Sylvanas Is Evil, Just Admit It

[Wylyth1992]

ok.

Wow does that victory feel good? Get a little tickle down there from someone feeding into your psychosis?

Good job. No, really. Don't strain yourself too much patting your own back there.

I'm confused

[Raisei]

Also If I remember correctly players were sent to the Maw while questing. My character was innocent.

If your character is as much of a Banshee loyalist as you are, they are far from innocent.

But it really baffles me how you cannot understand this: WE ARE SEND TO THE MAW BECAUSE SYLVANAS AND THE JAILER BROKE HOW DEATH WORKS. THE ARBITER IS NOT WORKING AT THE MOMENT. THAT IS THE ENTIRE IDEA OF THE EXPANSION.

You are constantly making up defenses that are clearly false, objectively disproven by lore, interviews and previews. Then you call that logic, which is an insult to the word and the ancient greeks who invented it.

He needed Sylvanas to "break" the engine so that ALL souls are sent to the Maw. Clearly he was after efficiency. Isn't it obvious? He wanted more and sooner.

So he can freely take some souls that do not deserve it, because the Arbiter sometimes just randomly ignores her entire purpose of existence, but to take a few more, he needs the help of some random Banshee in an undead Elf body.

You made all of that nonesense up, without a shred of evidence just to twist the clear evidence presented to you that Sylvanas is evil. This is so ridiculous.

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I'm confused

I think this particular apologist is implying you are suffering from psychosis because you believe in facts instead following the Cult of the Banshee's version of the lore where Sylvanas is a true Antihero that has never done anything bad in her unlife.

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Neither do you. You are so set in your beliefs you defy logic.

He presented several points of evidence. You just refuse to accept them, because you do not want to accept them, so you make up one reason after the next why everything that is brought forward against your Banshee is untrue. If anyone is defying logic, it is definately not @Varodoc. By this point though, it feels like we could be talking to a brick wall and gain a lot more results.
With your believe that genocide is not evil somehow you are obviously living in another universe from most normal people and I am glad not to be there with you.

[Elim Garak]

But it really baffles me how you cannot understand this: WE ARE SEND TO THE MAW BECAUSE SYLVANAS AND THE JAILER BROKE HOW DEATH WORKS. THE ARBITER IS NOT WORKING AT THE MOMENT. THAT IS THE ENTIRE IDEA OF THE EXPANSION.

No, no, no, you don't get to get baffled here because it baffles me that you think I don't understand the premise of the expansion which is irrelevant to what's being discussed here. We are discussing - is Sylvanas evil - good people can do evil things under duress. Sylvanas is under such duress. So can you please stop bringing up "all souls are sent to the maw" over and over again - this is not in dispute.

You are constantly making up defenses that are clearly false, objectively disproven by lore, interviews and previews. Then you call that logic, which is an insult to the word and the ancient greeks who invented it.

Show me lore that states what you claim. No one ever did.

So he can freely take some souls that do not deserve it, because the Arbiter sometimes just randomly ignores her entire purpose of existence, but to take a few more, he needs the help of some random Banshee in an undead Elf body.

Who said freely? Strawman much? I explicitly said if he needed Sylvanas - it wasn't easy for him. Logic. It works like that. Unless you want to make a "bad writing" argument.

You made all of that nonesense up, without a shred of evidence just to twist the clear evidence presented to you that Sylvanas is evil. This is so ridiculous.

Indeed ridiculous. Evidence is not proof. All evidence presented is circumstantial.

He presented several points of evidence. You just refuse to accept them, because you do not want to accept them, so you make up one reason after the next why everything that is brought forward against your Banshee is untrue. If anyone is defying logic, it is definately not @Varodoc. By this point though, it feels like we could be talking to a brick wall and gain a lot more results.
With your believe that genocide is not evil somehow you are obviously living in another universe from most normal people and I am glad not to be there with you.

I never said genocide is not evil, unless we are talking about the genocide of demons. We are talking Sylvanas here, focus! Is Sylvanas evil? Prove it if you believe so.
Also considering how often you bring up "all souls are sent to the maw" - y'all are the bricks in the wall here.

[Raisei]

No, no, no, you don't get to get baffled here because it baffles me that you think I don't understand the premise of the expansion which is irrelevant to what's being discussed here. We are discussing - is Sylvanas evil - good people can do evil things under duress. Sylvanas is under such duress. So can you please stop bringing up "all souls are sent to the maw" over and over again - this is not in dispute.

Way to move the goal post, I guess.

