Sylvanas Is Evil, Just Admit It

[shade3891]

So even if her actions seem evil to everyone else (for now), it doesn't make her evil without knowing her true intent.
I don't get the feeling she is toying with lives/souls for fun... she is not that far gone is she?

A spider eats as many flies as it needs to survive. It doesn't make the spider evil. Even if Sylvanas does only care about her self it doesnt make her evil. Consuming lives/souls of others to ensure her own, imo she is just acting like that spider.

Also it might seem so at first to others but Sylvanas doesn't only care about her own survival and freedom. If that was really the case why would she yell that line "I will set us all free!" (in the reckoning trailer).

I think we are missing a bigger picture and with it her intent behind her actions. It might have something to do with the Light and Void being afraid or weak vs. the cosmic power of death and Sylvanas is collecting it with all her power.

[ParanoiD84]

She willl be put down soon enough.

[Elim Garak]

Plenty? Maybe a few dozen.

Did you go there and counted everyone? Do you think there were many at the burnt tree? A few dozen maybe?

I take it you have no idea about the political, economic or geographic situation of Japan.

I take it you think it's important to go into those details here? It's not. Night Elves were quite intimidated by the burning of one of their trees. But unlike Japan - they didn't surrender. They crave MORE.

Good and evil are subjective. There is no objective way of establishing it, therefore your demand is made in bad faith.

That's like my entire point. When people say Sylvanas is evil - it's just their subjective opinion.

No. It's been stated the engine of Death broke in Legion, without any mention of a previous breaking of the engine. Thus Sylvanas going to Hell was not a mistake.

You can repeat it for as many times as you want - it doesn't make it evidence of Sylvanas being evil because we have established that innocent people can be sent to the Maw. You have no proof that it requires a broken machine, you have no proof that machine has not being broken before and you have no proof that it wasn't tinkered with for this one person. You have nothing which is not proof of absence.

Use != manipulation. Some machines are specifically designed to not be able to do anything but their intended purpose.

Use == manipulation, you manipulate the machine to use it - for an intended or unintended purpose. Semantically speaking, since you brought it up.

But go ahead - name such a machine and I will tell you what you can do with it besides its intended purpose.

[Raisei]

She willl be put down soon enough.

Dear N'zoth I hope so... I am gettign so sick of the Sylvanas apologists. They will twist every fact around until in their personal minds things make some kind of sense that let's them claim that indeed Sylvanas had a very good reason to commit genocide and be a poisonous bitch for the last decade, then they declare their headcannon to be 100% fact, despite all tries of the writers and of the friggin character herself to make it clear what is happening.

This is exactly how I imagine a real-life religious cult working, truth and facts are simply denied in favour of a myth spun out of the desperate attempt to defend the cult leaders intentions (to oneself and everyone else).

As @Varodoc said, there are grown-up people here literally defending mass murder and genocide. It's unbelievable what people will say when they can be sure to have anonymity.

[Varodoc]

Did you go there and counted everyone? Do you think there were many at the burnt tree? A few dozen maybe?


I take it you think it's important to go into those details here? It's not. Night Elves were quite intimidated by the burning of one of their trees. But unlike Japan - they didn't surrender. They crave MORE.


That's like my entire point. When people say Sylvanas is evil - it's just their subjective opinion.

You can repeat it for as many times as you want - it doesn't make it evidence of Sylvanas being evil because we have established that innocent people can be sent to the Maw. You have no proof that it requires a broken machine, you have no proof that machine has not being broken before and you have no proof that it wasn't tinkered with for this one person. You have nothing which is not proof of absence.

Use == manipulation, you manipulate the machine to use it - for an intended or unintended purpose. Semantically speaking, since you brought it up.

But go ahead - name such a machine and I will tell you what you can do with it besides it's intended purpose.

Innocent people were sent to the Maw because the engine broke. The engine broke in Legion. There is no mention whatsoever of the engine breaking prior to that. You are spouting nonsense not backed by anything in the source material. You said the engine also broke when Sylvanas died, prove it. If you keep saying "we don't know enough to know that, it doesn't mean it's wrong", that's a fallacy. So, where's your proof the engine also broke when Sylvanas died?

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHFY...ature=emb_logo

Around minute 7. He mentions how everyone is going into the Maw due to the mechanism changing in Legion.

[Raisei]

You can repeat it for as many times as you want - it doesn't make it evidence of Sylvanas being evil because we have established that innocent people can be sent to the Maw. You have no proof that it requires a broken machine, you have no proof that machine has not being broken before and you have no proof that it wasn't tinkered with for this one person. You have nothing which is not proof of absence.

