The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[Mace]

I'm wondering how hard it is for blizzard to fix up the night elves well.

Presumably they have:
1. All the assets for Suramar
2. They have pristine versions of all the ruins in
a) Meredil
b) Nar'thalas
c) Zin'Azshari
d) Cathedral of Eternal night
e) all the ruined temples of Elune
- if I understood correctly, they actually have pristine versions first, then ruin them example:

Then they can literally

1. Build a new city piecing together different bits from all these, then colouring them correctly and adding magical effects, population
2. Actually place rebuilt ruins in many places, we could have a rebuilt Azsuna, Meredil, in Darkshore and Ashenvale all those ruined cities could simply be put together in different combinations, colours etc
3. Repairing forests would be easiest - although they could change the colouring of the damaged parts.


I must admit I have an ulterior motivation for suggesting this.. I want them to focus on upgrading the blood elf assets. If they do this well, they can actually use use the same process to populate Thalassian town.. all they need to do for void elves is simply change the spire tops and colours to purple and gold with void effects and void wings instead of phoenix wings.

Swap the arrangement around, and bingo you get both a city for blood elves and one for void elves/high elves.

Night elves get their fancy new home - minimum effort spent and it's not Suramar, but it's just as nice
Void elves also get their city too, they can enjoy it for all it's dark themes but can have space for High elves too.. but

Blood elves get an updated Silvermoon and Quel'thalas properly reparied, with a restored forest, restored city, restored villages and towns, and some new architecture models.

Blizzard does indeed have non-ruined versions of the ruins.. the way doing ruins has worked since WoD si that they build the actual thing, then they do ruined version of it by breaking it in bits.. it's the most authentic way to do ruins..

This means all the ruins of Broken Isles have pristine versions..and those models can be used/restored for new night stuff.

here is another example of a pristine version of parts of Meredil



They can literally restore all the ruins of Zin'Azshari, Azsuna. Val'sharah and of Suramar (outside the city)

Secondly they can re-use all those building in Suramar city - but as you can see it's just not enough to have the pristine buildings.

You have to add life and decoration to it, special effects, - you'd have to do the gardens, the star and moon effects, add treants, ancients, citizens, arcane wonders, wisps , as well as ornamentation, the constelalation roof top covers like you see in the video of zin'azshari.


The architecutre of the buildings would be very similar, kaldorei stuff is beautiful - it'sjsut that the various sections will have different effects and marks. The highborne section will have jewlled glass roofs like this:



the non-highborne sections with the other residents, the craftsmen and tradesmen areas would have lots of gardens in and around their buildings like this:



City centre will look like Zin'Azshari and you would have places with roof top gardsn and also night sky constellation roof tops like in the Zin'Azshari picture here.


see the circled areas, - you have a specail blue rooftop that has constellations in it.. and you can see how rich the city is in gardens and plants off some buildings including roof top gardens, mixing nature with great marble work.


Here is a picture of the old models used in Darnassus - check the white buildings with beautiful patterns and green/nature intermixed in the stone work as well as teh marble bridges, and off course you see a lot of grass and flowers outside the paths.

This is how you do night lf stuff.. combine the jeweled buildings of Suramar for highborne, the majestic buildings of Zin'Azshari for the city centre and the main municiapl buildings, and you get the flowered garden stuff on their houses.


notice how you draw elemnts from every piece of work done for night elves.


1. It has to have a great temple of Elune:

( recolour by goddess of light
2. City Centre like this


3. The highborne section like this


4. Residential section like this

5. the houses are gardened like this


6. and a mixture of marble and nature in the stonework, with some areas having jewlels embdeed (highborne and centre) , stars contellation and glowy moon bits (temple)s etc,


The elements are all there just do a great city

[Tanaria]

We have to look at the information that we're presented with.

Now, the canon lore states that the Night Elves that we play as, are moving back to Hyjal. This is where the elven leadership met with Thrall, Baine and Calia.

I don't think we'll see a change in narrative for the night elves. I do think the Priests and Druids will play a large commanding role in all-things, Night Elf. Sentinels and Wardens to follow, Mages after with the Demon Hunters playing a very small role (as far as the Alliance goes.)
The only way round for Demon Hunters to play a role with the night elves and blood elves alike, would be for Illidari Ambassadors to have a footings within both a revamped Quel'Thalas and Hyjal alike.

Now, let's go back to Hyjal and why would Blizzard choose this over other locations like Eldre'Thalas or Val'Sharah or Azsuna? Well, fan-outcry.
Displacing the Night Elves from Kalimdor was just something that didn't sit well with night elf fans. Having Gilneas as their new home didn't fly either. In the main, night elf fans wanted their race to go back to Kalimdor and Blizzard answered with that. They did not continue the idea of Horde Kalimdor and Alliance Eastern Kingdoms.

I don't believe giving the Night Elves, Val'Sharah as their new home, even with Blackrook Hold as their new capital fortress, would have been enough. Nor do I think giving them Azsuna would have been enough. It's Kalimdor. Night Elf fans wanted Kalimdor and that is what is being given. Now, vengeance against Sylvanas isn't being given, but going back to Kalimdor is being given.

I just hope that Hyjal is updated and given fully to the Alliance/Night Elves. Along with Darkshore and Ashenvale. I'd go as far to say that the Horde should be removed from Ashenvale, but then the Alliance is removed from the Barrens.

[OwenBurton]

We have to look at the information that we're presented with.

Now, the canon lore states that the Night Elves that we play as, are moving back to Hyjal. This is where the elven leadership met with Thrall, Baine and Calia.

I don't think we'll see a change in narrative for the night elves. I do think the Priests and Druids will play a large commanding role in all-things, Night Elf. Sentinels and Wardens to follow, Mages after with the Demon Hunters playing a very small role (as far as the Alliance goes.)
The only way round for Demon Hunters to play a role with the night elves and blood elves alike, would be for Illidari Ambassadors to have a footings within both a revamped Quel'Thalas and Hyjal alike.

Now, let's go back to Hyjal and why would Blizzard choose this over other locations like Eldre'Thalas or Val'Sharah or Azsuna? Well, fan-outcry.
Displacing the Night Elves from Kalimdor was just something that didn't sit well with night elf fans. Having Gilneas as their new home didn't fly either. In the main, night elf fans wanted their race to go back to Kalimdor and Blizzard answered with that. They did not continue the idea of Horde Kalimdor and Alliance Eastern Kingdoms.

I don't believe giving the Night Elves, Val'Sharah as their new home, even with Blackrook Hold as their new capital fortress, would have been enough. Nor do I think giving them Azsuna would have been enough. It's Kalimdor. Night Elf fans wanted Kalimdor and that is what is being given. Now, vengeance against Sylvanas isn't being given, but going back to Kalimdor is being given.

I just hope that Hyjal is updated and given fully to the Alliance/Night Elves. Along with Darkshore and Ashenvale. I'd go as far to say that the Horde should be removed from Ashenvale, but then the Alliance is removed from the Barrens.

Nar'thalas and Black Rook Hold should be restored to the night elves, I think that that would give both Azsuna and Val'sharah more screentime, or else they will either be forgotten mostly, or become what Yrel became from Draenor, essentially ruined. Honestly, Farondis was one of my favorite characters - his defiance of Queen Azshara was one of the greatest quotes ever.

