can do them.

4% or so of police is actually dealing with violence so why in the world do we need sooo many police? Most police respond to domestic non-criminal civil issues, and traffic...

[wunksta]

There are 600,000 police officers in the US. I'm sure some of them are criminals. I'm sure some of them are racist. In 20 years, there will still be criminals in the police force, and there will still be racists. That's just a reasonable expectation for a group that big. It's important to root the out as much as possible, but you're not going to get them all.

When you say that there's no change in behavior, are you saying that you expect zero incidents in which police behave inappropriately? I interpreted you saying that to mean that incidents are just as frequent now as they were a year ago. That's a hard statement to prove because 600k police officers generate a huge amount of incidents and it's hard to categorize them. By listing details of 10 or so of the worst incidents that have happened this year, you haven't really shown me that. The 10 worst incidents are always going to be pretty bad.

The problem is that there is large amounts of systemic racism in place so that even if there are a lot of non-racist cops with good intentions, they can get swept up in enforcing systemic racist policies or disproportionately discriminate against people of color even involuntarily or unconsciously.

Not to mention the points about 'good police' remaining quiet in the face of bad police or how police unions have covered up and protected bad police. This points to a much larger problem than just a few bad police that have an itchy trigger finger.

[wunksta]

Ok. So what's the solution? Is there one? It's a hard problem.

There won't be a single solution, it will require massive efforts in rebalancing our criminal justice system in order to ensure that everyone is treated equally. In my opinion, a good step would be decriminalizing illicit drugs. Another step would be to eliminate mandatory minimum sentencing and three strikes laws (at least for non-violent crime).

[Themius]

Ok. So what's the solution? Is there one? It's a hard problem. Obviously, it's coming down hard on obvious cases like Floyd. That's happening. What else?

It's not really a hard problem at all... it is a very easy problem.

What seems hard is for people to you know.. not be racist... and to believe racism is a thing...

[Bodakane]

Ok. So what's the solution? Is there one? It's a hard problem. Obviously, it's coming down hard on obvious cases like Floyd. That's happening. What else?

1. Demilitarize the police by defunding them.
2. Use the savings on social workers to handle certain problems and community centers with actual job training.
3. Come down hard on the "thin blue line" bullshit.
4. Let each state have one statewide police force and that is it. Sheriffs can still be elected for each county but they are just the LEO rep for that county to the state run cops.
5. Stop denying there's systemic racism rampant in the system.

These for a start.

[Elegiac]

Ok. So what's the solution? Is there one? It's a hard problem. Obviously, it's coming down hard on obvious cases like Floyd. That's happening. What else?

Oh look it’s the same sort of “wicked problem” fallacy we see being used by climate change denialists. How very droll.

[SirBeef]

1. Demilitarize the police by defunding them.
2. Use the savings on social workers to handle certain problems and community centers with actual job training.
3. Come down hard on the "thin blue line" bullshit.
4. Let each state have one statewide police force and that is it. Sheriffs can still be elected for each county but they are just the LEO rep for that county to the state run cops.
5. Stop denying there's systemic racism rampant in the system.

These for a start.

I would add qualified immunity. It's intent was to shield them from civil liabilities not criminal. I'm fine with civil protections, but if they execute somone they need to be held accountable like anyone else.

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It's not really a hard problem at all... it is a very easy problem.

What seems hard is for people to you know.. not be racist... and to believe racism is a thing...

Apparently being a bigot is just too easy and justifiable. I got dogpile by a bunch if bigots in the WoW forum because they feel it's never not OK to call a woman a bitch and the justifications have gone on for 30 pages.

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Unhelpful inflammatory rhetoric ("crazy racist fucks", "murderously racist psychopaths"), aside, this is the core of the argument. How good do we expect the police to be at their jobs? Assuming the worst, let's say Blake said, "I'm gonna go get my knife" and went to the car. Then I agree that the right approach for the officer in retrospect is to back away and wait to see if more force is required. Knife versus gun at a distance, knife loses. The cop did not handle the situation correctly.

But this is where it becomes opinion. If that is what happened, I don't think his actions are that outrageous. This all happened very quickly. Instead of backing away the cop appeared to try to hold the door closed but then realized he couldn't because he was holding the gun. At that point he probably should have backed away again, but he didn't (another split second decision maybe .5 seconds after the previous one to go for the door). Hell, he might have been worried that if he back away Blake would have run around the car and attacked a bystander (I still don't know much about why the cops were actually there and trying to arrest him) so he was staying close. Then as Blake is getting into the car, he bends down pretty low as if going for something in the car, towards where we know the knife was. Again, officer should have backed up, but that would have required some extraordinarily quick thinking. Maybe he should have waited another second to make sure it was the knife, but god who wants that job if it means waiting until the absolute last second to defend yourself or else you're a murderer?

You and I aren't going to agree. I view my own approach as tending to give the police the benefit of the doubt and see if there might have been a sequence of events that explains the action. I don't expect police to be as competent as you do, and I worry about the implications of raising standards to the level you advocate.

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Ok. What's your evidence for no change in behavior? I've heard the argument that this has always been happening but the media has only recently started paying attention to it, an alternate explanation for why we're hearing about more shootings. I don't know which explanation is right, but you're claiming no change in behavior. Do you have evidence for that?

Only recently? Man, I'm 55 and every 10 years there seems to be some big police brutality scandal. You seem not to keen on history, or the fact that we live in a every second news cycle with people able to live stream events and have it make the news cycle immediately as opposed to taking hours a few years ago, days, about 15-20 years ago, and weeks 30+years ago.

[NED funded]

Dunno if this has been posted but the protesters really did a number on Kenosha

https://mobile.twitter.com/joshglanc...34436792197120

[Bodakane]

I would add qualified immunity. It's intent was to shield them from civil liabilities not criminal. I'm fine with civil protections, but if they execute somone they need to be held accountable like anyone else.

100000000000% agree

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Dunno if this has been posted but the protesters really did a number on Kenosha

https://mobile.twitter.com/joshglanc...34436792197120

The justice and political systems have made it so no other action is feasible.

Maybe people should have paid attention when the form of protest was kneeling.

[wunksta]

Only recently? Man, I'm 55 and every 10 years there seems to be some big police brutality scandal. You seem not to keen on history, or the fact that we live in a every second news cycle with people able to live stream events and have it make the news cycle immediately as opposed to taking hours a few years ago, days, about 15-20 years ago, and weeks 30+years ago.

Social media, live streaming and everyone having mobile phones definitely helped showed how common place it is. Most of this stuff probably wouldn't have made national news years ago without everyone spreading it.

[JohnBrown1917]

Social media, live streaming and everyone having mobile phones definitely helped showed how common place it is. Most of this stuff probably wouldn't have made national news years ago without everyone spreading it.

Makes me wonder what would have happend if all that shit with John Balcerzak happend during the age of social media.

[Thee ANCOM]

"if you just cooperate with the police they won't hurt you...."