Haiti is brewing again....

[Logwyn]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/04/ameri...sap-intl-latam

So sad. Hopefully this can settle down without intervention.

[Draco-Onis]

So sad. Hopefully this can settle down without intervention.

I think that ship sailed a centuries, Haiti is another shit show due to US meddling from the start of the nation (reparation for the slaves the French lost with our guns pointed at them).

[Muzjhath]

The fact that France demanded that Haiti paid reparations for lost property, including slaves.
Then set up the Haitian national bank to help them do so with loans from French banks.
And then when payment was slow had the US occupy Haiti and sold the dept to the US...

And France and the US Kept pillaging Haiti until 1947.

And France refuses to admit that the actions it took was wrong.

Yeah... who'dathought that Haiti would be a mess.
Ecological destruction happened because gathering and selling lumber was one of the few ways many poor people could keep subsistence up. Which caused so many downstream issues.

[PACOX]

And France and the US Kept pillaging Haiti until 1947.

Until 1947 is extremely generous.

[Muzjhath]

Until 1947 is extremely generous.

It was the technicality of that particular debt.
As yeah banking is still fucking them over.

[Draco-Onis]

The fact that France demanded that Haiti paid reparations for lost property, including slaves.
Then set up the Haitian national bank to help them do so with loans from French banks.
And then when payment was slow had the US occupy Haiti and sold the dept to the US...

And France and the US Kept pillaging Haiti until 1947.

And France refuses to admit that the actions it took was wrong.

Yeah... who'dathought that Haiti would be a mess.
Ecological destruction happened because gathering and selling lumber was one of the few ways many poor people could keep subsistence up. Which caused so many downstream issues.

Let's look at recent history, the past president who got assassinated was put in his position due to US threats, the current unelected president also supported by the US even though he is implicated in killing the previous one. The United States can't leave that country alone because of its location and pillaging never stopped.

[Corvus]

I want to know how the poor Kenyans were convinced to send police there to try and fix the problem.

[Wilian]

The fact that France demanded that Haiti paid reparations for lost property, including slaves.
Then set up the Haitian national bank to help them do so with loans from French banks.
And then when payment was slow had the US occupy Haiti and sold the dept to the US...

And France and the US Kept pillaging Haiti until 1947.

And France refuses to admit that the actions it took was wrong.

Yeah... who'dathought that Haiti would be a mess.
Ecological destruction happened because gathering and selling lumber was one of the few ways many poor people could keep subsistence up. Which caused so many downstream issues.

French demanded reparations from slaves til 2010s

[Elder Millennial]

France and the US absolutely fucked Haiti and nothing justifies that, "but" the reason why France could get away with this in the first place is rooted in a series of absolutely idiotic steps Haiti itself took after liberation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haitian_massacre

This incident HARD set the US against Haiti, and made the British, who previously supported Haitian independence largely wash their hands of Haiti.

They quickly followed that up with another catastrophic blunder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitia..._Santo_Domingo

They invaded and occupied Santo Domingo (today Dominican Republic), starting a hundred year long cycle of conflicts with their only neighbor and setting the Spanish against themselves too...another country that supported Haiti prior and armed and financed the rebellion.

After these two incidents the US started pushing towards the isolation of Haiti and France started demanding those debt payments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna in 1815 the British, Portuguese and Spanish all now antagonized decided to sit the Franco-American blockade and trade embargo out.

The hope for a stable Haiti died the moment Jaques Desalines sold Toussaint Louverture out the French.

[Flarelaine]

France and the US absolutely fucked Haiti and nothing justifies that, "but" the reason why France could get away with this in the first place is rooted in a series of absolutely idiotic steps Haiti itself took after liberation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haitian_massacre

This incident HARD set the US against Haiti, and made the British, who previously supported Haitian independence largely wash their hands of Haiti.

They quickly followed that up with another catastrophic blunder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitia..._Santo_Domingo

They invaded and occupied Santo Domingo (today Dominican Republic), starting a hundred year long cycle of conflicts with their only neighbor and setting the Spanish against themselves too...another country that supported Haiti prior and armed and financed the rebellion.