“The people of Azsuna were ― and always will be ― too proud to kneel before your demonic allies, witch. And we will NEVER...KNEEL...BEFORE YOU!!!”
- Prince Farondis to Queen Azshara in Azsuna

But the Horde can and SHOULD get something in return, to make lore development balanced and fair. Honestly, I think the blood elves and nightborne could rebuild and settle Nazjatar - the sin'dorei have a far closer bond historically with their fellow Highborne naga, they even left for another planet to serve Kael'thas Sunstrider, whose life they literally saved in Dalaran, for years; Dath'Remar of Zin-Azshari was literally one of Azshara's closest advisors and trusted servants; and they have a much deeper connection with the ancient city than for example, Shandris or Malfurion or even Tyrande, Maiev and Jarod (all of whom are from Suramar and its surrounding regions, not Zin-Azshari in any case). An underwater and restored Horde elven city would be awesome - Oculeth's telemancy linking the sister cities of Zin-Azshari and Suramar once again after 10,000 years!


https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...ing_screen.jpg

And regarding demon hunters and perhaps death knights (I think that would be fitting, given the prevalence of Death in this expansion) play a much more active role in Alliance and Horde politics after this expansion. Night elf demon hunters could perhaps build a new base somewhere in Felwood (where there was a demon hunter questline) while cleaning up the Legion's mess there. They are still their people's greatest warriors, even if they did not have much interest in the faction war beforehand. But things change...and people change. Remember, even Illidan would have fought for Tyrande and Malfurion at Teldrassil, most likely, had he not been otherwise occupied, the entire polnt of their story was that they literally sacrificed (and keep sacrificing) everything to serve and protect those they love, in a world which constantly reviles and hates them. I can see Tyrande and the other night elves empathizing with Altruis the Sufferer, for example - especially as he seems honorable from their perspective and openly rejected Illidan's mistakes.

I think blood elves could really use the demon hunters to tremendous effect, imagine if Kayn Sunfury became one of Lor'themar's greatest warriors, working alongside the Farstriders and dark rangers or something, leaping from a high rooftop and suddenly striking hard and fast against their greatest enemies, as an elite strike force team or something, while the blood elf mages and rangers provide ranged support from the sidelines, pelting their opponents with fiery arrows and arcane spells.

[Tanaria]

Nar'thalas and Black Rook Hold should be restored to the night elves, I think that that would give both Azsuna and Val'sharah more screentime, or else they will either be forgotten mostly, or become what Yrel became from Draenor, essentially ruined. Honestly, Farondis was one of my favorite characters - his defiance of Queen Azshara was one of the greatest quotes ever.

“The people of Azsuna were ― and always will be ― too proud to kneel before your demonic allies, witch. And we will NEVER...KNEEL...BEFORE YOU!!!”
- Prince Farondis to Queen Azshara in Azsuna

But the Horde can and SHOULD get something in return, to make lore development balanced and fair. Honestly, I think the blood elves and nightborne could rebuild and settle Nazjatar - the sin'dorei have a far closer bond historically with their fellow Highborne naga, they even left for another planet to serve Kael'thas Sunstrider, whose life they literally saved in Dalaran, for years; Dath'Remar of Zin-Azshari was literally one of Azshara's closest advisors and trusted servants; and they have a much deeper connection with the ancient city than for example, Shandris or Malfurion or even Tyrande, Maiev and Jarod (all of whom are from Suramar and its surrounding regions, not Zin-Azshari in any case). An underwater and restored Horde elven city would be awesome - Oculeth's telemancy linking the sister cities of Zin-Azshari and Suramar once again after 10,000 years!


https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...ing_screen.jpg

And regarding demon hunters and perhaps death knights (I think that would be fitting, given the prevalence of Death in this expansion) play a much more active role in Alliance and Horde politics after this expansion. Night elf demon hunters could perhaps build a new base somewhere in Felwood (where there was a demon hunter questline) while cleaning up the Legion's mess there. They are still their people's greatest warriors, even if they did not have much interest in the faction war beforehand. But things change...and people change. Remember, even Illidan would have fought for Tyrande and Malfurion at Teldrassil, most likely, had he not been otherwise occupied, the entire polnt of their story was that they literally sacrificed (and keep sacrificing) everything to serve and protect those they love, in a world which constantly reviles and hates them. I can see Tyrande and the other night elves empathizing with Altruis the Sufferer, for example - especially as he seems honorable from their perspective and openly rejected Illidan's mistakes.

I think blood elves could really use the demon hunters to tremendous effect, imagine if Kayn Sunfury became one of Lor'themar's greatest warriors, working alongside the Farstriders and dark rangers or something, leaping from a high rooftop and suddenly striking hard and fast against their greatest enemies, as an elite strike force team or something, while the blood elf mages and rangers provide ranged support from the sidelines, pelting their opponents with fiery arrows and arcane spells.

The thing is though - Blood Elves and Nightborne don't need to restore Zin-Azshari, nor would they truly want to.

It's not in the interests of their playerbases either. For many years, the Sin'dorei fanbase just wants a restored and revamped Quel'Thalas.
The Nightborne - well, they probably won't get anything.

I just don't see Nazjatar playing a role for the Horde, in the future. Ideally, due to their connection with the Void and the Arcane, the Ren'dorei would make better occupants of Zin-Azshari, than the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei.

And regarding the Demon Hunters:
Again, they have no reason to commit to either faces of the kaldorei and sin'dorei (Tyrande and Lor'themar.)
They are brothers and sisters in arms - what they were before is irrelevant to all of them.

[ravenmoon]

Nar'thalas and Black Rook Hold should be restored to the night elves, I think that that would give both Azsuna and Val'sharah more screentime, or else they will either be forgotten mostly, or become what Yrel became from Draenor, essentially ruined. Honestly, Farondis was one of my favorite characters - his defiance of Queen Azshara was one of the greatest quotes ever.

“The people of Azsuna were ― and always will be ― too proud to kneel before your demonic allies, witch. And we will NEVER...KNEEL...BEFORE YOU!!!”
- Prince Farondis to Queen Azshara in Azsuna

But the Horde can and SHOULD get something in return, to make lore development balanced and fair. Honestly, I think the blood elves and nightborne could rebuild and settle Nazjatar - the sin'dorei have a far closer bond historically with their fellow Highborne naga, they even left for another planet to serve Kael'thas Sunstrider, whose life they literally saved in Dalaran, for years; Dath'Remar of Zin-Azshari was literally one of Azshara's closest advisors and trusted servants; and they have a much deeper connection with the ancient city than for example, Shandris or Malfurion or even Tyrande, Maiev and Jarod (all of whom are from Suramar and its surrounding regions, not Zin-Azshari in any case). An underwater and restored Horde elven city would be awesome - Oculeth's telemancy linking the sister cities of Zin-Azshari and Suramar once again after 10,000 years!

To be honest I kinda feel that the night elves and their anceint heritage should be explored greatly by them. They really are lacking connecting the dots ingame and delving and unearthing this side to them in game though ti's been done in the books most players have no idea - besides this continues the story those who read the novels started, so it really is their thing rather than the blood elves who have many story strands and other things they are involved with.

Zin'Azsahri, formerly known as Elundris is there birth place, it has this inexorable tie to their arcane birth, the goddess Elune and nature - - I don't think the blood elves who really moved on from their night elf past would hold much interest for it.. they did without night elf enhancements for 7,000 years and forged their own destiny.

The Nightborne while also having a claim, are super content in their city, Suramar is in tact, they need to recover from the Legion losses, , it won't hold the same symbols to the rest of the kaldorei - as these lot didn't suffer the consequences of the Legion's first invasion and succeeding sundering. I don't mind the Nightborne having some role, but if I am gauging it correctly, their focus is been put on the blood elves rather than their night elven side - which is a shame, it is the night elven things about them that distinguish them from the blood elves -but it's not my call.

