Legion M+ vs BFA M+ Which was Better

[Relapses]

And just like yours, all of this is just my opinion. Notice the lack of name calling for those who took part in the poll. Eh.

I'm fine with open-minded criticism which looks at both sides of the issue. I have no problem with people preferring Legion over BfA. My criticism was mostly with people who have already made up their mind that BfA sucks, will give zero fucking thought into the question at-hand and simply vote for Legion because it's the option that isn't BfA.

[docterfreeze]

Trash packs in BfA dungeons require just as much attention as the bosses themselves, they're just over with faster. Don't like that.

[GucciWarr]

For the ultra high end, BFA was better because it was more refined and designed for them.

For everyone else, Legion was better because it was a lot less dependent on a tank memorizing a 30 pull route before entering the dungeon, with trash mobs every 3 feet that cause a failure if you pull them and numerous one shot mechanics.

BFA M+ is a disaster once you get below +15 - if you don't know the dungeon, you fail miserably, and where the hell are you going to learn? M0? In BFA, I would bet that the vast majority of keys below +15 are failures. Legion was far more forgiving to less experienced players. I don't like the whole "1 mistake = fail" when I'm in a learning group (and let's face it, if you're in anything below +15, you're in a learning group).

Bruh I’m CE and I do 14 spam for loot, you’re an ape and probs 6/12M LOL
Infracted

[Volatilis]

Court of stars > any BFA dungeon.

[Sharby]

Classes felt better in Legion, Dungeons are designed better in BFA.



Reason why Legion is superior is because Class Design> Dungeon Design in the end, and Legion's dungeons weren't even that bad.

[Azerate]

BfA for me. But I also barely did any m+ in Legion, as well I only played Legion from 7.2 and in a more serious manner in 7.3 only. I didn't really get into dungeons in Legion and had no chance to check them out at m0 at launch, which I feel adds a lot to the experience.

Legion had some annoying gimmicky dungeons though, which I felt were just annoying, like the one where you get to interview party members for some info. Damn that was a pain.

And then the dungeons added in 7.2 and 7.3 were just super hard and annoying and no one ever wanted to do them. I don't think I ever managed to do Seat above +4 because no one wanted to do it.

And yeah, a lot of people just hate on the current m+ because of the BfA hate bandwagon.

[Kaver]

I really don't like BFA because of all the bad content and systems in the game.. but the M+ system was not one of these.

Therefore I answered: BFA

My reason: In Legion, M+ was very much "hack and slash". You pulled extremely big and then AOE everything down while AOE chain stunning and kiting. It was very simple and a lot of people like this type gameplay. But I don't. In BFA the trash pulls became much more complicated. Blizzard introduced mechanics that made it impossible for the tank to simple kite mobs like they did in Legion. Marking mobs and having an interrupt order because more essential. A lot of people don't like this. But I do.

Disclaimer: In the MDI M+ became much more like Legion mainly because of the Unholy DK AOE burst. But in general this was not the case on live servers in BFA.

I like the dungeons themselves better in Legion. Tol Dagor can go to hell

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This is kind of where my beef is. Did a Waynecrest Manor on my Healer 15 within the timer no problem. I can do all keys within the time on my healer even though I'm not fully aware of the trashes mechanics, just stay out of swirly stuff that clearly hurt.

Difference on my tank is insane, to make things smooth I need to know everything. Your tank being the weak link is never a good thing, but in Legion good DPS could carry a meh tank by just pulling for him and killing everything before he got himself killed.

Each week I'm chain running a given dungeon on a 12 through 14 before I try a 15 so I learn everything including pathing. The curve is so much steeper, but it feels good when you get it.

Having challenging trash is what I loved about TBC Heroics. However the difference is.....TBC had no timer. I could take my time and perhaps ask my team questions if needed. M+ it's pedal to the metal.

I completely understand your situation and frustration. But can I ask, why don't you learn the trash mechanics of the dungeons (for example Waycrest)?

