Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Draco-Onis]

There are examples like Chinese wealthy owners that had everything confiscated in revolution with their families being persecuted... their descendants are still doing better then average today despite obvious discrimination against them.

Were their outcomes hurt by losing that wealth? Certainly. But not everything is decided by generational wealth; and claiming it to be sole reason (or even main reason) for someone's continued plight is terribly reductive.

Why are you making statements and arguments I didn't? The word systematic means it is a system or a number of things.

[Shalcker]

Why are you making statements and arguments I didn't? The word systematic means it is a system or a number of things.

What do those subjected to this system of oppression do themselves though?

When looking at system with humans that have agency you need to see them as active participants, not as passive recipients of whatever systemic oppression is directed their way. There should be ways for them to escape oppressive traps and carve their own niches - which can be done in parallel to fighting systems of oppression that keep them down.

Plenty of groups got more prosperous while still being oppressed and discriminated against through the history.

[Draco-Onis]

What do those subjected to this system of oppression do themselves though?

When looking at system with humans that have agency you need to see them as active participants, not as passive recipients of whatever systemic oppression is directed their way. There should be ways for them to escape oppressive traps and carve their own niches - which can be done in parallel to fighting systems of oppression that keep them down.

Plenty of groups got more prosperous while still being oppressed and discriminated against through the history.

Those groups have similar histories they became prosperous through centuries of fighting and changing the system. The people of color in this country didn't even have many basic rights until 5 decades ago. We are not centuries removed from this, your historical reference supports my arguments.

[Shalcker]

Those groups have similar histories they became prosperous through centuries of fighting and changing the system.

Most got prosperous by being in some way useful to the system despite persecution, not by fighting it; though they certainly often joined various uprisings and revolutions when opportunity presented itself.

The people of color in this country didn't even have many basic rights until 5 decades ago. We are not centuries removed from this, your historical reference supports my arguments.

There was Irish example in this thread; as far as i understand Irish do better nowadays too, and they are not any more "centuries removed" from it.

And neither were chinese wealthy (who still get jailed quite often in modern China).

[Draco-Onis]

Most got prosperous by being in some way useful to the system despite persecution, not by fighting it; though they certainly often joined various uprisings and revolutions when opportunity presented itself.

There was Irish example in this thread; as far as i understand Irish do better nowadays too, and they are not any more "centuries removed" from it.

And neither were chinese wealthy (who still get jailed quite often in modern China).

The wealthy Chinese did not face systematic racism after losing their wealth, the Irish? are you sure you want to use them? you keep pointing out examples that prove my point. I am sorry but this is laughable since all your examples are either saying I am right or people of color should be reacting more strongly to get faster results.

Edit: By god man of all the examples you had to pick the Irish the people that got their rights paid for by centuries of rivers of blood.

[Shalcker]

The wealthy Chinese did not face systematic racism after losing their wealth, the Irish? are you sure you want to use them? you keep pointing out examples that prove my point. I am sorry but this is laughable since all your examples are either saying I am right or people of color should be reacting more strongly to get faster results.

Wealthy Chinese certainly faced systematic persecution even after losing their wealth, it wasn't one-time thing, so you would need stronger argument.

Edit: By god man of all the examples you had to pick the Irish the people that got their rights paid for by centuries of rivers of blood.

Rivers of blood in the US? Because they weren't doing great in US either. Then they got better.

Black wins against apartheid in South Africa, for example, certainly didn't seem to help US blacks in the same way.

[Draco-Onis]

Wealthy Chinese certainly faced systematic persecution even after losing their wealth, it wasn't one-time thing, so you would need stronger argument.

ROFLMAO man you just keep giving those jokes, of course people could totally tell that their fellow Chinese people in China were wealthy just like your skin color in the US.

Rivers of blood in the US? Because they weren't doing great in US either. Then they got better.

Black wins against apartheid in South Africa, for example, certainly didn't seem to help US blacks in the same way.

Nice try I am obviously referring to the history of the Irish, you just keep digging that hole you made for yourself.

[Felya]

Nice try I am obviously referring to the history of the Irish, you just keep digging that hole you made for yourself.

Relevant and entertaining:

[Shalcker]

ROFLMAO man you just keep giving those jokes, of course people could totally tell that their fellow Chinese people in China were wealthy just like your skin color in the US.

I see that you have no idea how class-based persecution works.

Nice try I am obviously referring to the history of the Irish, you just keep digging that hole you made for yourself.

Well, do you have similar history to draw upon? Do you think you could sustain similar campaigns? What stopped you from doing it while Irish did it?

[Draco-Onis]

I see that you have no idea how class-based persecution works.

So you are saying class based persecution on top of racism would be a very bad thing, I am sure glad you keep making my case for me.

Well, do you have similar history to draw upon? Do you think you could sustain similar campaigns? What stopped you from doing it while Irish did it?

