Forsaken Friends

[Maljinwo]

the blood elves had nothing to the point where Mists made their allegiance to the Horde being weird a plot point and set up a new reason for them to stay, without solving the thematic discrepancy that makes them fit much better as an Alliance race to this day.

They constantly refer to feeling betrayed by the alliance which is probably why they sticked with the Horde.
After the Purge of Dalaran soured any attempts to reconcile their ties with the Alliance they had nowhere else to go and they probably went like "Well, we might as well get comfortable here"

They do seem pretty commited afterwards

[Super Dickmann]

do it for them?

The Forsaken requiring the help of neutral organisations they've been stronger than in their entire time as a playable race to do something that, under current canon, they already have the support of the Alliance king and their zombie monarch in accomplishing.

@Maljinwo

They do mention being betrayed by the Alliance, but it was Velen who fixed the Sunwell and it was the orcs who did most of the damage to them pre-Scourge. They fit in the Horde in TBC because they were outsiders without help from the Alliance who'd resorted to means that the Alliance would never tolerate at the time and were a de facto police state. After that though, since they reverted to their high elf characterization and they didn't actually need the Horde since the Sunwell was back up, they were mostly tagging along until Mists gave them a new reason in the Purge.

[sam86]

the problem with Forsaken tbh since end of wrath they don't have any good identity, they now strive to be alive.. boring idea, literally every other race wants to stay alive + something, except them, they just want to stay undead, and some of them don't even want that anymore, a 'new' idea blizz introduced to shoot themselves in the foot, a race that can't reproduce, now with members who don't even want to exist -.-

[BB8]

Maybe in the future the vampires will join the horde. Then there is this connection between undead and elf.

[The Emperor]

Forsaken must stay who they are. Turning them into another flavour of good herbivores is the stupidest decision Blizzard can make. They are probably going to make that decision, anyway. Just remember how they changed Forsaken intro into some anduin-inspired-human-potential bullcrap. Thankfully, they were rebuked by angry fans. But is there always going to be angry fans, ready to defend their race, every time when Ion has a full frontal lobe seizure and unwittingly approves whatever his high hippie lorewriters have got in store?

[EbaumsTipster]

Forsaken must stay who they are. Turning them into another flavour of good herbivores is the stupidest decision Blizzard can make. They are probably going to make that decision, anyway. Just remember how they changed Forsaken intro into some anduin-inspired-human-potential bullcrap. Thankfully, they were rebuked by angry fans. But is there always going to be angry fans, ready to defend their race, every time when Ion has a full frontal lobe seizure and unwittingly approves whatever his high hippie lorewriters have got in store?

Again, if the new design philosophy is that every race is going to be neutral-leaning-heroic by default, Blizzard isn't going to stop that solely for ONE race "for the integrity of the story".

Cata/Legion/BFA Forsaken are free to hang around... as enemy mobs or NPCs. They're either neutral-leaning-heroic or they are deleted.

[Count Zero]

My character doesn't recognize the War Council and still considers Sylvanas leader of the Horde. Not that he'd admit it publicly.

[Super Dickmann]

Again, if the new design philosophy is that every race is going to be neutral-leaning-heroic by default, Blizzard isn't going to stop that solely for ONE race "for the integrity of the story".

Cata/Legion/BFA Forsaken are free to hang around... as enemy mobs or NPCs. They're either neutral-leaning-heroic or they are deleted.

That's unquestionably the intent. But what is gained from this? If every race has a functionally identical ethos and lacks conflict with one another, what role do they serve past the cosmetic? If a paladin of one race is identical to a paladin of other races, or if things like undeath, fel magic, void and so on, which should rightly be mistrusted and be the object of hostility are reduced to minor visual quirks, what is achieved? Is the Alliance where Varian praises how he has warlocks - who are powered by the pieces of soul they burn away to summon demons from hell more interesting than the kingdom where they had to hide in basements and weren't discussed in polite society? Are undead who are functionally identical to the living except uglier, motivated by the same things and having the same beliefs more interesting than ones who rightly have a discrepancy with those who haven't gone through trauma and death?

[EbaumsTipster]

That's unquestionably the intent. But what is gained from this? -thought out and understandable concerns here-

It makes simpleton dumdums happy. That's it. That's the market for modern entertainment and Blizzard wants to make Warcraft into more easy to consume "gentle" escapism.

Same reason you can't hit anyone's head with a shovel in XIV.

[Ardenaso]

they were mostly tagging along until Mists gave them a new reason in the Purge.

gotta love how the HumanPotentialTM cockblocks a potential HumanPotentialTM

[Super Dickmann]

It makes simpleton dumdums happy. That's it. That's the market for modern entertainment and Blizzard wants to make Warcraft into more easy to consume "gentle" escapism.