You said, your character being innocent and send to the Maw proves that Sylvanas who was sent to the Maw at the end of WotLK is not evil. That however is wrong, since at that time the Machinery of Death worked fine.

Evidence 1: Uther is in Bastion.
Evidence 2: Kael'thas is in Revendreth
Evidence 3: Arthas is in the Maw

It follows that Sylvanas was send to the Maw because the Arbiter decided she deserved it. Which is not surprising considering she murdered a whole bunch of farmers in Hillsbrad and used the survivors in her dispicable blight experiments. Not to mention that her entire character is rotten, she only ever thought of herself, her vengeance, her survival. There is no redemption for someone like that.

Show me lore that states what you claim. No one ever did.

Check the zone previews for Bastion and Revendreth. Read Edge of Night and the Arthas book, for an indepth show of Sylvanas character and motivation. I know you won't, you will dismiss this evidence just as you dismissed the rest.

Who said freely? Strawman much? I explicitly said if he needed Sylvanas - it wasn't easy for him. Logic. It works like that. Unless you want to make a "bad writing" argument.

None of what you say is supported by the written lore, so I won't blame the writing for it. I explicitly blame you for making a headcanon and demanding that we all take it as fact.

Indeed ridiculous. Evidence is not proof. All evidence presented is circumstantial.

I could just as well use the word proof, but you would not recognice it anyway. Your powers of denial are amazing.

I never said genocide is not evil, unless we are talking about the genocide of demons. We are talking Sylvanas here, focus! Is Sylvanas evil? Prove it if you believe so.

But I thought is all depends on the perspective and you can commit genocide without doing something wrong as long as you do it for good reasons? Hmmmm...

So genocide is evil, but Sylvanas for commiting genocide is not? Mhmmm, your "logic" is astounding, it twists and turns around the facts so much, no wonder you are so confused.

Also considering how often you bring up "all souls are sent to the maw" - y'all are the bricks in the wall here.

I have to since every post you bring up the point that "good souls can be send there, ergo Sylvanas is good" while disregarding the timing of the broken death machine completely. Try to follow me:

1) Sylvanas was send there BEFORE it broke, by the Arbiter, for her many crimes without even a shred of remorse
2) THEN it broke and
3) NOW every soul inculding the non-dead PC is sucked into the Maw.

This explains why people before Sylvanas were send to the correct place, and now they aren't. It is a very clear sequence of events. The problem is that it proofs without a doubt that Sylvanas deserved the Maw and is hence an evil unredeemable soul and that you just can't accept, so you will not accept this proof any more then you did the other ones.

[Elim Garak]

Way to move the goal post, I guess.

What the actual fuck? That was always my point. This is what the THREAD is about.

You said, your character being innocent and send to the Maw proves that Sylvanas who was sent to the Maw at the end of WotLK is not evil. That however is wrong, since at that time the Machinery of Death worked fine.

Nope. I said that if innocents can be sent to the maw bypassing the Arbiter (you know the whole premise of the Shadowlands expansion that you love to mention so much) - then Sylvanas could've been sent to the Maw bypassing the Arbiter. So her being sent to the Maw CANNOT be proof of her EVILNESS. It doesn't mean she's not evil. She might be. But the fact that she was sent to the Maw is not proof. That's it. My entire point.
Simple like that. Logic.

Evidence 1: Uther is in Bastion.
Evidence 2: Kael'thas is in Revendreth
Evidence 3: Arthas is in the Maw

Evidence of what?

It follows that Sylvanas was send to the Maw because the Arbiter decided she deserved it. Which is not surprising considering she murdered a whole bunch of farmers in Hillsbrad and used the survivors in her dispicable blight experiments. Not to mention that her entire character is rotten, she only ever thought of herself, her vengeance, her survival. There is no redemption for someone like that.

Not until we learn that Arbiter can be bypassed. Like any other system - this one is also not perfect. Then it can be followed that because of the whole Jailer/Sylvanas deal - she was not sent to the Maw because she was evil, perhaps something else was afoot.

Check the zone previews for Bastion and Revendreth. Read Edge of Night and the Arthas book, for an indepth show of Sylvanas character and motivation. I know you won't, you will dismiss this evidence just as you dismissed the rest.

I can only dismiss something that is provided. I can read anything and form my opinion on that - that wouldn't be dismissing - but you have firm believes that she is evil - so demonstrate the evidence.

None of what you say is supported by the written lore, so I won't blame the writing for it. I explicitly blame you for making a headcanon and demanding that we all take it as fact.