After these two incidents the US started pushing towards the isolation of Haiti and France started demanding those debt payments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna in 1815 the British, Portuguese and Spanish all now antagonized decided to sit the Franco-American blockade and trade embargo out.

The hope for a stable Haiti died the moment Jaques Desalines sold Toussaint Louverture out the French.

Notably, in the timeframe when Monroe declared his doctrine guarding the Americas from Europeans, the US was perfectly content to let France fuck with Haiti.

[Elder Millennial]

Notably, in the timeframe when Monroe declared his doctrine guarding the Americas from Europeans, the US was perfectly content to let France fuck with Haiti.

Oh the US wanting to fuck Haiti goes all the way back to John Adams who initially cut off aid to and trade to Haiti after the 1804 Massacre. Like it was an instant reaction.

The massacres fed deeeeeeply into the Southern slave states fears of a slave rebellion.

[Muzjhath]

Notably, in the timeframe when Monroe declared his doctrine guarding the Americas from Europeans, the US was perfectly content to let France fuck with Haiti.

There was an explicit exception in general concerning Haiti. They'd have let anyone fuck with them.

We owe it, therefore, to candor and to the amicable relations existing between the United States and those powers to declare that we should consider any attempt on their part to extend their system to any portion of this hemisphere as dangerous to our peace and safety. With the existing colonies or dependencies of any European power, we have not interfered and shall not interfere. But with the Governments who have declared their independence and maintained it, and whose independence we have, on great consideration and on just principles, acknowledged, we could not view any interposition for the purpose of oppressing them, or controlling in any other manner their destiny, by any European power in any other light than as the manifestation of an unfriendly disposition toward the United States.

Bolded. The US didn't recognize Haitian independence until 1862 close to 40 years later.

[Ihavewaffles]

The fact that France demanded that Haiti paid reparations for lost property, including slaves.
Then set up the Haitian national bank to help them do so with loans from French banks.
And then when payment was slow had the US occupy Haiti and sold the dept to the US...

And France and the US Kept pillaging Haiti until 1947.

And France refuses to admit that the actions it took was wrong.

Yeah... who'dathought that Haiti would be a mess.
Ecological destruction happened because gathering and selling lumber was one of the few ways many poor people could keep subsistence up. Which caused so many downstream issues.

that's a good sum up, hear it in this video, so insane its embarrassing to be human after hearing it...



- - - Updated - - -

France and the US absolutely fucked Haiti and nothing justifies that, "but" the reason why France could get away with this in the first place is rooted in a series of absolutely idiotic steps Haiti itself took after liberation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haitian_massacre

This incident HARD set the US against Haiti, and made the British, who previously supported Haitian independence largely wash their hands of Haiti.

Ah, yes, brutalize n enslave a people for a long time, then act surprise they act violently to get rid of the oppressors...

They quickly followed that up with another catastrophic blunder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitia..._Santo_Domingo

They invaded and occupied Santo Domingo (today Dominican Republic), starting a hundred year long cycle of conflicts with their only neighbor and setting the Spanish against themselves too...another country that supported Haiti prior and armed and financed the rebellion.

From what I heard they invaded so to be able to pay off their debt to France, so the real blame is really France.

[Doctor Amadeus]

The Truth is in my opinion the situation the way it is now could have been prevented had it not been for meddling "intervention" of any kind from the beginning. Helping people truly united who know what they need and what they will do to make life better for everyone, is totally different than people addicted to chaos.

Not meant to be a criticism of Haiti at all, but a criticism of intervention. Haiti has some things as people living there they need to sort for themselves.

[Draco-Onis]

The Truth is in my opinion the situation the way it is now could have been prevented had it not been for meddling "intervention" of any kind from the beginning. Helping people truly united who know what they need and what they will do to make life better for everyone, is totally different than people addicted to chaos.

Not meant to be a criticism of Haiti at all, but a criticism of intervention. Haiti has some things as people living there they need to sort for themselves.

The reason people are blaming intervention is because it is directly responsible for the current situation. The former president of Haiti that died was elected because the US pushed for him to be on the ballot even though he was disqualified. The current prime minister supported by the United States is implicated in the coup that killed the former president. The person being pushed right now as the next leader "Guy Philipe" has ties to the CIA and served in prison in the US, the first democratically elected president in Haiti taken down by an American coup because we didn't like his policies.