I think Waycrest is a good example because most people are probably not fully aware what the different witches do and the difference between them. But is this Blizzards fault? Is a bad game design? Or is it simply the responsibility of the players to research the game mechanics? I don't have the answer.

[Garymorilix]

Legion was an AoE zerg fest. What we have now is infinitely more interesting.

Also, the seasonal affixes are awesome. The first one was the worst by a large margin but even that kept dungeon runs fresh.
I will be very sad once Awakened is gone forever and we will have to resort to inviting mandatory rogues for some dungeons. This affix is literally the best thing that ever happened to M+ and nothing will top it.

Legion also had some of the worst dungeons I have ever witnessed.
Seat of the Triumvirate can go fuck itself to hell and never come back. Same goes for Xavius and DT overall.

[kranur]

BfA because most of the dungeons are a lot cooler than Legion's.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

Wait.
Is this the only thread where the majority of the feedback for a BFA feature comes on top of another expansion? (at least those who went into the trouble of replying in the thread)
On the topic I feel that m+ in BFA were better. (maybe court of stars had a couple of features that were interesting but other than that bfa m+ hands down)

[God Save The King]

In regards to systems, I think BFA is better. Tuning is better, dungeons were planned around M+ more, and the affixes were pruned down and balanced. Plus many annoying parts of keystones were removed, such as 2/3 chesting, having a dozen gear sets for a single dungeon, key depletion, and more.

For general dungeon design/feel, I vastly preferred Legion dungeons. Some of my all time favorite dungeons are there such as Darkheart Thicket, Halls of Valor, Arcway, and Court of Stars. None of the BFA dungeons I particularly enjoyed. Of the lot, I'd say Freehold and Waycrest Manor are pretty good, but nothing spectacular. The rest have more than enough issues and I'll be glad to be in Shadowlands dungeons soon.

I think having fortified/tyrannical affixes are quite bad. I didn't really love doing keys beyond 10 in legion, 2-9s were my favorites but I did do a lot of higher 10s and low 20s in Legion, especially towards the end. Having fortified/tyrannical a permanent part of running keys has really been a bummer this expansion. Bosses are not nearly as interesting as they were in Legion. Tyrannical never feels overly difficult, just really tedious and dull. Fortified is a bit better, but it makes each pack take far too long and also slows the dungeon down in a different (also bad) way. I'd personally like to see them removed, or at least put into rotation, and have a general buff for health/dmg across the dungeon. They're easily the dullest of the affixes and I'd like to see some variety. As an aside, having essentially the same affixes for 4 years (now 6 if they don't change stuff in SL) gets a bit boring. It'd be like having raid bosses do the same thing over and over again. Sure there are some issues with repeated mechanics, but most raid bosses feel unique enough for me. I'd be fine with them scrapping all current affixes and giving us fresh ones.

I also think seasonal affixes, overall, are quite bad. They suffer from the same issue I have with fort/tyrannical. No variation. 4-6 months of the exact same mechanic in any reasonably challenging keystone gets really boring. I especially dislike Season 4's affix because it places such a tremendous burden on tanks. I usually tank every season but this season I have been hesitant because of how much more difficult it is. Adding even more load to the most demanding role isn't really fair, especially when we have an existing tank shortage. Season 1 at least had some weekly variation as to where infested packs changed. Reaping was really boring and not challenging, just adding a few more pulls in the dungeon. Beguiling was probably the best since the emissaries would change and we'd have weeks were certain ones were more common, and it favored some less used classes (like MW monk was amazing at dealing with the one needing knocked back). Awakened is easily the worst for me. It devalues classes that bring skips, it has absolutely no variation, it makes dungeon pathing much harder and unintuitive, has massive penalty if messed up, and is very hard to learn.

Overall I prefer Legion, mainly because BFA feels stale, has forced the boring tyrannical/fortified affix at all levels, and has dull seasonal affixes with little to no variation.

[Tradu]

I just don't tank m+ anymore. To heal it, I just show up and everything is fine. I get my one +15 and move on, done for week in an hour.

To tank it a +15 well, I would basically run it a couple times on lower levels first and try to perfect the path. It just isn't worth the effort.