Same reason you can't hit anyone's head with a shovel in XIV.

I think it's mostly just writer soapboxing. If it was done for commercial purposes they'd also have axed faction restrictions. Keeping all the same systems in place but gutting the in-story reasoning accomplishes absolutely fuck all.

Then again, so does moralizing when multiple classes are based around doing the same, though we're not supposed to think about this too hard. Or at all.

@Ardenaso

Such is the duality of man.

[Ardenaso]

The Forsaken requiring the help of neutral organisations they've been stronger than in their entire time as a playable race to do something that

I mean, they are their actual people. If the High Elves are returning to their Blood Elf kin and are reconciling, why not with the Forsaken and Argents? The Forsaken also deserve their share in Tyr's Hand and all of Eastweald

[matrix123mko]

The Sunwell will be their new friend. May the Light embrace you! Long live God Emperor Anduin!

[Super Dickmann]

I mean, they are their actual people. If the High Elves are returning to their Blood Elf kin and are reconciling, why not with the Forsaken and Argents? The Forsaken also deserve their share in Tyr's Hand and all of Eastweald

The Argents have night elves, orcs, dwarves, gnomes etc. etc. The Lordaeronian refugees in Stormwind are more representative than the Argents. And at least the Brotherhood of Light should be opposed to them in principle.

[matrix123mko]

My character doesn't recognize the War Council and still considers Sylvanas leader of the Horde. Not that he'd admit it publicly.

Amen, brother.

[EbaumsTipster]

I think it's mostly just writer soapboxing. If it was done for commercial purposes they'd also have axed faction restrictions. Keeping all the same systems in place but gutting the in-story reasoning accomplishes absolutely fuck all.

Then again, so does moralizing when multiple classes are based around doing the same, though we're not supposed to think about this too hard. Or at all.

@Ardenaso

Such is the duality of man.

I don't think it's soapboxing when there's definite love and care (ironically, and I'm willing to defend this idea) put into the Loyalist stuff. While they for sure didn't expect players to want to be as bad as they did, when they DID introduce the loyalist stuff it's actually written like someone gives a shit about you working with Sylvanas. No reward sucks but hell they absolutely could've ended it with her trying to kill you/Nathanos taking the shot and being your best buddy or something ridiculously soap opera like that.

Is it lower effort? Absolutely. But if they didn't care it wouldn't exist.

But no, the ending for that questline is relatively mature. And you can tell they had a great time letting you hogtie Eitrigg around, and the Sylvanas!Style warfront armors are really nice (as is the warfront arguably). So I doubt they were actually trying to make a LOVE WINS!!!!! political statement and more felt their hands were tied by the market.

Factions feels like they will always stick around even if they let factions team up. It's a brand thing, not an ideology/symbolism thing.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and the only reason faction coop isn't in Shadowlands is because the devs are fucking lazy. Unless they announce it on the 9th: they DID say they were experimenting with it in January. They've hinted that "break the cycle" would actually be followed up later.

[Ardenaso]

The Argents have night elves, orcs, dwarves, gnomes etc. etc. The Lordaeronian refugees in Stormwind are more representative than the Argents. And at least the Brotherhood of Light should be opposed to them in principle.

I'm sure the non-humans are actually minority. The Argent proper is still the Lordaeronians who broke away from the Scarlets.

Also if I'm not mistaken the Lordaeronian refugees in Stormwind returned back to Hearthglen

- - - Updated - - -

The Brotherhood is also in good terms with the Horde if I'm not mistaken - Eligor and Korfax seems to trust Eitrigg and vice versa

[Saltysquidoon]

That's unquestionably the intent. But what is gained from this? If every race has a functionally identical ethos and lacks conflict with one another, what role do they serve past the cosmetic?

I imagine that's the plan.

Metzan's noble savage boner is gone, the devs who wanted to play as "badass" monsters in the forsaken are gone, the metal band shirt-wearing grognards who like the old orc models are gone. All we have now are stories driven by engagement and metrics.
If PR says most players want to be generic good guys who come in vaguely different shapes and colours that's what we'll get.

[EbaumsTipster]

I imagine that's the plan.

Metzan's noble savage boner is gone, the devs who wanted to play as "badass" monsters in the forsaken are gone, the metal band shirt-wearing grognards who like the old orc models are gone. All we have now are stories driven by engagement and metrics.
If PR says most players want to be generic good guys who come in vaguely different shapes and colours that's what we'll get.

And go look at modern social media and see why any company might be chicken shit about "evil" lurking in their game.

[Maljinwo]

After that though, since they reverted to their high elf characterization and they didn't actually need the Horde since the Sunwell was back up, they were mostly tagging along until Mists gave them a new reason in the Purge.

Oh, totally. I just threw in my opinion on why they stayed Horde-Aligned (besides, obviously, game mechanics)