In the Nightborne, after 10,000 years with only Suramar, lessons of hubris that invoke humility and respect from seeing Zin'Azshari would be far less powerful to them than the Darnassians, coupled with their much lower Elune ties, the origin of their race would not bea s important, although , to be fair, it could be immensely important tot hem or at least the priest sect of them (this is another developer call on how they want to do this. Although it's a small step, they are once removed from their origin. it's much more powerful to night elves, especially Priests, Highborne anad civilians who might want to reclaim it and restore it as the original symbol of their race and all that was good before Queen Azshara's ambition and vanity led to her corrupting their people. But I can see it potentially being made to mean more to Nightborne. Not blood elves though.

And I should remind you that it isn't horde elves that are homeless and been beaten several times. Quite the opposite for the victorious blood elves and Nightborne, so it makes little sense to compensate the horde that way. night elvs and void /high elves are the ones that need homes. If you want to help horde races - you can do something for Goblins, Vulpera and Mag'har orcs.


Nar'thalas, Zin'Azshari, Azsuna, Val'sharah, Suramar zone outside the Nighthold, Hyjal, Ashenvale, Feralas, Desolace, Darkshore, Stonetalon all are night elf buisness

Nightborne are a city state, pretty much like Dalaran ( I half expect a flying Suramar soon ), Blood eles control all of Quel'thalas and if you ask me, EPL, and that as yet unlocked zone scream blood elf. They also have assets in

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wo...ing_screen.jpg

And regarding demon hunters and perhaps death knights (I think that would be fitting, given the prevalence of Death in this expansion) play a much more active role in Alliance and Horde politics after this expansion. Night elf demon hunters could perhaps build a new base somewhere in Felwood (where there was a demon hunter questline) while cleaning up the Legion's mess there. They are still their people's greatest warriors, even if they did not have much interest in the faction war beforehand. But things change...and people change. Remember, even Illidan would have fought for Tyrande and Malfurion at Teldrassil, most likely, had he not been otherwise occupied, the entire polnt of their story was that they literally sacrificed (and keep sacrificing) everything to serve and protect those they love, in a world which constantly reviles and hates them. I can see Tyrande and the other night elves empathizing with Altruis the Sufferer, for example - especially as he seems honorable from their perspective and openly rejected Illidan's mistakes.

I think blood elves could really use the demon hunters to tremendous effect, imagine if Kayn Sunfury became one of Lor'themar's greatest warriors, working alongside the Farstriders and dark rangers or something, leaping from a high rooftop and suddenly striking hard and fast against their greatest enemies, as an elite strike force team or something, while the blood elf mages and rangers provide ranged support from the sidelines, pelting their opponents with fiery arrows and arcane spells.

I think they shoudl tone down on the faction politics and let the races play out as their own far more indepednent entities interactingg with each other i ways that the faction divide limited in the past.

Still, I would love to see more demon hunter interactions outsde the legion, we have had a lot of DK lore, in the past, in Legion and in SL, DHs were absent from BFA, and SL.. so I feel should have much more involvement.

FElwood should be cleansed by now, I'm thinking they have a good place for a base on the southern section of the broken shore, i'd love to see the Order of Elune clean up and restore the Cathedral and see night elf, nightborne and new void elf priests of Elune training there.

I agree with teh second part also, but I see them totally emphasizing with Illidan, they were wrong about him, wrongly accused him, locked him up for 10,000 years and a label he was not guilty of for them, and now they know it.. yet he is the reason the Legion is gone, and theya re the reason he got so extreme.

How do you deal with that? Things like that shoudl be explored, but i n a way that's worthy of the night elves.


Personally, I still see fel being banned, but demon hunters allowed because they know they can be trusted to use that terrrrible power, they literally give everything and the motivation is a goood one
But as the magic is so dangerous , it is not tolerated in any other hands
I also see a lot of night elf males flocking to illidan's ways , a lot of anger from the burning of Teldrassil, and to be fair, it's female nighte lves that are closer to Elune and so deal with it more via the process Tyrande went through, althou the opposite genders to get involved in both.
I also see the night elves now using hte power of the Well of eternity and the emerald dream to imprvoe, restore, rebuild and defend themselves , as well as empower, but there's is from a protection stand point of their lives rather tahn the more destructive stance the blood elves took.

That's just my thoughts

[Alanar]

Sorry raven or mace I cant get behind your ideas or views. You want something that is just not feastable without stepping on horde feets, just because you guys think we need more sympathy towards night elves. At this point.. with what you guys want, while punnishing other horde races such as blood elves for your own sake is unacceptable for my taste.

I tried to find ways in between, but its literally impossible with what you want. I never liked the idea of sharing assets at all. Because A) its not needed at all and night elves have enough styles of their own. B) stealing important race assets are not to be shared to keep them distinct enough.

Same reason as thorns in hair should be night elf only.

This will never work out.. and I agree with both Tanaria and Beloren that your ideas are just... not very good. Dont blame us for blizzard story and dont blame horde races for that either. I dont need a sorry or a yes but we are such fans of night elf nonesense. You guys are simply to fanatic and being fanatic could be fun as a fan, but only thing you guys ever done here is upsetting horde fans, because you guys are still salty on Nightborne and Suramar.

Just leave that arcane stuff were it belongs and accept the fact that night elves are just not what you want them to be.. they moved on, but you guys didnt. No hate, but just done ... I realy dont want to read your essays again and find out that, that whole liece of text could have been said in 3 lines..

Its no fun guys

[Tanaria]

Sorry raven or mace I cant get behind your ideas or views. You want something that is just not feastable without stepping on horde feets, just because you guys think we need more sympathy towards night elves. At this point.. with what you guys want, while punnishing other horde races such as blood elves for your own sake is unacceptable for my taste.

I tried to find ways in between, but its literally impossible with what you want. I never liked the idea of sharing assets at all. Because A) its not needed at all and night elves have enough styles of their own. B) stealing important race assets are not to be shared to keep them distinct enough.

Same reason as thorns in hair should be night elf only.

This will never work out.. and I agree with both Tanaria and Beloren that your ideas are just... not very good. Dont blame us for blizzard story and dont blame horde races for that either. I dont need a sorry or a yes but we are such fans of night elf nonesense. You guys are simply to fanatic and being fanatic could be fun as a fan, but only thing you guys ever done here is upsetting horde fans, because you guys are still salty on Nightborne and Suramar.

Just leave that arcane stuff were it belongs and accept the fact that night elves are just not what you want them to be.. they moved on, but you guys didnt. No hate, but just done ... I realy dont want to read your essays again and find out that, that whole liece of text could have been said in 3 lines..

Its no fun guys

To be honest, I think the whole business with Suramar and the Nightborne on the Horde is so 4 years ago.
Build a bridge and get over it.

[Mace]

Owen and Raven, Blood elves getting into Zin'Azshari, is like night elves getting into Silvermoon.. hey let's connect you to your heritage, but let's bring the night elves along with it.. I mean you can, but you're like, this is really for the race that still bears the identity.

And for those who feel it shouldn't play any role because night elves left the arcane a long time ago..that doesn't make sense at all - you shouldn't explore parts of your lore because one group banned the arcane for a while? Not to mention that such isn't the case now at all. And low numbers doesn't mean low relevance, and low current significance doesn't mean it should be ignored, never looked at or never improved, especially when its's actually quite cool or good.

[ravenmoon]

Owen and Raven, Blood elves getting into Zin'Azshari, is like night elves getting into Silvermoon.. hey let's connect you to your heritage, but let's bring the night elves along with it.. I mean you can, but you're like, this is really for the race that still bears the identity.