I have no head-cannon. I don't know the story of Shadowlands. Neither do you. Blizzard can make a U-turn in a snap. Considering how comically obviously villainy they portray Sylvanas as of late - I cannot dismiss the possibility that it is intentionally made so that people will believe she's the villain while she's not - you know - for a twist! And the existence of the Jailer is evidence supporting that.

I could just as well use the word proof, but you would not recognice it anyway. Your powers of denial are amazing.

You provided no proof. Call it denial - because it is, but it's warranted denial because it's truth.

But I thought is all depends on the perspective and you can commit genocide without doing something wrong as long as you do it for good reasons? Hmmmm...

You can commit genocide being good - it is not the same as committing genocide without doing something wrong. If you are forced to genocide race A to save race B - you are committing genocide, you are doing something wrong. But you are also doing something good. Saving race B which so happens is more numerous than race A. And you were forced to choose - otherwise both races die.

Solve that EVIL dilemma.

So genocide is evil, but Sylvanas for commiting genocide is not? Mhmmm, your "logic" is astounding, it twists and turns around the facts so much, no wonder you are so confused.

See above. I am not surprised your lack of understanding of ethics is as lacking as the understanding of logic.

I have to since every post you bring up the point that "good souls can be send there, ergo Sylvanas is good" while disregarding the timing of the broken death machine completely. Try to follow me:

I didn't say it means she's good. I said it doesn't prove she's evil. Can you taste the nuance here?

1) Sylvanas was send there BEFORE it broke, by the Arbiter, for her many crimes without even a shred of remorse
2) THEN it broke and
3) NOW every soul inculding the non-dead PC is sucked into the Maw.

1. It doesn't matter. And it ain't broke... it was changed. it still works - just in the "To The Maw" mode. If it can work like that - then Sylvanas could've been sent to the Maw by the same principle and thus it cannot be uses as proof of her evilness. How many times do I have to repeat that?
2. Doesn't matter when it was changed into PERMANENT "To the Maw" mode.
3. Obviously.

This explains why people before Sylvanas were send to the correct place, and now they aren't. It is a very clear sequence of events. The problem is that it proofs without a doubt that Sylvanas deserved the Maw and is hence an evil unredeemable soul and that you just can't accept, so you will not accept this proof any more then you did the other ones.

No, it doesn't. If anything it puts doubt on whether everyone before was JUSTLY sent where they belong. Can you even see it like that? I wonder... Are you willing to make an outrageous claim that no "mistakes" were made before? No system is perfect. Especially not the ones that can be changed in such a drastic way as has been demonstrated by Sylvanas/Jailer.

[Raisei]

I can only dismiss something that is provided. I can read anything and form my opinion on that - that wouldn't be dismissing - but you have firm believes that she is evil - so demonstrate the evidence.

So I tell you exactly where the evidence is, you proceed to ignore it and demand evidence again. There really is no point anymore. Not gonna waste my time with searching for links that you could find in 3 min with a google search. You would just ignore it again. This will be my last post. Even among the other apologists you are a rare kind of obtuse.

I have no head-cannon. I don't know the story of Shadowlands. Neither do you. Blizzard can make a U-turn in a snap. Considering how comically obviously villainy they portray Sylvanas as of late - I cannot dismiss the possibility that it is intentionally made so that people will believe she's the villain while she's not - you know - for a twist! And the existence of the Jailer is evidence supporting that.

WoW's story does not work that way. Remember the Burning of Teldrassil and how everyone was thinking "Nah, it won't be Sylvanas, much too obvious, it will be Tyrande, or Jaina or Nomy", and who was it in the end? Exactly. WoW's story works along Occam's Razor, twists are nearly non-existant. The easiest explanantion just does not suit you, because your Dark Lady could neeeever be evil. Even after blatantly murdering hundreds of innocents, her own people and trying to murder your character in Nazjatar, unleashing an Old God declaring her disdain for the living you cannot accept this very simple fact.

You provided no proof. Call it denial - because it is, but it's warranted denial because it's truth.

I did. Shadowlands previews, Edge of Night, Arthas book, all of bloody BFA. But whatever. You are literally lying and calling it truth. I have no idea how that works in your mind.

You can commit genocide being good - it is not the same as committing genocide without doing something wrong. If you are forced to genocide race A to save race B - you are committing genocide, you are doing something wrong. But you are also doing something good. Saving race B which so happens is more numerous than race A. And you were forced to choose - otherwise both races die.