You are literally going "lalalala I don't hear what you say lalala"... there is no evidence you will accept, so it is impossible to present you with evidence. Perfect way to deflect facts.

You being purposefully obtuse though does not mean the point is not valid. Sylvanas was send to the Maw before it broke because by that time she had already murdered countless innocents in her blight experiments. Deny it all you like, that is what happened.

If the Jailer could have drawn any soul he liked to him at that point already, why would he even need to recruit Sylvanas? Because she is such fine company?

[Elim Garak]

Innocent people were sent to the Maw because the engine broke.

No, lots of people were sent to the Maw because the engine broke. We are not talking about them. We are talking about a precedent that innocent people can be sent to the Maw. Specifically, we are talking about one person. I claim and it is a very logical claim - that the engine doesn't need to be broken to send people either way. It's a machine that sends people somewhere. That's it.

Also If I remember correctly players were sent to the Maw while questing. My character was innocent.

If the Jailer could have drawn any soul he liked to him at that point already, why would he even need to recruit Sylvanas? Because she is such fine company?

He needed Sylvanas to "break" the engine so that ALL souls are sent to the Maw. Clearly he was after efficiency. Isn't it obvious? He wanted more and sooner.

[shade3891]

If the Jailer could have drawn any soul he liked to him at that point already, why would he even need to recruit Sylvanas? Because she is such fine company?

Maybe he needs an outside influence in the realm of the living.

[Varodoc]

No, lots of people were sent to the Maw because the engine broke. We are not talking about them. We are talking about a precedent that innocent people can be sent to the Maw. Specifically, we are talking about one person. I claim and it is a very logical claim - that the engine doesn't need to be broken to send people either way. It's a machine that sends people somewhere. That's it.

Also If I remember correctly players were sent to the Maw while questing. My character was innocent.



He needed Sylvanas to "break" the engine so that ALL souls are sent to the Maw. Clearly he was after efficiency. Isn't it obvious? He wanted more and sooner.

I linked an interview in which Blizzard literally spells out that souls went directly into the Maw because the engine broke. The souls would normally go to the Arbiter, who then judged them, not straight to the Maw. You are clearly not paying attention, nor do you care about Blizzard's story.

Players will first visit the Maw in Shadowlands and not by dying.

[bowlink]

I linked an interview in which Blizzard literally spells out that souls went directly into the Maw because the engine broke. The souls would normally go to the Arbiter, who then judged them, not straight to the Maw. You are clearly not paying attention, nor do you care about Blizzard's story.

Players will first visit the Maw in Shadowlands and not by dying.

don't bother its pretty obvious this guy refuses to see proof nor reason. and is basicly saying the opposite for the sack of saying the opposite. hes basicly a US politician at this point

[Yarathir]

Nope. If it's possible to send someone to the maw who is not evil, you cannot use that fact as proof of evil. It could've been arranged so to force Sylvanas do the Jailer's bidding.

This is a cope and a half.

[Elim Garak]

I linked an interview in which Blizzard literally spells out that souls went directly into the Maw because the engine broke. The souls would normally go to the Arbiter, who then judged them, not straight to the Maw. You are clearly not paying attention, nor do you care about Blizzard's story.

It is you who are not paying attention. You have said that all souls go to the maw after the "engine broke" (but there is no engine, just the Arbiter) - how many times now? have I ever disputed that? No, it's a fact - once the Arbiter went dormant (something has "changed in the process.. by Sylvanas" - words from LINKED VIDEO) - all souls go to the Maw. Great. Now that we are multiple-finally FINALLY FINALLY PAST that... can you see how affecting the Arbiter affects where the souls go? What do you know about Arbiter? NOTHING. What do you know about Attendants? NOTHING. What do you know about Jailer? NOTHING.

If one can change the process to send all souls past the Arbiter - one certainly can change the process to send ONE soul past the Arbiter... so that they can blackmail it to submission to change the process permanently for all.

Logic. Do you do it?

[Varodoc]

It is you who are not paying attention. You have said that all souls go to the maw after the "engine broke" (but there is no engine, just the Arbiter) - how many times now? have I ever disputed that? No, it's a fact - once the Arbiter went dormant (something has "changed in the process.. by Sylvanas" - words from LINKED VIDEO) - all souls go to the Maw. Great. Now that we are multiple-finally FINALLY FINALLY PAST that... can you see how affecting the Arbiter affects where the souls go? What do you know about Arbiter? NOTHING. What do you know about Attendants? NOTHING. What do you know about Jailer? NOTHING.

If one can change the process to send all souls past the Arbiter - one certainly can change the process to send ONE soul past the Arbiter... so that they can blackmail it to submission to change the process permanently for all.