They'd probably involve the other elf group to have the other faction able to participate in the content, .. which is fine, but then the other faction fans would like it so much they'll QQ for it and then blizz will give it to them.


Sour grapes aside, with Nightborne and Void/high elves playable now, you don't need blood elves involved with Zin Azshari if you want the horde to play a part use Nightborne, nor do you need night elves to be involved with Quel'thalas and Silvermoon, you can use void/high elves who have the necessary relevance.

This is because both kaldorei and shal'dorei are connected to Zin'Azshari by virtue of who they still are, and both void/high elves and blood elves are connected to Quel'thalas and Silvermoon as we all know story wise.



It won't be the same for say destroyed Darnassus, Nightborne and Shen'dralar have no connection to it it doesn't involve them, but if the Darnassians were to split further down the line in a scenario it was still standing, the two new factions would have relevance to Darnassus. It's just how it is.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry raven or mace I cant get behind your ideas or views. You want something that is just not feastable without stepping on horde feets, just because you guys think we need more sympathy towards night elves. At this point.. with what you guys want, while punnishing other horde races such as blood elves for your own sake is unacceptable for my taste.

Who's punishing who? I think I missed the part where I suggested blood elves be punished

I tried to find ways in between, but its literally impossible with what you want. I never liked the idea of sharing assets at all. Because A) its not needed at all and night elves have enough styles of their own. B) stealing important race assets are not to be shared to keep them distinct enough.

Same reason as thorns in hair should be night elf only.

I would still like to see things relevant to night elves show up in their presentation, visualisation and customisation. They don't have to be identical to Nightborne, usually I would use Nightborne as an example or simply a means to suggest how blizzard could easily show an aspect of the night elves via what they have done in their sub-race.


I would prefer for night elves to get their own version.

The star arcane tattoos on Tyrande's Avatar of Elune model and her night warrior model are a classic example of night elves having their own version of a customisation that speaks to their arcane and Elune connection more visibly. It's different from the Nightborne Tattoos and customisation, and speaks to a kaldorei version of the same thing.

Neither nature nor arcane nor the stars are exclusive property to night elves, nor are they to any other race that are prolific in them. If Night elves have lore relevance and connection to it, and it's nice, I'd like to see a version of it on them. It doesn't have to be the same as what Nightborne or or Kul'tirans or Trolls have, they should design something unique.

however I would settle to similar thing to Nightborne if they get lazy because at least it is still relevant because of who they are.. I am after things I like in night elf lore being more visible, and I would always ask for more of those things as well as new things I feel might be cool. It' s just what I want, some share my views others don't, that's fine. It's not accept by force.

[Tanaria]

Sour grapes aside, with Nightborne and Void/high elves playable now, you don't need blood elves involved with Zin Azshari if you want the horde to play a part use Nightborne, nor do you need night elves to be involved with Quel'thalas and Silvermoon, you can use void/high elves who have the necessary relevance.

This is because both kaldorei and shal'dorei are connected to Zin'Azshari by virtue of who they still are, and both void/high elves and blood elves are connected to Quel'thalas and Silvermoon as we all know story wise.

Have we ever considered just involving all the elves when it comes to Zin-Azshari?

Blood Elves hale from there, embracing their very Highborne ancestors
Night Elves hale from there
Nightborne had allies and friends from there
Void Elves hale from there, embracing the current vibes of the location (void and arcane.)

Why limit who can have what? That's a problem within a small part of the night elf fanbase. Dictating which elves have lore when and where.

BFA got it wrong with Jaina and Genn, but a full Elf-involvement in Zin-Azshari...a revisit...that would go down well with the elf fanbases across the board.

[Alanar]

They'd probably involve the other elf group to have the other faction able to participate in the content, .. which is fine, but then the other faction fans would like it so much they'll QQ for it and then blizz will give it to them.


Sour grapes aside, with Nightborne and Void/high elves playable now, you don't need blood elves involved with Zin Azshari if you want the horde to play a part use Nightborne, nor do you need night elves to be involved with Quel'thalas and Silvermoon, you can use void/high elves who have the necessary relevance.

This is because both kaldorei and shal'dorei are connected to Zin'Azshari by virtue of who they still are, and both void/high elves and blood elves are connected to Quel'thalas and Silvermoon as we all know story wise.



It won't be the same for say destroyed Darnassus, Nightborne and Shen'dralar have no connection to it it doesn't involve them, but if the Darnassians were to split further down the line in a scenario it was still standing, the two new factions would have relevance to Darnassus. It's just how it is.

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Who's punishing who? I think I missed the part where I suggested blood elves be punished

I would still like to see things relevant to night elves show up in their presentation, visualisation and customisation. They don't have to be identical to Nightborne, usually I would use Nightborne as an example or simply a means to suggest how blizzard could easily show an aspect of the night elves via what they have done in their sub-race.


I would prefer for night elves to get their own version.

The star arcane tattoos on Tyrande's Avatar of Elune model and her night warrior model are a classic example of night elves having their own version of a customisation that speaks to their arcane and Elune connection more visibly. It's different from the Nightborne Tattoos and customisation, and speaks to a kaldorei version of the same thing.

Neither nature nor arcane nor the stars are exclusive property to night elves, nor are they to any other race that are prolific in them. If Night elves have lore relevance and connection to it, and it's nice, I'd like to see a version of it on them. It doesn't have to be the same as what Nightborne or or Kul'tirans or Trolls have, they should design something unique.

however I would settle to similar thing to Nightborne if they get lazy because at least it is still relevant because of who they are.. I am after things I like in night elf lore being more visible, and I would always ask for more of those things as well as new things I feel might be cool. It' s just what I want, some share my views others don't, that's fine. It's not accept by force.

Sure I get that, but its very hard to make them distinct enough to warrant playable, but still want the same thing. Hence ideas like: runic tattoos, but blue, ear armor, but white or mana hands, but more glowy will not work because the main argument here is that: Nightborne excists, because they cover a side of the night elves/highborne that was missing from being playable and felt different enough vs the Night elves and these small costumization options is what seperates them, which is important to me.

I have already said it, but I think race orientated costumization that makes them what they are. An example would be the the antlers from high mountain.
Imagine you being you, but instead your race of choice is tauren and you want those antlers for tauren, because x.

It destroys the purpose of being a high mountain! Now put nightborne and night elves there.. see how rediculous this is?

Night warrior costumization extension is not a terrible idea, I would say its a cool and unique looking skin. Tyrande would make a good example I guess of what thst should look like, add in some stars there and sure It would fit. Creating something new like you said or their own arcane version is again a no. Same reason.. that side is covered and night elves have enough stuff for their own. It will end in more of the same and it doesnt add anything new either.

[ravenmoon]

Sure I get that, but its very hard to make them distinct enough to warrant playable, but still want the same thing. Hence ideas like: runic tattoos, but blue, ear armor, but white or mana hands, but more glowy will not work because the main argument here is that: Nightborne excists, because they cover a side of the night elves/highborne that was missing from being playable and felt different enough vs the Night elves and these small costumization options is what seperates them, which is important to me.

Creative differences then? the arcane is the arcane, how it is represented has already long since been set both visually and aesthetically in game - whether on humans, any kind of elves or others.. blizzard sometimes gives different versions of the same magic group on different races where they are so inclined.

But there are a lot of things that are the same. The night elves do get unique things, some of those things were shared with the Nightborne. You don't even know which things are given to the Nightborne as part of their kaldorei heritage and were not meant to be a Nightborne unique thing.

do you then go and say this is Nightborne now when actually it was never meant to be exclusively Nightborne?