Let's also think critically the majority of Haitians live below the poverty line, How do you think so many people came to have American made weapons and ample supplies to use them? It ain't magic or coincidence that Haiti is being overwhelmed with American made guns.

[Elder Millennial]

t
Ah, yes, brutalize n enslave a people for a long time, then act surprise they act violently to get rid of the oppressors...

There were no oppressors. Most of those killed either never engaged in the slave trade, and were craftsman, doctors, tradesmen and merchants or worse, many have supported the initial slave uprising. Which is why Louverture originally asked them to stay.

The massacre was primarily driven by the ambitions of Jaques Dessalines. Desalines was a lieutenant of Toussaint Louverture, the political, ideological and military mastermind of the revolution itself. While Louverture was born a slave he was freed, received a formal education and worked for a while as a plantation manager. Beeing a freeman he was able to organize the slaves, the urban population both white and creole which allowed him to orchestrate the revolution. He also engaged, successfully in diplomacy with the US, UK, Spain and even France.

Dessalines was none of the above. He was a thug, but a militarily capable one. Which allowed him to rise to a position of prominence. Which he then used to sell Louverture out to the French, so he could take power. The massacre wasn't some sort of "killing the masters" thing, it was primarily a purge to eliminate the political and administrative base Louverture organized.

The massacre was carried out by a segment of troops directly loyal to Dessalines, and despite his best efforts to rile up the general population, they did not take part.

Presenting the incident as some sort of great revolutionary act is profoundly idiotic and incredibly offensive to the legacy of the Revolution itself and to the freed slave population.

From what I heard they invaded so to be able to pay off their debt to France, so the real blame is really France.

I'm wasting my time here, but here it goes.

The invasion was not caused by the French demand for reparations. What's worse, the reparations could have been avoided had Boyer (the dictator who ended up replacing Dessalines after a brief civil war) engaged in honest dealings with the Dominicans. The Dominican side of the island was nominally independent from Spain since 1821 and was in negotiations with joining Simon Bolivar's Gran Colombia, but Bolivar was largely uninterested in what he at the time seen as a largely poor island that was still politically contested by Spain. So the negotiations weren't going very well, putting the Dominicans into a limbo where they were also in negotiations with Boyer (Haiti) for unification. The Dominicans were not opposed to idea from the get go. When the French armada showed up to demand those reparations the Dominicans were also involved on the Haitian side.

Boyer went behind the back of the Dominicans, lied about the ongoing negotiations and made a backdoor deal with the French, which included the reparations, so he could focus on backstabbing the Dominicans, instead of using the Dominican ties to Gran Colombia and Spain to leverage the French. Once the deal with France was made, he did invade Santo Domingo, but not to pay the debts. The debts he took on so he could get rid of the French and focus on Santo Domingo.

The scale of the debts tho had tied into the land expropriations in Santo Domingo as fumage (forced labor) was reinstated with a plantation system. (They basically recreated slavery, without calling it slavery).

I know you love simplistic sloganeering bullshit, but none of this is as simple as you think it was. The history of Haiti is a long chain of tragedies of horrible mistakes and selfish assholes hijacking opportunities at the every possible turn.

[Lynarii]

For what it's worth, you're not wasting your time with that. Haitian history isn't something I know a lot about, and appreciate reading a more detailed accounting of some of the early events that led to where we are now. More context is useful, even when it doesn't immediately cause everyone to agree on a complex issue.

[Elder Millennial]

For what it's worth, you're not wasting your time with that. Haitian history isn't something I know a lot about, and appreciate reading a more detailed accounting of some of the early events that led to where we are now. More context is useful, even when it doesn't immediately cause everyone to agree on a complex issue.

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Jacobin.../dp/0679724672
https://www.amazon.com/History-Islan.../dp/0282704019

These two are incredibly good reads worth reading if you are interested in the topic. ESPECIALLY THE FIRST ONE.

[Draco-Onis]

I want to know how the poor Kenyans were convinced to send police there to try and fix the problem.

Oh that one is easy money.

US will contribute $300 million to Haiti’s multinational security mission