Ah I see and who did Sylvanas safe by mass murdering innocent civilians, children included? What forced her to murder these non-combatants that were no threat to her or the Horde and in fact would have been more useful to her as hostages?
Your thought experiment is cute, but it does not apply here at all. There was no dilemma, Sylvanas could have taken the tree and negotiated for the hostages with Anduin, there was nothing to loose by doing that and lots of things to gain. Instead she chose to slaughter them needlessly because a dying elf triggered her by using the word "hope".

See above. I am not surprised your lack of understanding of ethics is as lacking as the understanding of logic.

I love how you defend a genocidal psychopathic zombie and call that ethics. Really your "logic" boggles the mind.

1. It doesn't matter. And it ain't broke... it was changed. it still works - just in the "To The Maw" mode. If it can work like that - then Sylvanas could've been sent to the Maw by the same principle and thus it cannot be uses as proof of her evilness. How many times do I have to repeat that?
2. Doesn't matter when it was changed into PERMANENT "To the Maw" mode.
3. Obviously.

Ion at Blizzcon 2019: "The machine of death is broken"
You: "The machine of death is not broken"

At least I am not the only one whose words you dismiss and twist until they fit your headcannon.

No, it doesn't. If anything it puts doubt on whether everyone before was JUSTLY sent where they belong. Can you even see it like that? I wonder... Are you willing to make an outrageous claim that no "mistakes" were made before? No system is perfect. Especially not the ones that can be changed in such a drastic way as has been demonstrated by Sylvanas/Jailer.

It has been stated that the Arbiter sees everything you did, think and are in an instant, then decides where you belong. But yeah it makes sense that you are not accepting the judgement of a being with eons of experience in that job because your beloved Dark Lady was judged to be irredeemably evil. Your understanding of the character cannot be wrong after all! It has to be the entire system that is wrong!

[Tyrannica]

Everyone with a brain knows she is evil. The question is if the writers know this as well.

lol, i bet they don't!

[Fetus Rex]

Source please.

And no, not a source for the quote - A source for being an ally of someone means they can't possibly be your master as well.



Then why didn't she kill her sisters? Why didn't she lament that their souls didn't feed the Jailer?

She seems to only care about things important to her - Which is entirely in character for her - But if she's 100% for the Jailer, there is absolutely no reason she would not have killed her sisters in The Three Sisters. Vol'jin was saved, but at least with reason for being so - Since he then named Sylvanas warchief. But her sisters have not helped her rise to power in the slightest. There is absolutely no reason she should have kept them alive while ALSO 'lamenting' how few souls were fed to the Jailer.

It sounds more like the 'baseless assumption' is that Sylvanas is serving the Jailer as a willing participant, since she keeps acting in ways that save lives and DOESN'T send souls to the Jailer.



It's called magic, sir. We don't know how Sylvanas was let out of the Maw, and we have no reason to believe that the Jailer can't pull her back whenever he decides to.

Thus, we can't with certainty say that she's acting entirely of her own free will. She may HAVE to act in a certain way for the Jailer to allow her to remain his 'ally.'



Source please.

You do this a lot - You insert your headcanon into known lore, and then presume, but you refuse to accept that there are other ways to view things. You can't definitively say that's what she meant at all.



And? She says a lot of things, most of which she doesn't mean.



Yes, she literally does. Toying with your prey suggests some level of enjoyment out of their suffering. If you aren't getting any enjoyment out of it, you're not 'toying with your prey,' you are just torturing them.

Which, she can't even be said to be doing here, because she's letting her sisters live.



No, she didn't, and they haven't. She might (Again, big MIGHT here) believe they are LIKELY to die, but she doesn't KNOW they are going to. Nor does she KNOW everyone else will either.



And I can directly quote her saying "I will not use the plague on Gilneas" too.

It's almost like sometimes, Sylvanas... LIES!!!! Not to mention, she says this to a Val'kyr, who we know are the ones who first approached her when she threw herself from Icecrown.


If she wants to work against the Jailer, she most certainly wouldn't tell his agents that she's doing so.



Except it doesn't contradict anything.



I don't believe it at all.

I'm literally telling you IT IS POSSIBLE that this is what Blizzard has planned.

And again: You're reading the wrong context clues. Her actions at Icecrown are undoubtedly DESTRUCTIVE.

Destructive =/= Evil. Our actions on Argus were DESTRUCTIVE, because we DESTROYED the Legion and their plans, along with their entire home base of operations. Our actions on Outlands were DESTRUCTIVE, we destroyed the Fel Orc blood drinking machine, we destroyed Kael'thas' Tempest Keep, we destroyed the Fel-infused Sunwell. Sargeras' Burning Crusade was DESTRUCTIVE, but it still held the ultimate end goal of stopping the Void Lords from manifesting in the universe - Destructive actions do not necessarily prevent people from having the 'greater good' at the forefront of their mind.