Inevitably, void elves, high elves and blood elves will share many things some they will not.

Artistic variations are all well and good, I like them. I have expressed my desire for night elves to have different visualisation, you don't want them to have any representation at all. Well that's a different take, you want night elves to be exclusively forest and nature based elves then as that is the only thing that's they have that the blood elves don't or the Nightborne don't?

I don't want that. For me Night elves were given a measure and level of arcane affinity, connection, presentation as well as fel via the demon hunters. just because they choose to include blood elves in in the Illidari doesn't mean that night elves shouldn't have that, and just because they spawn a sub race of night elves that focuses on only one part of the kaldorei , doesn't mean that part shouldn't exist for the kaldorei any longer.. it's like say because Lightforge now have the impressive light connection, we shouldn't have that in the draenei anymore.

It is that singular approach that should be removed, it was never part of the way Warcraft did races anyway. Unlike DnD who would have forest elves, then dark elves, and all kinds of groups only about one thing, wow races like night elves , humans, orcs etc were introduced having many different things to them, different orders, nations, communities, clans etc. Those all had a lot of similarities and some differences..nothing on the scale of hey lets remove arcane representation and visualisation because we should now consider that a Nightborne thing and make night elves exclusively about the forest.

That may be okay for you, but as a night elf fan, I'm sorry, I love the love of the race, including those arcane and star Elune bits you think aren't different enough to remain and should rest on the Nightborne only.

I would be less inclined o argue if they were on the same faction, but even if they were, like Lightforged and Draenei are, or Tauren an d Highmountain are, the existence of a thing on the sub race shouldn't necessarily eliminate it from the core race.

Nightborne excists, because they cover a side of the night elves/highborne that was missing from being playable and felt different enough vs the Night elves and these small costumization options is what seperates them, which is important to me.

The point about the sub-races is not to cover a side that is missing, it's telling a story of the race in a new way and just slapping on a new model so it looks a bit different, this adds tot he feeling that the expansion, that also has new zones also has new bestiary and new races, , it's not designed to "cover" the aspect of a race that is missing. Before the Nightborne showed up, the kaldorei already had teh arcane back, elune was stilla great part of the race too and all the offense magics of her priesthood are arcane, the druid spell arsenal for offense is half arcane and nature, and the night elf mages are shown to use that same star and moon magic, - the Nightborne showing up just showed a community of Highborne led night elves in a pristine state, the difference is that the once on the kaldorei had their city in ruin.. that's it It's not some big statement of showing two halves, it wasn't meant to be and doesn't follow the the pattern of every other allied race and their pairs. Do you not see it is ingrained in the night elf, asking for visualization is not stealing from Nightborne or wanting to take from them, Nightborne are a visualisation in and of themselves of said kaldorei, so having the kaldorei have their own visualisation I think is something that's very exciting and should happen, but I will agreew ith you,it should be made to look different.

It doesn't have to be as prevalent as Nightborne, but when you see glowing stars on a night elf you instantly will connect it to their arcane heritage and Elune, you won't be thinking Nightborne, their tattoos are totally different. but we don't prevent them from having tattoos because night elves have them. We give htem tattoos because night elves have them, just give them a totally different kind, because they are night elves, just sub group of them.

I have already said it, but I think race orientated costumization that makes them what they are. An example would be the the antlers from high mountain.
Imagine you being you, but instead your race of choice is tauren and you want those antlers for tauren, because x.

It destroys the purpose of being a high mountain! Now put nightborne and night elves there.. see how rediculous this is?

I get what you mean, so I'll say it again, yes I would prefer if they gave night elves different customisations to the ones Nightborne had, but customisations that reflected aspects of the night elf lore. So customisations that represent the forest affinity, but also the arcane affinity, Elune affinity, star and moon magic -,and off course one for the Illdiari. The Illidari have, we just want something to represent the arcane and Elune customisations.. as these are also part of kaldorei lore and story.

Just because they are part of the Nightborne too, doesn't mean they should be exclusive to the Nightborne, that I completely disagree with, however I would agree with you that it would be better if they night elf arcane and Highborne options looked different.

At the end of the day it's the same race that has many things in common. They don't have to be identical, nor completely different. Theyw eren't introduced to be completely different either, at the end of the Nightborne story you see druids and priests working with them and helping them. the Arcan'dor, their salvation and centre of their new era exists because of that very druidic concept, would you then say Nightborne shouldn't have druids because the kaldorei do? Tha'ts a bit silly, then might as well eliminate monks, warriors and a a whole host of classes.


It makes no sense to exclude things form the Night elves because the Nightborne have them.. might as well just make every race have one class and one thing - but wait, that's not how the warcraft races work or have ever worked, they have a lot of similarities and a few differences, especially within the same racial bracket.

Sub-races people enjoy for the nuances and some of them aren't meant to be a totally different thing or even a half different thing, they are meant to be teh same thing often enough but with just a different look, maybe one thing different or maybe two and that's it

You are spot on that if you give the main race that option then it makes the sub-race a bit redundant, so maybe let's not have ears and skinnier bodies (or bulkier bodies) unless you want to do something else with them like enable night elves who've joined the Nightborne to be playable or want to define Highborne night elves as skinnier - then the purpose of the customisation becomes different, which is what they did with void elves.


that is also okay, although it makes them more similar. Which I can understand some not liking.

Night warrior costumization extension is not a terrible idea, I would say its a cool and unique looking skin. Tyrande would make a good example I guess of what thst should look like, add in some stars there and sure It would fit. Creating something new like you said or their own arcane version is again a no. Same reason.. that side is covered and night elves have enough stuff for their own. It will end in more of the same and it doesnt add anything new either.

What Tyrande has is their own arcane version.. because the magic of Elune, and the star magic and moon magic they use is arcane. It is connected... having star arcane tattoos like Tyrande actually is a representation of their arcane connection as well as could be seen as Elune. The two aren't mutually exclusive in Night welf lore, both bodies deal with the same thing but with different focuses. The priests started studying the Well to get close to Elune, it is likely from them the mages developed as some night elves figured out practical applications that could be useful in everyday life, in time knowledge and application would grow exponentially enough to be it's own thing. whereas the priests focus on spirituality, the meaning of it all, they have their own research etc.

ti's actually all over the night elf classes as you can see in priests and druids, so to it is in mages. Anyway, the pre-sundering, the arcane, the Highborne, the Moonguard, that is all a part of night elf lore, just because the Nightborne have that as the horde night elves, doesn't now mean we ignore it in night elves, remove the Highborne, and all traces of civilization , Elune and arcane magic.. no, it's what they are.. having a second group come in and be lucky enough to present a visual picture doesn't remove it from the group it is based on that already has it, even though it isn't shown yet.

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Have we ever considered just involving all the elves when it comes to Zin-Azshari?

You can do, all elves are connected to night elves and Zin'Azshari the birth place of the night elves.. however not all elves are connected to SIlvermoon, only Thalassians are, but night elves are connected to Thalssians, because they come from them.


I have clearly considered it, in my earlier response, i said "... which is fine" - you didn't quote that bit, it's clear I've considered it. And I also share my opinion.

They'd probably involve the other elf group to have the other faction able to participate in the content, .. which is fine

My opinion is, this is fine - already did.. you need to read what I write my friend.

Blood Elves hale from there, embracing their very Highborne ancestors
Night Elves hale from there
Nightborne had allies and friends from there
Void Elves hale from there, embracing the current vibes of the location (void and arcane.)