You really don't need a very good path to time keys. The other day I 2chested a Junkyard+16 or so with a tank who seemed to actively make the worst route choice at every point of the dungeon.

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Legion was an AoE zerg fest. What we have now is infinitely more interesting.

Also, the seasonal affixes are awesome. The first one was the worst by a large margin but even that kept dungeon runs fresh.
I will be very sad once Awakened is gone forever and we will have to resort to inviting mandatory rogues for some dungeons. This affix is literally the best thing that ever happened to M+ and nothing will top it.

Legion also had some of the worst dungeons I have ever witnessed.
Seat of the Triumvirate can go fuck itself to hell and never come back. Same goes for Xavius and DT overall.

I'd like you to meet Tol Dagor and Siege of Boralus. Tol Dagor makes lower Kara's multiple floors look well designed and Siege being different depending on faction (including Alliance just losing something like 15 seconds to RP for no reason) is one of the most amazingly stupid design decisions in any dungeon, as well as having 2 of the dumbest tyrannical bosses of any dungeon.

[Matthias]

I completely understand your situation and frustration. But can I ask, why don't you learn the trash mechanics of the dungeons (for example Waycrest)?

I think Waycrest is a good example because most people are probably not fully aware what the different witches do and the difference between them. But is this Blizzards fault? Is a bad game design? Or is it simply the responsibility of the players to research the game mechanics? I don't have the answer.

Are you asking why I don't learn the mechanics of the dungeon as I heal them that way I don't I feel comfortable on my tank?

If that's the question, I do my best to do so, but nothing beats first hand experience. And once again, the tank sets the pace so while I could be watching every ability of each mob, I'm also expected to be thinking about the next few pulls.

In my experience doing S4 Mythic+ nothing beats an extremely well versed tank. It's super easy to tell the difference between a super confident one that knows the mechancs to a tee and one a bit more fresh and hesistant, even if not necessarily bad. Just the amount of CC they bring can prevent silly deaths.

Whereas M+ in BFA healers just feel like they are there for damage control. So much damage is avoidable if things are done right. Hence why I got invited to so many groups with an underwheling IO score.

[Sphynnxx]

For me, overall experience of M+ BFA comes out on top.

Thematically/aesthetically however, I prefer the Legion dungeons – same could be said for the expansion overall though, so perhaps it’s just that bias talking.

[Vyndion]

Legion.

+2 Tyrannical/Fortified is a mistake and it's sad it's not getting removed for SL.

[Wuusah]

Legion had the better dungeons, BfA has the better M+ system.

[froschhure]

Not comparable

[VinceVega]

I don't think you will get a represantable poll here. The hateboner for BFA is too strong.

But i think BFA dungeons have been overall not as good as the ones in Legion, from a "looks" perspective.

Mythic+ mechanics have been a good deal better in BFA and the abilities also.

So overall i think BfA was a improvment to Legion.

[Lord Pebbleton]

I prefer Legion ones, and not because I hate BfA or anything. M+ just felt like a fresher concept during their first iteration and I kinda got tired of the pattern at the end of Legion aswell. With BfA the new environments kept me interested for a bit but ultimately I didn't like them anymore like I used to.

[Matthias]

I don't think you will get a represantable poll here. The hateboner for BFA is too strong.

But i think BFA dungeons have been overall not as good as the ones in Legion, from a "looks" perspective.

Mythic+ mechanics have been a good deal better in BFA and the abilities also.

So overall i think BfA was a improvment to Legion.

I think a good point that's been made though is that M+ is only more tolerable in S4 due to the Obelisk skips.

I wasn't having fun in M+ at launch, learning the pulls/skips for each dungeon was an overwhelming task in my opinion. Otherwise you overpull and lose dungeon time

Legion was largely the opposite it was just a matter of knowing what few extra packs needed to be pulled on the way to the boss which I just found easier to remember. The progress bar in my opinion was clearly designed to prevent players from inevitably finding away to get to the final boss while killing minimal trash packs as we have in previous expansions.