Logic. Do you do it?

Do you not understand how internet debates work?

I repeat myself once again.

Drop the proof (interview, line in a book, quest item, literally any indication at all) that the engine already broke/changed when Sylvanas died and thus that she was not supposed to go to the Maw.

[Yarathir]

It is you who are not paying attention. You have said that all souls go to the maw after the "engine broke" (but there is no engine, just the Arbiter) - how many times now? have I ever disputed that? No, it's a fact - once the Arbiter went dormant (something has "changed in the process.. by Sylvanas" - words from LINKED VIDEO) - all souls go to the Maw. Great. Now that we are multiple-finally FINALLY FINALLY PAST that... can you see how affecting the Arbiter affects where the souls go? What do you know about Arbiter? NOTHING. What do you know about Attendants? NOTHING. What do you know about Jailer? NOTHING.

If one can change the process to send all souls past the Arbiter - one certainly can change the process to send ONE soul past the Arbiter... so that they can blackmail it to submission to change the process permanently for all.

Logic. Do you do it?

If one could already supersede the Arbiter to send a soul to the Maw (Sylvanas') that wouldn't have gone there under normal circumstances, then The Jailer wouldn't have required Sylvanas to break the afterlife at all, since in being able to hypothetically bring Sylvanas where she normally wouldn't go, her role/purpose had already been made irrelevant.

Sylvanas went to the Maw because she was evil. End of.

[Minikin]

Yea so what? Still my favourite Warcheif

this has to be the only honest post in this entire thread.

Thank you.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you not understand how internet debates work?

I repeat myself once again.

Drop the proof (interview, line in a book, quest item, literally any indication at all) that the engine already broke/changed when Sylvanas died and thus that she was not supposed to go to the Maw.

dont bother with @Elim Garak man. at the rate of conviction hes going, hes going to make blizzard do another netflix series, this time on baine, to drive home the point "shut up, your ex-warchief is stupid evil, dont you learn ever?"

[Elim Garak]

Do you not understand how internet debates work?

I repeat myself once again.

Drop the proof (interview, line in a book, quest item, literally any indication at all) that the engine already broke/changed when Sylvanas died and thus that she was not supposed to go to the Maw.

How can I drop the proof that's gonna be revealed in Shadowlands? I have no time machine.

That's why I use logic to debunk your claims. Logic works just fine in debates. If you can logic that is.

If A has happened once - A could happen again - A could've happened before. There's no guarantee it's a one time deal only <- this is what your claim relies upon. Provide proof or use logic.

If one could already supersede the Arbiter to send a soul to the Maw (Sylvanas') that wouldn't have gone there under normal circumstances, then The Jailer wouldn't have required Sylvanas to break the afterlife at all

I have already covered that. Efficiency. Jailer couldn't "break" it from within. He needed Sylvanas to do it. Sending souls one at a time is inefficient. It probably was real hard. So Sylvanas "broke" it and all souls pour directly into the Maw by default.

[Varodoc]

How can I drop the proof that's gonna be revealed in Shadowlands? I have no time machine.

That's why I use logic to debunk your claims. Logic works just fine in debates. If you can logic that is.

If A has happened once - A could happen again - A could've happened before. There's no guarantee it's a one time deal only <- this is what your claim relies upon. Provide proof or use logic.


I have already covered that. Efficiency. Jailer couldn't "break" it from within. He needed Sylvanas to do it. Sending souls one at a time is inefficient. It probably was real hard. So Sylvanas "broke" it and all souls pour directly into the Maw by default.

Thank you for admitting you have no proof whatsoever and yours is merely a baseless theory (that doesn't even make sense as it contradicts Blizzard's canon), next time please say it right at the start of our little discussion.

[Elim Garak]

Thank you for admitting you have no proof whatsoever and yours is merely a baseless theory (that doesn't even make sense as it contradicts Blizzard's canon), next time please say it right at the start of our little discussion.

Neither do you. You are so set in your beliefs you defy logic.

[shade3891]

This thread is becoming evil...

[GrinningMan]

I mean, she has damned countless people, including the civilians of Teldrassil (possibly children as well) as well as many Alliance and Horde soldiers (which include her own people aka the Forsaken), to a torturous afterlife. Death is one thing, it happens in war, but this.....this is beyond justifiable. There is no hidden plan, no greater good. She is evil, though I wish the writers hadn't written her this way. There was a time when her ruthlessness was used for the good of her people.

ok.

Wow does that victory feel good? Get a little tickle down there from someone feeding into your psychosis?

Good job. No, really. Don't strain yourself too much patting your own back there.