Yes you are correct, it's clear you know your elven lore. my point was not that they dind't have relation nor connection, just that it's just not that relevant to thalassians, just as silvermoon isn't htat relvant to Night elves - but sure, they can invovle them. You don't have to involve blood elves with every exploration of night el f lore.. I'm hungry for them to show more o fthe night elf lore and show night elf interaction - but they keep digressing and involving every Tom, dick and harry from the horde in it too, humans, space goats - sheesh, it's like when they had Krassu, Rhonin and Brox go back in time.. don't need to have every tom dick and harry, you can just have the night elves be about the night elves.

Why limit who can have what? That's a problem within a small part of the night elf fanbase. Dictating which elves have lore when and where.

BFA got it wrong with Jaina and Genn, but a full Elf-involvement in Zin-Azshari...a revisit...that would go down well with the elf fanbases across the board.

It's not about limiting, it's just about focusing on the night elves for their story so we can get a bit more about it without having to include Rhonin, Brox, Lor'themar, Jaina and Velen too.

[Tanaria]

It's not about limiting, it's just about focusing on the night elves for their story so we can get a bit more about it without having to include Rhonin, Brox, Lor'themar, Jaina and Velen too.

You already get that in Azsuna and Val'Sharah.

Azeroth is now above and beyond night elves.
Nazjatar would never have worked as just Night Elves vs Nightborne. It had to involve others.

Obviously, the Horde got it right with the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei. It was great to see both fighting the Naga.

Alliance was obviously wrong, because it was Humans vs Naga (with Shandris.)

And your already involving other races with this idea of a cleansed Tomb of Sargeras. You want Void Elf Priests involved with the Night Elves and Nightborne. So we've got a contradiction right here. It seems to me, that so long as Nightborne aren't with Blood Elves or the Horde, your happy.

Well, with that idea and since Nightborne are more "Mage" inclined, Quel'Thalas should rebuild it's arcane academies and their should be Sin'dorei, Shal'dorei and Forsaken involved with those, but this has the greater emphasis than the Priest thing, because it's Horde races working together and the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei have greater affinity to the Arcane, than they do to Elune.

[Mace]

The way I see it is Warcraft was never a franchise of this is a race that does one thing, and here is another race that this other thing is their thing only + they're all the same size and everyone has equal portions.

It's more a game of this is nation or group of nations , all different sizes, some do many things, some do only one thing well. The differences are more in their story than necessarily their "thing". Although in TBC it did have a feel of this is the priest race or the mage race - I hated that, it was cheap and lazy, humans are never portrayed like that, and I specifically loved Warcraft because Orcs were not portrayed like that, nor dark elves. It made their world seem more realistic and detailed. A bit like ours, bigger nations or family of nations have many things they are great at, but some have only one thing known for, this happens. it's realistic.

So it was disappointing to that appearing to be the case for a little while. Thankfully it was only a season.

The way I see it is night elves are a race of nature users, arcane users, fel users, Elune worshippers too - the proportions and numbers vary, based on period - they've got history, but these are the4 magical areas that dominate in addition to rangers. Nightborne are just a nation of primarily arcane wielding night elves, they have one thing as their main thing. Them having this doesn't mean the larger night elf body doesn't or shouldn't, or another race.

And frankly both customisations of a race and presentation in game should reflect the powerful lore crafted for each. Some have several, some have just 1 - I like that it isn't the same, the mix is different and often enough the intensity or flavour is different.

Night elves do religion different from trolls or humans, they have night cities while blood elves have day elven ones, their arcane has every conventional mixture (arcane,elemental (i.e. fire/frost/earth etc) because they are the oldest and most advanced users, but their unique signature is star celestial arcane) compared to blood elves and humans or other magic groups. Nightborne s hare this which is fine, it's 2 groups but they are of the same racial stock. Nightborne though are given chronomagic as their greater emphasis, makes sense star magic is more children of the stars which Nightborne have an element but they are given a few different things.

Shouldn't surprise anyone that when fans get into a race, read about it and play it, they want to experience and see all the things they love about the race, in addition to new developments, and they would want so regardless of whether the sub race or another race has those things. Blood elf fans want arcane development for themselves regardless that humans first had in game and forsaken have it too as major parts of their race.

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You already get that in Azsuna and Val'Sharah.

I think he meant as a general matter of principal, not as a new rule this must be enforced..



You should be able to understand him, craving for blood elf lore, you don't want every aspect of blood elves explored with an entourage around, you probably want maximum time devoted to them in it without having humans or night elves taking more attention.

We don't always g et what we want, if you have lore, be grateful you have as much as you do, blizzard famous for neglecting races. This is why warcraft needs race campaigns wih new quests, exploration of a race and stories coming every patch.

[Beloren]

In my opinion they should just continue to develop each race according to their story. Fans love the story and lore package that pertains to the races they are attached to right? We can all agree on this?

Well blizzard should look at what they've done and how they've built up each race and continue to tell that story, regardless of what the other race does. They don't have to develop night elves and nightborne as two halves of the same coin - they may be the same race, but they are two different communities. The same is the case for high elves and blood elves. They all have different origins and also different challenges and disasters that happened that is far more particular to their group.

They shouldn't think oh because we've done this in one group we shouldn't do this in the other - that's not optimal Just develop each group according to their story. Keeping and improving all the good things and showing how they overcome the weaknesses and bad things in their past in addition to new things.

So The positives:

1. Fans want the good and best things from the past and present in the lore (players are most drawn to this),
2. Overcoming the weakness and bad things of their past (these make the best stories usually), and triumphing over their enemies and traitors (best feel good factor) and finally:
3. New developments that are cool and powerful.

The Negatives:

1. What fans hate is when cool things form the lore and past are ignored, retconned or removed
2. Hate when the race is weakened and portrayed like a joke
3. Hate when the race doesn't improve or do anything cool in the areas it was good before.

Night elves - have the story of the Well of Eternity, Elune, the World tree, the pre-sundering civilization/empire and the long vigil, the first invasion of the legion and sundering, the second invasion on Hyjal and the war of thorns they have the story that deals with Moon priestesses, Highborne, druids, Moonguard, Wardens, Sentinels, Illidari demon hunters, the Night Warrior Queen Azshara, the naga, the satyr - northern kalimdor and the broken isle night elf areas apart from Suramar city. The hubris of Azshara, addiction, abstinence, restoration, re-introduction, War of the Satyr, redemption of the satyr, pact iwth the dragons,blessing of the world tree. guarding of the Well of Eternity, use of the Moonwells.

Areas of growth = Night warrior, restoration, Farondis, reclaiming and rebuilding their lands (druids and emerald dream), temples (priests and font of Elune), cities (highborne and the well of eternity) with this, interactions between Illidari, Highborne, priestesses and druids in light of Legion ending, the massacre of War of thorns, revelation of Elune in SL. Also relationship development with Draenei, Worgen and Void elves primarily alliance raises.