Gee I wonder what could have been different /s

[Felya]

What stopped you from doing it while Irish did it?

Cloak of invisibility...

[Draco-Onis]

Cloak of invisibility...

Wrong it was the precious always the precious.

[Bodakane]

Just to point out there could be other reasons to make the arrested rates different. What I would like to see is a breakdown on crime based on population location and police presence. AKA is there a correlation between city based arrests and suburb or rural based numbers? If we look at arrest rates and break them out to rural, suburb, and city, does each area have the same higher rates for 1 group over the other? If the economic ties to crime are true, then could there be anything to the location of the lower economic areas for the specific groups? Can this maybe have to do with the smaller areas served by higher numbers of law enforcement available to work on crimes? I have no idea how this would end up looking, but I personally haven't seen any kind of breakdown like that.

I am interested in knowing if the crime vs arrest rates are the same in all 3 different living areas or do they even out in say rural, but not suburb or city, or are they even in rural/suburb, but not city? Could the number of law enforcement available in a smaller area cause more arrests to be made in that area and what is the percentage of arrests vs crimes in each different type of living area.

I am honest, maybe someone did look into this kind of breakdown and I haven't seen it. Maybe the breakdown would show the same rates. I have no idea, but I would really be interested in seeing a report like that.

I will also point out your statement about predisposition is wrong. I believe economic situations have an impact on crime. That has nothing to do with skin race, but location of the people in those conditions might.

There is literally no reason for black people to arrested at higher rates unless its due to racism or thinking there's a fundamental reason exclusive to black people that makes them commit more crime. It is 100% one or the other.

You can talk about income, location or whatever, but that is all a direct effect due to the cause of systemic racism in every aspect of our american society. If you don;t think its that, then you would have to think there's a fundamental reason exclusive to black people that makes them consistently poor and live in economically depressed areas.

These aren't "gotchas". These aren't playing the race card or any shit you guys want to cry and scream about. These are very simple and obvious logic problems either you see that systemic racism is the problem or you're believe there's specific issues bailout their race that keeps them poor and committing crimes. There is literally no other rational, logical or factual explanation than those two.

You must choose.

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Genetics differences between groups aren't the only plausible hypothesis for differences in behavior - socialization, local environment, economic conditions, and so on are all likely to play roles. You're giving a pretty big win to white nationalists if you move to stating outright that the only way two groups could actually be behaving differently is genetics.

All the things you're pointing to are directly related to systemically racist oppression or you think there's a genetic reason for it.

I'm not giving them a win at all. You just don't understand that the issue is either systemic racism or you think there's a genetic issue due to their race....which is racist. There is no other possible reason.

[Felya]

Wrong it was the precious always the precious.

It’s why Ninja is brand name of blenders... they blend...

[Shalcker]

So you are saying class based persecution on top of racism would be a very bad thing, I am sure glad you keep making my case for me.

I'm saying that class-based persecution can be just as bad or worse then racism if you would bother to look into it. That doesn't stop some persecuted groups from still doing better then average.

Maybe you could learn from them.

Gee I wonder what could have been different /s

If you think every difference is critical and every situation is unique, then you have nothing to learn from history.

[Draco-Onis]

I'm saying that class-based persecution can be just as bad or worse then racism if you would bother to look into it. That doesn't stop some persecuted groups from still doing better then average.

Maybe you could learn from them.

If you think every difference is critical and every situation is unique, then you have nothing to learn from history.

You are right I am glad we once again agree learning from history America has a long way to go since we are behind the times. Most countries were well ahead of the US when it came to slavery and rights for people of color.

I am so surprised you are so supportive of BLM giving very helpful examples to prove my point too. I guess I was wrong about you

[Shalcker]

You are right I am glad we once again agree learning from history America has a long way to go since we are behind the times. Most countries were well ahead of the US when it came to slavery and rights for people of color.

Most countries also deal with it without affirmative action.

I am so surprised you are so supportive of BLM giving very helpful examples to prove my point too. I guess I was wrong about you

If you think they are helpful to your cause maybe you could explain what you see in them?

[Draco-Onis]

Most countries also deal with it without affirmative action.

I agree affirmative action is a band aid tool and we should copy other more broad initiatives other countries have used to combat racial disparity.

[Shalcker]

I agree affirmative action is a band aid tool and we should copy other more broad initiatives other countries have used to combat racial disparity.

Weren't many already tried though and failed to move a needle? There are decades of various efforts.

I feel that a lot of initiatives look like "same thing, let's just double down and it will work this time".

[Endus]

Weren't many already tried though and failed to move a needle? There are decades of various efforts.

I feel that a lot of initiatives look like "same thing, let's just double down and it will work this time".

Fundamentally, your argument boils down to "we tried one thing and it didn't fix the entire problem all by itself, so we should try nothing".

That's a horseshit nonsense argument.