Her actions at Icecrown were DESTRUCTIVE, because she tore open the veil between life and death. That's undoubtedly destructive. But whether that destruction serves a greater end goal is not clear.

But let's be real, if you were GOING to get this, you would have already. There's no point in continuing to discuss.

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Burn down a major city because someone said something she didn't like...
Resurrect a dead loved one to attempt to send him back as a sleeper agent...
Send assassins to kill a previously-well-liked leader JUST IN CASE he might decide to fight against you...

She's committed several war crimes just from these three alone.

But that's not why she has burned Teldrassil. War Crimes are nonsense. The Horde should not recognise this Pandaren bullshit.

[Raisei]

But that's not why she has burned Teldrassil. War Crimes are nonsense. The Horde should not recognise this Pandaren bullshit.

Alas, they do recognize it and all attended the trial of Garrosh for Warcrimes. Well, except for Sylvanas, who obviously felt her personal "suffering" at Garroshs hands outweighed everyone else's.

[Varodoc]

I mean, Sylvanas was victim of misogyny at the hands of Garrosh's madness, so she clearly suffered more than the refugees of Theramore or Ashenvale.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Alas, they do recognize it and all attended the trial of Garrosh for Warcrimes. Well, except for Sylvanas, who obviously felt her personal "suffering" at Garroshs hands outweighed everyone else's.

Not like it matters anyway, as the verdict was already set in stone before the trial even began and the 4 spirits of dumb-shittery just played along with this farce. I still don't get how anyone can like that novel, it was the biggest waste of time ever. Kairoz could have shown up during the final cut scene and it would have had the same effect. Garrosh was never getting a guilty verdict and all this was about was some collective soul searching, only to undermine all of that with a time-travel escape, lol.

[Azerate]

18 pages of quarreling over an obvious fact, what?

[bowlink]

18 pages of quarreling over an obvious fact, what?

Not obvious to some apparantly

[MrHappy]

it doesn't mean i wouldn't align myself with her if blizz would allow it.
I mean i would love to have a separate death faction that has the only goal to extinguish life.

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Not obvious to some apparantly

it's more of (personally) not caring. If I can get power at the cost of lives of others then "Death to all the living!"

[Florena]

Not like it matters anyway, as the verdict was already set in stone before the trial even began and the 4 spirits of dumb-shittery just played along with this farce. I still don't get how anyone can like that novel, it was the biggest waste of time ever. Kairoz could have shown up during the final cut scene and it would have had the same effect. Garrosh was never getting a guilty verdict and all this was about was some collective soul searching, only to undermine all of that with a time-travel escape, lol.

I agree in general that the whole thing was dumb, but this seems to be a misconception I see a lot.

The trial was not about whether Garrosh was guilty or not. The trial was about whether he should be put to death or not. It was basically a sentencing trial for prison vs death penalty, at no point where they like 'yeah we'll just let him walk free with no consequences at all.'

The trial was still dumb but it wasn't quite THAT dumb.

[Fetus Rex]

Alas, they do recognize it and all attended the trial of Garrosh for Warcrimes. Well, except for Sylvanas, who obviously felt her personal "suffering" at Garroshs hands outweighed everyone else's.

It was the first time for them. It's forgiveable, everybody wants to see a circus at least once in life.

[Itisamuh]

I would be willing to bet that the majority of Sylvanas and/or Garrosh supporters have no problem with admitting they were at least borderline evil. I personally want the Horde to be dark so the faction war actually makes sense, so I like any leader that takes it in that direction, even though Blizzard inevitably ruins it later.

[Unholyground]

Evil is in the eye of the beholder, some people think killing animals for meat is evil for example but most people eat said meat. She thinks her cause is just so we perceive her as evil because we love things that she has destroyed.

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I would be willing to bet that the majority of Sylvanas and/or Garrosh supporters have no problem with admitting they were at least borderline evil. I personally want the Horde to be dark so the faction war actually makes sense, so I like any leader that takes it in that direction, even though Blizzard inevitably ruins it later.

From a game play and PVE standpoint having the factions split still makes no sense, Blizzard had to force it for BfA and it took the game a step back as far as player choice and freedom goes, they need to remove the PvE faction barriers already.

[Yarathir]

Sylvanas is still objectively evil by the way.

[Life-Binder]

Sylvanas is still objectively evil by the way.

I hope she conquers Death itself too