Nightborne - is the story of Suramar and the particular group of night elves who stayed there, their story involves Suramar past and present, 10,000 years under the shield and what that means, then the Legion attacking again, Gul'dan and the Eye of Aman'thul, Elisande and almost losing the city to them requiring the other elves, Class order halls and kirin'tor to help. The Nightwell dependance and it's dark legacy, excessive arcane magic, the Arcan'dor and redemption and balance through nature in balance with arcane, the duskguard, the fal'dorei, the felborne, the withered, chronomagic, foretelling, telemancy, friendship with the blood elves,, conjured armor, Suramar's kaldorei culture. Blood elf friendship. Star Augurs, Priests and Elune reconnection. The Nightwell, legacy and each of Elisande

Areas of Growth: Arcan'dor and re-introduction to druidism and Elunism via priests that moved back, rebuilding of the duskguard, wildwalkers, restoration of their arcane power but now via the Arcan'dor, development of chronomagic, exploration of fel magic, complex city politics Daes Damaer type manoeuvring. Lor'themar and Thalyssra relationship, Blood elf interaction, Sunwell influence, exploration of modern druidism via Farodin (druid class), re-introduction of Elune, interaction with island kaldorei - interaction with other horde races like Zandalari trolls.

Blood Elves - have the story of the Quel'thalas, the exile, the scourge devastation, the Sunwell, and the sunwell interaction, arcane magic reclamation, addiction, Fire magic, Phoenix mages, protection of Quel'thalas, restoration of the Ghostlands, Farstriders, Magisters, Blood Mages, Anima Magic, Blood Knight Paladins, the Royal House of Quel'thalas, Silvermoon City, interactions with the shattered offensive, The Sunreavers, the Scryers, Dalaran interactions. The Amani trolls, complex human frenemy interactions, high elf complexity, void elf fears. Netherstorm, Hellfire peninsula zones and communities. The darkfallen and San'layn, the Wretched.

Areas of growth: Blood magic, priesthood, BElf warlocks, magic hunting in every community, leadership of the horde, interaction with undead human neighbours, complex human relationship, troll prejudice, Dalaran influence, kaldorei magic knowledge reclamation, Eastern Kingdoms politics - what to do with EPL, outland asset development and management, Farstrider expansion, Botanist development., Fel elf restoration. Sin'dorei navy.


Void Elves: - have the story of overcoming the void and using it, handling the void as a weapon and asset, arcane applications of the void, void in all their classes, rejection by Quel'thalas, blood elf defectors, High elf wanderers, Ethereal friendship and enemies, human alliance friendship, Lightforge compliment in Alleria with Turalyon. Rallying point for high elves. fighting and triumphing over the whispers. Dealing with mistrust amongst some alliance light followers.

Areas of Growth: Working with the light as an opposite compliment, growth in void magic interacting with all other fields, high elf development, development with other alliance races in particular night elf Highborne, black moon priest sect, helping druids with the nightmare void incursion. Development with humans - the ren'dorei as a faction can include racial void elves that interact more with draenei and night elves and racial high elves that are more involved with humans and Lightforged regardless of their former political associations. Saving Quel'thalas from the void, trying to win the blood elves back



There are areas of overlap, quite a few, no race is an island, nor is it isolated with its past, we can't ignore that, it's part of what makes the race who they are, there are a lot of unique things however and the way each race handles its affairs and each thing is quite unique. in the above example the way Night elves will do druidism and the way nightborne would be introduced to it is a different tale entirely and focus even though there is interaction and overlap.

If you read through my list, whiles there are similar themes of great tragedy, magic etc, each group is quite different if you consider the history it has and deals with. We don't concern blood elves, Nightborne or void elves with the origin of the night elves because they have their own origin that pertains to them, but that still doesn't mean other elves can't play a role, other elves played a role in Suramar and the Nightborne's opening story, but it is the Nightborne's story, not the story of the night elves and the blood elves who helped them.


Zin'Azshari would be a night elf themed story, @OwenBurton and @Tanaria, not nightborne or blood elves even though they have claim. Just like Suramar is Nightborne story now @ravenmoon and @Mace, not a night elf story even though night elves have claim having come from it. Silvermoon is a blood elf story, yes void elves and high elves come from it, but void elves have an origin story - it involves Telogrus rift and Argus.

• When you deal with Zin'Azsahri - it's night elves mainly (despite the Nightborne connection)
• When you deal with Suramar - it's Nightborne mainly (despite the night elf deep connection)
• when you deal with Silvermoon it's blood elves mainly (despite the high elf/void elf deep connection)
• When you deal with Telgorus Rift it's void elves mainly

I think they should continue telling their unique stories with the races largely in mind, you can fill Zin'Azshari and the night elf lands with blood elves and nightborne who have connections, but then , you should then also fill Silvermoon and quel'thalas with void elf and high elf involvement, Suramar will have to have Darnassian night elf involvement too and because of the links.


I just notice we get too greedy. Ravenmoon wants Darnassians interaction with Suramar but not Blood elf/Nightborne with Zin'Azshari, Tanaria wants Blood elf/Nightborne interaction with Zin'Azsahri but not night elves in Suramar - this won't work. You either get all the qualified races involved in the interaction or have only the origin race involved - not pick and choose one to favour your pet race..

Best Way To Portray Imo
@Alanar - I think the way I've outlined things is fair and the best approach for all, you can't avoid overlap at all, they are right that there is lots of connection, however you can and should maintain uniqueness - which exists through each groups story - I don't think total segregation of themes is how to handle it - because there is far too much interlink each fan groups like about their race and no one want to lose or diminish the aspects they fell in love with just so new boys can feel more unique. I can understand that, sp it is separation of story and destiny should be the cornerstone to build a unique feel and portrayal - these groups, they've all gone their own directions, they are effectively 4 nations of elves that are all unique despite their many overlaps and similarities. They certainly feel unique when you combine this with their aesthetic, each of their own unique elements together combine to make each really unique despite their similarities. It's never just one thing that makes them feel unique, and they certainly should do a D&D thing where only humans feel real and other races are one-trick or one feature groups.

And @Mace - the models should have their own unique things too. unless they introduce lore where night elves are part of the nightborne and vice versa or nightborne revert to night elves, I don't think Night elves should have nightborne slimmer builds, or Nightborne bulkier night elf builds. But I don't think that because Nightborne have tattoos night elves shouldn't, the stuff Nightborne have should reflect their lore and uniqueness regardless of what night elves have. And the stuff night elves have theirs, whether it has similar themes to Nightborne (which are unavoidable given who they are). I respect that they are the same racial group, but at the same time there should be enough to make them feel unique. I'm fine with star magical arcane effects, they look totally different from the Nightborne ones, but :

• Night elves have that strong forest druidic and Star arcane magic thing, also they have the demon hunter aspect and Kaldorei civilization Highborne stuff - their customisations and options should reflect that
• Nightborne have Suramar singular focus and their reintroduction into the world, the Arcan'dor, chronomagic and arcane influence in everything is their signature.
• Blood elves have the Sunwell, fire, Light and blood magic, Quel'thalas and the legacy of the high elf people and all that entails
• Void elves have the void, the high elf remnant, a new direction for their people outside their past and an incredible destiny of wielding void without losing themselves and reconnecting Thalassians with humans and other alliance races.

Night elves and Blood elves are far bigger groups, Nightborne and void elves do focus in on one aspect, there are things there that both night elves and blood elves would have and connect to, but the focus and detail is quite unique.


This is my analysis of the whole situation guys.

[NitaAlexis]

It is quite boring to see the hands that way. They should hurry up or we log out.

[OwenBurton]

You already get that in Azsuna and Val'Sharah.

Azeroth is now above and beyond night elves.
Nazjatar would never have worked as just Night Elves vs Nightborne. It had to involve others.

Obviously, the Horde got it right with the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei. It was great to see both fighting the Naga.

Alliance was obviously wrong, because it was Humans vs Naga (with Shandris.)

And your already involving other races with this idea of a cleansed Tomb of Sargeras. You want Void Elf Priests involved with the Night Elves and Nightborne. So we've got a contradiction right here. It seems to me, that so long as Nightborne aren't with Blood Elves or the Horde, your happy.

Well, with that idea and since Nightborne are more "Mage" inclined, Quel'Thalas should rebuild it's arcane academies and their should be Sin'dorei, Shal'dorei and Forsaken involved with those, but this has the greater emphasis than the Priest thing, because it's Horde races working together and the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei have greater affinity to the Arcane, than they do to Elune.

I've read the posts here again - and I think that given what you state here, it is all the more reason for the elves to reconnect with their ancestral heritage in Zin-Azshari, it was their ancient capital, after all, as Lor'themar himself acknowledged in Nazjatar.

In think in the future:
- Eldre'Thalas (for Mordent Evenshade and his Shen'dralar) and Nar'thalas (for Prince Farondis and his Court) should be restored and revitalized as the "Alliance elven cities of the Highborne" and centers of magical learning
- Suramar (for the nightborne) and Silvermoon (reunited and cleansed, of course) should be their symmetrical counterparts as the "Horde elven cities for the Highborne"

I mean, I look at this more like - what content do we NOT want to go totally wasted and obsolete after a single expansion or so, so it is fun to creatively brainstorm within certain parameters, that is what these threads were usually meant for, even if all this might seem far-fetched at the moment. I think all of you raise fairly valid and interesting points, some I agree with and others, I am less certain right now.

And regarding Nazjatar, I have another proposal, after reading your ideas and those of others here -

The ancient city of Zin-Azshari becomes split in half, as per agreement between the Alliance and Horde elves, not unlike the real-world examples of Korea and Germany, between the rival political factions involved in their conflicts. Azshara is gone, the naga are weakened and leaderless, the four Old Gods have all been slain at this point, no reason for the Alliance and Horde NOT to take advantage of this new situation eventually.

- The night elves and void elves take the western half of the city, and begin developing it according to kaldorei and ren'dorei aesthetics and interests, as a new Alliance hub. Magister Umbric and perhaps Alleria could explore the lingering Void energies, for example, either siphoning them or studying them like at Telogrus. The night elves could befriend their lingering kin, perhaps release them from their torment, and reconnect with old friends and family members.

- The blood elves and nightborne take the eastern half of the city, and begin developing it according to sin'dorei and shal'dorei aesthetics and interests, as a new Horde hub. Oculeth and Valtrois could research their long-lost arcane heritage, much like the blood elves usually do with the Reliquary and in other ancient sites in Kalimdor and elsewhere. Remember, Thalyssra taught pupils there, and Oculeth literally had his personal workshop or something, it was literally their home or at least a place they regularly frequented for centuries. The blood elves could find some of Dath'Remar's old relics and books, and perhaps come to an arrangement with some of the less fanatical naga remaining there, sharing their knowledge and resources with each other.

[Beloren]

@OwenBurton As I said above, if you get nightborne and blood elves involved with Zin'Azshari, it's only fair to expect void elves and night elves involved with Silvermoon and Suramar. Tanaria wants blood elves involved with Zin'Azshari because of connections, but wants neither Void elves nor night elves involved with either Silvermoon or Suramar despite their connections, whiles Ravenmoon wants night elves involved with Suramar and void elves with Silvermoon, but doesn't want nightborne or blood elves involved with Zin'Azshari.

Alanar has a point, keep them as separate as possible. Night elves deal with Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas, Nar'thalas etc those are their things
Blood elves deal with Silvermoon, Quel'danis, Magister' Terrace and Quel'thalas - it's theirs

Nightborne deal with Suramar city - they're a city state it's theirs
void elves with Telogrus rift - it's theirs.


This doesn't discount some nightborne being involved with Zin'Azshari, but it's not anything major at all, just like some night elves like Farodin are involved with Suramar City,, and some high elves like Auric Sunchaser are involved with Silvermoon - this is fine, because it's largely the races for that place involved. It's part of their lore doing so.

With four elven nations, they can have their own independent stories and development. Friendships can be find and even encouraged, but when it comes to each race and things pertaining their history or state then they should command the vast majority of the involvement.

Blood elves are the vast majority of the High elves and hold that legacy, so all of Quel'thalas and Silvermoon etc is mainly them no =t the alliance high elves or void elves.
Void elves despite their connection have Telogrus Rift they can focus on developing their future.

It's the same with the Night group.
Though night elevs of Darnassus once came from Suramar - that's pretty much Nightborne now, yes there will always be a connection, but Night elves can explore Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas, Nar'thalas and up teen number of features, they are a massive race, they don't need to involve Suramar.
nightborne, are like Dalaran, city state, the city is all they have, and all they care about, they wander and explore Azeroth sharing the culture of their city and the ancient elven ways, but Suramar is what they'll give their lives to protect , for the rest, they're just looking and influencing. - it's where they've been for 10,000 years.


Silvermoon is going to be amazing when they redo it, no one would want Zin'Azshari or Suramar or any other city when you see it. I just hope they do something really nice for void elves too, otherwise, "reclaim Silvermoon" would be the next 10 years of forum whinging from alliance fans if blizzard don't do that.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Ok - I can't find the bit where you quoted me, so I'll do it like this.

I was referring to it being a zone, like it was in BFA, but the alliance's story focuses on the Night Elves and Void Elves, with the Horde's counterpart being the Blood Elves and Nightborne.

I've already suggested to Owen, that Zin-Azshari does nothing for the Horde Elves and the Horde playerbase - especially if we get an updated Quel'Thalas. It won't be appreciated because Silvermoon updated has been wanted far more than Zin-Azshari for the Blood Elves and Nightborne.

Plus, Silvermoon serves as the baby "Zin-Azshari" since it was Zin-Azshari Highborne exiles who created the city. So, in a round-about way, Zin-Azshari and Suramar are already united, through the use of Silvermoon and Suramar.
Horde getting Zin-Azshari will NOT have any appreciation - unless you went with Raven and Mace's idea of removing Blood Elves and Nightborne from their cities and nations, which we know won't happen.

[Beloren]

Plus, Silvermoon serves as the baby "Zin-Azshari" since it was Zin-Azshari Highborne exiles who created the city. So, in a round-about way, Zin-Azshari and Suramar are already united, through the use of Silvermoon and Suramar.
Horde getting Zin-Azshari will NOT have any appreciation - unless you went with Raven and Mace's idea of removing Blood Elves and Nightborne from their cities and nations, which we know won't happen.

Indeed, Silvermoon is like the blood elf vision of a new and improved Zin'Azshari, something that will lead to a better elven society, the best ever. Ravenmoon would say it wasn't realised, i would say it hasn't been realised YET !!. But in honest fact I think it is better already, because I like the style more.

Blood elves have made amazing strides recently, and with Nightborne friendship, I'm thinking they could get help and eventually one day outclass what Zin'Azshari was 10,000 years in the lore.

But in practical game graphics terms, the updated Silvermoon i expect to look better than Suramar or Zin'Azshari, because blizzard always do the new one better than the previous one. So I'm very excited. I just wish they'd hurry up and do it. People loved Suramar, but I always preferred Silvermoon. Sure Suramar had newer graphics, but it's style is oldish - like a greco roman city, this is the night elf style.. sure it's beautiful, Silvermoon has a little of that, but also a more modern grander feel with magical floating towers and stuff, also while silvers and purples/blues/pinks are nice.. you can't beat how gorgeous the gold, white and red are. it's a beautiful colour theme. I can't wait for it to be further improved, expanded and made flyable.

night elves can have their zin'Azshari type city, I just think Silvermoon is more unique, nicer and more fitting if done well. It's art, so I guess it's subjective.